A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Whiskeyjack]

I hope not. Either one of them sitting around and counting coppers would be the most bullshit ending GRRM could come up with.

It clearly won't be; though it may be decided on the Trident as well:

That night she dreamt she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

GRRM's epic is meant to mirror the Age of Heroes, which ended with a cataclysm followed by 4,000 years of peace. We're discussing how things are likely to look on the other end of this fast-approaching cataclysm.

 

[woolybug25]

Whiskey. I think missed your calling. You should be a Museum Curator or historian or something.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Whiskey. I think missed your calling. You should be a Museum Curator or historian or something.

Hard to pay the bills that way. Thus I spend 9-5 as a professional sophist. Tending to the beautiful things is sadly a leisure activity.

 

[GATTACA!]

Not Margaery, I don't think. Wouldn't it technically have to be the closest Baratheon male kin to Robert? I have no idea who that is. Gendry? Lol.

If we take a realpolitik view and look to the Lannister side ... not much clearer. Kevan, I guess? Or his surviving boy? Martyn, I think was his name. That seems wrong though.

Well I think it depends if we are talking books or TV show. In the books Tommen is still too young to father a child, in the show they have aged him up and he could plausibly do the deed. If if he where to die before they get it on I think Margaery might claim that she's pregnant just to take over as queen regent and then bang some blonde Rivers or Snow basterd from flee bottom.

 

[Emcee77]

Well I think it depends if we are talking books or TV show. In the books Tommen is still too young to father a child, in the show they have aged him up and he could plausibly do the deed. If if he where to die before they get it on I think Margaery might claim that she's pregnant just to take over as queen regent and then bang some blonde Rivers or Snow basterd from flee bottom.

Yeah, true, I thought of the same thing.

I think that is really the only way she could succeed Tommen. Being the wife of a king counts for nothing; being descended from a king counts for something. So similarly, I don't think the Lannisters have any legitimate claim. There were no Lannister kings with any descendants at all (which matters only if you concede that there Lannister kings, which no one but a Lannister would do). The heir would have to be the closest Baratheon relative or, if there are none, the closest Targaryen relative.

But as a number of posters have pointed out, in the GRRM universe all of this is totally artificial anyway. The Targs only became kings by force, and really Bobby B only became a king by force, his Targ heritage notwithstanding.

 

[phork]

Reddit has multiple threads on Lancel being the next in line.. Obviously with the HS having favour as well.

 

[woolybug25]

Reddit has multiple threads on Lancel being the next in line.. Obviously with the HS having favour as well.

That would please me. That mthrfkr' needs to go.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

New (at least to me) fan theory! The visions of Melisandre and Moqorro in ADwD indicate that Euron is preparing a massive blood ritual that will unleash a kraken upon Old Town.

 

[IrishLion]

I read an article via the dreaded Deadspin today about this.

Apparently, some of the sample chapters from WoW have been patched together, and Aeron has the same visions.

GRRM must have been on a Necronomicon kick when he was writing ADwD.

 

[IrishLax]

New (at least to me) fan theory! The visions of Melisandre and Moqorro in ADwD indicate that Euron is preparing a massive blood ritual that will unleash a kraken upon Old Town.

I read some stuff about that today, specifically talking about the new chapter GRRM read and how apparently Euron really is set up to be a major bad ass with all kinds of baller shit that no one else has (i.e. dragonbinder horn, a suit of Valyrian steel ARMOR, etc.).

The crux of the theory seems to rest on the Drowned God being a real entity.

 

[IrishLax]

I read an article via the dreaded Deadspin today about this.

Apparently, some of the sample chapters from WoW have been patched together, and Aeron has the same visions.

GRRM must have been on a Necronomicon kick when he was writing ADwD.

Son of a bitch beat my post by one minute... I read the exact same article lol...

 

[IrishLion]

Son of a bitch beat my post by one minute... I read the exact same article lol...

Ha, it's actually really intriguing. Euron's history as an explorer through the ruins of Valyria presents some nice mysticism/intrigue, especially when the pervasive belief is supposed to be that anyone who sails too close to the ruins will die because the water is bad or whatever.

Dragonbinder is already a pretty badass creation (it's obviously bad news; burns men up from the inside when they wind the horn; may or may not actually tame dragons), and hearing about an entire suit of Valyrian-steel armor piqued my interest.

My only pause is that I could see Euron being built up into this incredible hero/villain that will crush everyone with his giant god-Cthulu, while simultaneously delivering ships to Danaerys and taking control of her dragons... only to be foiled by the dickless Greyjoy siblings.

I would also say that it feels a bit late in the game for a new big-bad to be introduced, but then again, we haven't even met the Night's King in the books.

 

[Irish YJ]

Dragonbinder - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

 

[GATTACA!]

New (at least to me) fan theory! The visions of Melisandre and Moqorro in ADwD indicate that Euron is preparing a massive blood ritual that will unleash a kraken upon Old Town.

I think it's really interesting that many of the houses, if this turns out to be true, would have actual representations of their sigils at their disposal. The Starks have their direwolves, Dany has her dragons, Euron would have his kraken. I wonder if any other houses will get theirs.

Maybe the Blackfish will command a giant trout, or I would love to see Jorrah riding an armored grizzly bear.

 

[woolybug25]

Ha, it's actually really intriguing. Euron's history as an explorer through the ruins of Valyria presents some nice mysticism/intrigue, especially when the pervasive belief is supposed to be that anyone who sails too close to the ruins will die because the water is bad or whatever.

Dragonbinder is already a pretty badass creation (it's obviously bad news; burns men up from the inside when they wind the horn; may or may not actually tame dragons), and hearing about an entire suit of Valyrian-steel armor piqued my interest.

My only pause is that I could see Euron being built up into this incredible hero/villain that will crush everyone with his giant god-Cthulu, while simultaneously delivering ships to Danaerys and taking control of her dragons... only to be foiled by the dickless Greyjoy siblings.

I would also say that it feels a bit late in the game for a new big-bad to be introduced, but then again, we haven't even met the Night's King in the books.

That could be an interesting redemption arc for Theon.

 

[IrishLion]

Dragonbinder - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

I've read that page before, but it's just now occurring to me that the horn might set up another "Daenerys the unburnt" situation. Blowing the horn burns Euron's crew member from the inside, killing him.

The horn is also inscribed with "Blood for Fire, Fire for Blood." Dany already meets the expectations of the quote, as her entire journey truly began when she gave her blood for the powers of fire. And we know that fire does not harm her.

So, it could play out that Euron (show)/Victarion (books) shows up to use Dragonbinder, only for Daenerys to sound the horn herself, foiling their plot. She won't die from using it, as she is the "unburnt," and it would go to show that her dragons' allegiances won't be turned, even by force, because she is the only mortal capable of being the true master of the horn.

 

[GoIrish41]

What are the known Valyrian steel weapons in the show? By my count, there are four or five. Brienne's Oathkeeper and Tommen's sword, I assume passed down from Joffrey after his death. These two were made when Ned Stark's sword was melted down and repurposed by the Lannister's after Ned's execution. John Snow has one, that was given to him after saving the life of lord commander of the Knight's watch. And now Sam has one that he stole from the mantle of his father. That's four. I've read somewhere the Petyr Baelish's dagger is made of Valyrian steel -- that is five. Are there any more in show that I'm missing? I suspect that they will play a part in the events to come, given their unique qualities against white walkers.

 

[ND NYC]

its always sumthin in westeros

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would also say that it feels a bit late in the game for a new big-bad to be introduced, but then again, we haven't even met the Night's King in the books.

This post on reddit from a couple days ago argues that Tywin was the first big bad (representing political evil), Ramsay is the current big bad (representing human evil), and Euron will be the next big bad (representing divine evil).

Other stuff:

• GRRM just read Aeron's 1st chapter from TWoW at Balticon.
• In that chapter, we learn that Euron has a full suit of Valyrian armor. Based on one of Jon's dreams from ADwD, it's possible that he'll end up wearing it as he fights against the White Walkers.
• GRRM claims that Lady Stoneheart has been cut from the show.
• Jack Bender, the director for S6E6, compares Dany's big speech astride Drogon to Hitler at Nuremberg:

In addition to Hodor’s last act, you shot Daenerys’s big speech on Drogon. In an HBO behind-the-scenes feature, you compared her to Hitler at Nuremberg. Should we be scared of her?

Most of the choices I made were vetted in conversations with David and Dan who have the end game and the overview of the show, which I don’t have. We certainly talked about the fact that this character has risen to this place and is feeling her power, but there is also something about that power—as we know from history and from the world—that can be, “Whoa, that’s a little intimidating.” It was just, let’s let this woman become powerful to the point where it’s real fiery power, and people take from it what they do and the series will go where it goes.

Mad Queen confirmed.

 

[IrishLion]

Other stuff:

• GRRM just read Aeron's 1st chapter from TWoW at Balticon.
• In that chapter, we learn that Euron has a full suit of Valyrian armor. Based on one of Jon's dreams from ADwD, it's possible that he'll end up wearing it as he fights against the White Walkers.
• GRRM claims that Lady Stoneheart has been cut from the show.
• Jack Bender, the director for S6E6, compares Dany's big speech astride Drogon to Hitler at Nuremberg:

Dany as bad guy confirmed.

That would be fascinating imagery. A suit of armor that can't be replicated, "black as smoke," shimmering with Valyrian glyphs and imbued with who-knows-what power... worn by Jon Targaryen, who was dead but never died, aka Azor Ahai, in a fight against the threat from the Land of Always Winter, as he sits upon the back of a dragon.

THAT is the gritty, dark, conflicted, well-armed hero that I can root for.

 

[woolybug25]

That would be fascinating imagery. A suit of armor that can't be replicated, "black as smoke," shimmering with Valyrian glyphs and imbued with who-knows-what power... worn by Jon Targaryen, who was dead but never died, aka Azor Ahai, in a fight against the threat from the Land of Always Winter, as he sits upon the back of a dragon.

THAT is the gritty, dark, conflicted, well-armed hero that I can root for.

This post on reddit from a couple days ago argues that Tywin was the first big bad (representing political evil), Ramsay is the current big bad (representing human evil), and Euron will be the next big bad (representing divine evil).

Other stuff:

• GRRM just read Aeron's 1st chapter from TWoW at Balticon.
• In that chapter, we learn that Euron has a full suit of Valyrian armor. Based on one of Jon's dreams from ADwD, it's possible that he'll end up wearing it as he fights against the White Walkers.
• GRRM claims that Lady Stoneheart has been cut from the show.
• Jack Bender, the director for S6E6, compares Dany's big speech astride Drogon to Hitler at Nuremberg:

Mad Queen confirmed.

Dany has gone too far to have some bastard Targarean come in and take the throne, I could easily see her opposing Jon. That seems pretty logical.

I could see Theon helping to kill Euron, giving the armor to Jon, and pledging to him. It's how he will redeem himself for being a traitor.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Dany has gone too far to have some bastard Targarean come in and take the throne, I could easily see her opposing Jon. That seems pretty logical.

I could see Theon helping to kill Euron, giving the armor to Jon, and pledging to him. It's how he will redeem himself for being a traitor.

 

[wizards8507]

I could see Theon helping to kill Euron, giving the armor to Jon, and pledging to him. It's how he will redeem himself for being a traitor.

Goddamn, GRRM doesn't even need to finish the series. He should just outsource it to The Internet.

 

[IrishLion]

Dany has gone too far to have some bastard Targarean come in and take the throne, I could easily see her opposing Jon. That seems pretty logical.

The pervasive belief is that Jon will be one of Dany's dragonriders... Unless you mean that Dany won't take kindly to Jon Snow being revealed as a Targaryen, and thus a threat to her claim. I never thought of that angle.

I just kind of assumed in my head that Dany would take kindly to Jon Targaryen, considering the only male relationships she has known have been messed up, whereas Jon is about as morally sound as a person in Westeros can get (that isn't already dead). Also, Jon strikes me as a guy that would rather help his aunt sit upon the throne, rather than taking it for himself.

I could see Theon helping to kill Euron, giving the armor to Jon, and pledging to him. It's how he will redeem himself for being a traitor.

Yes.

 

[ACamp1900]

I always wondered why the assumption was the Dragon Riders all had to side with each other long term...

anyway, there are def characters I want to see die and then there are characters I want to just see go away... Danny is somewhere in between those two options... I have never felt any kind of connection or likability for her at all. Her turning all Mad Queen would def fit my image of her and it would be pretty cool so long as she eventually gets her propers... her riding off to the sunset with Jon by her side would be lame imo.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I love this thread.

 

[woolybug25]

The pervasive belief is that Jon will be one of Dany's dragonriders... Unless you mean that Dany won't take kindly to Jon Snow being revealed as a Targaryen, and thus a threat to her claim. I never thought of that angle.

I just kind of assumed in my head that Dany would take kindly to Jon Targaryen, considering the only male relationships she has know have been messed up, whereas Jon is about as morally sound as a person in Westeros can get (that isn't already dead). Also, Jon strikes me as a guy that would rather help his aunt sit upon the throne, rather than taking it for himself.

A few things:

1) It seems like her being the "Mad Queen" villain is all but confirmed. If she ends up being a villain, then she ain't not friend of Jon.
2) With Jon being the only male Targarean (not assuming Tyrion) and with an army built himself (which he's doing now), I don't know how she doesn't see it as a threat. The people will demand it if they see him as the Prince That Was Promised. Just like how Euron Greyjoy was handed his crown, the throne could be Jon's simply by demand of the people.
3) It seems to me, and what do I know, that "somebody" has to be Azor Ahai, and that person isn't going to be a queen's sidekick. Maybe they start boning (in Targarean tradition) and rule together, but I don't see that either (see Acamp's post above).

 

[Whiskeyjack]

A few things:

1) It seems like her being the "Mad Queen" villain is all but confirmed. If she ends up being a villain, then she ain't not friend of Jon.
2) With Jon being the only male Targarean (not assuming Tyrion) and with an army built himself (which he's doing now), I don't know how she doesn't see it as a threat. The people will demand it if they see him as the Prince That Was Promised. Just like how Euron Greyjoy was handed his crown, the throne could be Jon's simply by demand of the people.
3) It seems to me, and what do I know, that "somebody" has to be Azor Ahai, and that person isn't going to be a queen's sidekick. Maybe they start boning (in Targarean tradition) and rule together, but I don't see that either (see Acamp's post above).

The Iron Throne will most likely go to whoever saves Westeros from the approaching ice zombie apocalypse. That's rules out pretty much everyone other than Jon and Dany. There's a mountain of textual evidence suggesting that Jon is the main character, that his is the "Song of Ice and Fire", that he's Azor Ahai, etc. And there are more red flags about Dany with each passing week, so...

 

[wizards8507]

Am I the only one who finds the whole notion of dragon-riding hokey as hell? Aegon riding Balerion the Black Dread and conquering all of Westeros is badass. Dany riding dragons to defeat the white walkers and save humanity (or whatever she wants to use them for) would be like One Direction breaking records originally set by The Beatles.

 

[IrishLion]

Am I the only one who finds the whole notion of dragon-riding hokey as hell? Aegon riding Balerion the Black Dread and conquering all of Westeros is badass. Dany riding dragons to defeat the white walkers and save humanity (or whatever she wants to use them for) would be like One Direction breaking records originally set by The Beatles.

I get what you're saying, but I think part of that is just the mystique of the history of Westeros... You hear about a dragon that is large enough in scale that it's hard to comprehend, and that is badass history that gives you the feels.

In truth, Dany's dragons are probably going to be needed to save the WORLD. Those are higher stakes than conquering Westeros, which is the standard cycle. So while her dragons aren't as awe-inspiring as other dragons of "history," they will likely go down as the most important, so I give some of the hokiness a pass.

The part I struggle with is that Dany just seems out of place when she rides... I will put more stock into the idea of Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal being ridden by humans when I see that the dragons have been outfitted with special saddles or even armor of some sort. It will feel more *real* to me at that point.