A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

Here's the quote. First, it's obviously tongue-in-cheek; and second, "GRRM's on record somewhere as saying..." has never been less authoritative, and it carries less weight with each new episode.

Based on the recent reveals about the origins of the White Walkers, it looks like our expectations about GRRM being this master subverter of fantasy tropes are unrealistic. This is still a story with protagonists and antagonists, and though some plot arcs will surely have a bittersweet ending, I doubt GRRM is so dedicated to being unpredictable that he's going to turn his magnum opus into a 2.5 million-word troll job wherein everyone dies at the end.

So, in general, you're taking the approach that these plot points in the show will translate to the page? I'm not convinced.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So, in general, you're taking the approach that these plot points in the show will translate to the page? I'm not convinced.

Most of this stuff-- Cleganebowl, Red Wedding 2.0, Jon resurrecting and ending his watch, etc.--has been borderline canon among fan theories for years because it has tons of textual support in the books.

It's possible that Benioff and Weis listened to GRRM's completely unpredictable version, read the fan theories, and decided the latter were better. But it's much more likely that GRRM foreshadowed every major plot development, fans have already guessed them (since he left us with nothing else to do for years on end), and now we're getting the Reader's Digest version on screen.

 

[IrishLion]

Here's the quote. First, it's obviously tongue-in-cheek; and second, "GRRM's on record somewhere as saying..." has never been less authoritative, and it carries less weight with each new episode.

Based on the recent reveals about the origins of the White Walkers, it looks like our expectations about GRRM being this master subverter of fantasy tropes are unrealistic. This is still a story with protagonists and antagonists, and though some plot arcs will surely have a bittersweet ending, I doubt GRRM is so dedicated to being unpredictable that he's going to turn his magnum opus into a 2.5 million-word troll job wherein everyone dies at the end.

I had never seen the direct quote, but I had read about it through a second-hand source that implied that the quote was a serious discussion on how GRRM envisioned the end. Wasn't I played for a fool.

 

[IrishLion]

Also, taking the Riverlands storyline (the Siege of Riverrun) from AFfC and using it so late in the show allows a few things to happen.

First, it keeps Jaime busy and away from King's Landing, where perhaps his redemptive character arc can actually begin, despite Cersei's motivational speech in the last episode.

It also sets the stage for Red Wedding 2.0 in a broad way, which seems more clear now with Walder Frey's re-introduction to the show. They didn't *need* to show him talking to his sons about re-taking Riverrun, considering Jaime is on the way to save the day. And yet they did.

I assume this means that Jaime will grow as a character on the screen, realizing that he can use Edmure and come to terms in re-taking Riverrun, rather than just fighting about it. As in the books, Riverrun is turned over to Lannister/Frey control, while the Blackfish escapes. The plot goes further than the books, though, when part of the negotiations include the news that Walder Frey will have his wedding in Riverrun. The Blackfish will take this news to the Brotherhood as part of his escape, and the Brotherhood will infiltrate/make plans/execute Red Wedding 2.0.

I'm guessing that Jaime will leave the successful siege to find the Brotherhood just as he does in the books... only he won't find them, because they will find their way into Riverrun the same way Blackfish retook it, via secret passage (as it was clearly mentioned in the show), or else they somehow embedded themselves with Lannister/Frey forces during the siege to begin with.

Jaime will then hightail it back to Riverrun when he hears the news of the Frey/Lannister alliance having officially crumbled, only to find that he is too late and is intercepted by Lady Stoneheart. This sets the stage for 1) his death OR 2) his fully-realized character redemption, as he swears loyalty to Lady Stonheart.

 

[wizards8507]

Also, taking the Riverlands storyline (the Siege of Riverrun) from AFfC and using it so late in the show allows a few things to happen.

First, it keeps Jaime busy and away from King's Landing, where perhaps his redemptive character arc can actually begin, despite Cersei's motivational speech in the last episode.

It also sets the stage for Red Wedding 2.0 in a broad way, which seems more clear now with Walder Frey's re-introduction to the show. They didn't *need* to show him talking to his sons about re-taking Riverrun, considering Jaime is on the way to save the day. And yet they did.

I assume this means that Jaime will grow as a character on the screen, realizing that he can use Edmure and come to terms in re-taking Riverrun, rather than just fighting about it. As in the books, Riverrun is turned over to Lannister/Frey control, while the Blackfish escapes. The plot goes further than the books, though, when part of the negotiations include the news that Walder Frey will have his wedding in Riverrun. The Blackfish will take this news to the Brotherhood as part of his escape, and the Brotherhood will infiltrate/make plans/execute Red Wedding 2.0.

I'm guessing that Jaime will leave the successful siege to find the Brotherhood just as he does in the books... only he won't find them, because they will find their way into Riverrun the same way Blackfish retook it, via secret passage (as it was clearly mentioned in the show), or else they somehow embedded themselves with Lannister/Frey forces during the siege to begin with.

Jaime will then hightail it back to Riverrun when he hears the news of the Frey/Lannister alliance having officially crumbled, only to be intercepted by Lady Stoneheart. This sets the stage for 1) his death OR 2) his fully-realized character redemption, as he swears loyalty to Lady Stonheart.

I think the problem with the narrative organization is that we've seen too much of the White Walkers and dragons for anyone to care about the Riverlands. The show-only people aren't going to give a shit about the Blackfish when they've seen the Massacre at Hardhome and the cave of the three-eyed raven in all sorts of detail.

The beauty of the books is that you can engross yourself in the politics of the Seven Kingdoms while knowing that the existential threat is lurking menacingly beyond the wall. In the show, that threat is smack in the foreground so it's going to be hard to care about anything else.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I had never seen the direct quote, but I had read about it through a second-hand source that implied that the quote was a serious discussion on how GRRM envisioned the end. Wasn't I played for a fool.

I believed it too when I first heard about it. Sounds like something GRRM would do.

 

[ACamp1900]

I doubt GRRM is so dedicated to being unpredictable that he's going to turn his magnum opus into a 2.5 million-word troll job wherein everyone dies at the end.

Ha, funny, because I can TOTALLY see him doing something like this just for that very reason... lol

 

[ND NYC]

unless GRRM can be resurrected like Jon Snow there's no way we see a book 7.

 

[GATTACA!]

Whenever I see her on a talk show or something I am shocked she got this part at all. She has a really funny, zany personality that is perfect for a rom com but not so queenly, really. I sometimes wonder if, when they cast Dany, they were focusing too much on Season 1 and not enough on later seasons, when she would have to act like a queen. To be fair, I think she is generally pretty good, but every now and then her queenly scenes feel a little silly.

On the other hand, maybe that's thematically appropriate. Dany wasn't really raised to be a queen, so there's no reason it should necessarily seem to come naturally to her.

She wasn't supposed to play Daenerys originally. Another actress played that part in the pilot HBO green lit. The other actress, Tamzin Merchant, chose to take another role IIRC. I've never had an issue with Emilia Clarke's take on the character and I think the other actress was even less suited for the role.

Half the time I'm not even focussed on what Dany is saying she's so damn hot.

 

[Emcee77]

She wasn't supposed to play Daenerys originally. Another actress played that part in the pilot HBO green lit. The other actress, Tamzin Merchant, chose to take another role IIRC. I've never had an issue with Emilia Clarke's take on the character and I think the other actress was even less suited for the role.

Half the time I'm not even focussed on what Dany is saying she's so damn hot.

Oh I didn't know that history. Interesting.

 

[IrishLion]

If Tommen bites the dust, who sits on the Iron Throne? Margaery?

 

[gkIrish]

If Tommen bites the dust, who sits on the Iron Throne? Margaery?

Technically I think it would be Jon Snow lol

 

[Emcee77]

It's possible that Benioff and Weis listened to GRRM's completely unpredictable version, read the fan theories, and decided the latter were better. But it's much more likely that GRRM foreshadowed every major plot development, fans have already guessed them (since he left us with nothing else to do for years on end), and now we're getting the Reader's Digest version on screen.

This is the sort of stuff that I keep thinking about, especially after reading this article:
How Does Game of Thrones Author George R.R. Martin Really Feel About T | Vanity Fair

So, we know that Benioff and Weis pumped GRRM mercilessly for info about where the series is headed, and he obliged them by providing a lot of the info they asked for. We now know that the show has begun to reveal some of that information.

There are just so many questions that raises at this point.

The big one is, Will GRRM depart from his plan for the last two books, as he has suggested he might (by using a character the show has killed off, for example)? If so, will it be because he hates that the show has stolen some of his thunder, or will it be because he was never married to the plan in the first place? Will he depart from his plans on any major issues, or only minor ones, if at all?

Then there's the matter of the fan theories confirmed by the show. As Whiskey wrote, it could be--and it's most likely, imo--that the fan theories were just right because GRRM had signaled where he was going. It's also possible that Benioff and Weiss heard GRRM's plan, heard the fan theories, preferred the fan theories, and chose to go with the fan theories in a give-the-people-what-they-want spirit.

It's also possible on some of this stuff that GRRM never told them which way he was going to go; who knows how much Benioff and Weiss thought to ask when they had the chance, which may have been 6 years ago, at a time when it may not have seemed as likely that the show might outstrip the books? (Or does GRRM have a continuing obligation to provide them with info about his plans for the books? I don't know what the business arrangement is.)

That's where it gets REALLY interesting for me. If you are in Benioff and Weiss's position, how tempted are you to fill in gaps in the narrative arc, as GRRM related it to you, with ideas you got from the fans??

I don't know if I remember a pop-cultural narrative phenomenon where I thought it might be plausible that the fans could be influencing the direction of the narrative in quite this way.

 

[woolybug25]

Technically I think it would be Jon Snow lol

Technically, assuming his lineage, the throne should already be his.

 

[IrishLion]

Technically I think it would be Jon Snow lol

Technically, assuming his lineage, the throne should already be his.

LAX answered in the other thread and I also gave some thoughts there, but I think it may be Jaime now that he's no longer Kingsguard... his ability to hold land and titles should be restored with the demotion, and he would be the eldest living male relative of Tommen.

 

[wizards8507]

Technically, assuming his lineage, the throne should already be his.

Only if Rheagar and Lyanna got married. Otherwise he's still a bastard, even if a royal bastard.

 

[Emcee77]

If Tommen bites the dust, who sits on the Iron Throne? Margaery?

Not Margaery, I don't think. Wouldn't it technically have to be the closest Baratheon male kin to Robert? I have no idea who that is. Gendry? Lol.

If we take a realpolitik view and look to the Lannister side ... not much clearer. Kevan, I guess? Or his surviving boy? Martyn, I think was his name. That seems wrong though.

 

[Emcee77]

Not Margaery, I don't think. Wouldn't it technically have to be the closest Baratheon male kin to Robert? I have no idea who that is. Gendry? Lol.

If we take a realpolitik view and look to the Lannister side ... not much clearer. Kevan, I guess? Or his surviving boy? Martyn, I think was his name. That seems wrong though.

LAX answered in the other thread and I also gave some thoughts there, but I think it may be Jaime now that he's no longer Kingsguard... his ability to hold land and titles should be restored with the demotion, and he would be the eldest living male relative of Tommen.

Oh right.

 

[woolybug25]

Only if Rheagar and Lyanna got married. Otherwise he's still a bastard, even if a royal bastard.

Where has been said that marriage mattered?

 

[wizards8507]

Where has been said that marriage mattered?

If we're talking about the "legitimate" line of succession, you need to be a trueborn male, unless legitimized by the lord.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If Tommen bites the dust, who sits on the Iron Throne? Margaery?

Bobby B was crowned king after the rebellion primarily because the Baratheons had the best "claim" via Targaryen lineage. So I think it'd be Jon if Rhaegar married Lyanna prior to getting hammered on the Trident; if not, then Dany.

 

[IrishLion]

Bobby B was crowned king after the rebellion primarily because the Baratheons had the best "claim" via Targaryen lineage. So I think it'd be Jon if Rhaegar married Lyanna prior to getting hammered on the Trident; if not, then Dany.

So the rebellion was in order to de-throne and eradicate the Targaryens... but they still set the precedent for succession? Very hypocritical, but perfectly Westerosi.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So the rebellion was in order to de-throne and eradicate the Targaryens... but they still set the precedent for succession? Very hypocritical, but perfectly Westerosi.

Yup:

As Rhaegar's second cousin, excluding Prince Viserys and Princess Daenerys, Robert was next in line for the Iron Throne via grandmother Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of King Aegon V. This was a much stronger claim to the throne than the Arryns, Tullys or Starks.

 

[wizards8507]

So the rebellion was in order to de-throne and eradicate the Targaryens... but they still set the precedent for succession? Very hypocritical, but perfectly Westerosi.

Even if they don't set the precedent for succession and we consider Robert "king zero" in the new line, the Baratheon line's closest relatives would be... the Targaryens. Dany could claim the throne on the same basis that Robert used and she wouldn't need to name him "usurper" in the process.

I also don't know that it's ever been resolved whether a woman or a non-legitimized bastard could EVER have a claim, regardless of bloodline.

 

[woolybug25]

If we're talking about the "legitimate" line of succession, you need to be a trueborn male, unless legitimized by the lord.

I think you're wrong here.

A bastard may inherit if the father has no other trueborn children nor any other likely kin to follow him.

Bastardy - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

In this case, this would mean Jon Snow is in line. There are no Targarean males

 

[wizards8507]

I think you're wrong here.

Bastardy - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

In this case, this would mean Jon Snow is in line. There are no Targarean males

If bastards are on the table, Gendry is more direct than Jon Snow. Gendry is the son of the former king and bastard brother of the current king. Jon Snow is the son of a prince who never sat the throne.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Even if they don't set the precedent for succession and we consider Robert "king zero" in the new line, the Baratheon line's closest relatives would be... the Targaryens. Dany could claim the throne on the same basis that Robert used and she wouldn't need to name him "usurper" in the process.

I also don't know that it's ever been resolved whether a woman or a non-legitimized bastard could EVER have a claim, regardless of bloodline.

It's probably not worth debating the Westerosi lines of succession, given GRRM's perspective on the issue:

Varys: "In a room sit three great men, a king, a priest, and a rich man with his gold. Between them stands a sellsword, a little man of common birth and no great mind. Each of the great ones bids him slay the other two. 'Do it,' says the king, 'for I am your lawful ruler.' 'Do it,' says the priest, 'for I command you in the names of the gods.' 'Do it,' says the rich man, 'and all this gold shall be yours.' So tell me- who lives and who dies?"
...

Varys - "Perchance you have considered the riddle I posed you that day in the inn?"
Tyrion - "It has crossed my mind a time or two. The king, the priest, the rich man-who lives and who dies? Who will the swordsman obey? It's a riddle without an answer, or rather, too many answers. All depends on the man with the sword."
Varys - "And yet he is no one. He has neither crown nor gold nor favor of the gods, only a piece of pointed steel."
Tyrion - "That piece of steel is the power of life and death."
Varys - "Just so . . . yet if it is the swordsmen who rule us in truth, why do we pretend our kings hold the power? Why should a strong man with a sword ever obey a child king like Joffrey, or a wine-sodden oaf like his father?"
Tyrion - "Because these child kings and drunken oafs can call other strong men, with other swords."
Varys - "Then these other swordsmen have the true power. Or do they? Whence came their swords? Why do they obey? Some say knowledge is power. Some tell us that all power comes from the gods. Others say it derives from law. Yet that day on the steps of Baelor's Sept, our godly High Septon and the lawful Queen Regent and your ever so-knowledgeable servant were as powerless as any cobbler or cooper in the crowd. Who truly killed Eddard Stark do you think? Joffrey, who gave the command? Ser Ilyn Payne, who swung the sword? Or . . . another?"
Tyrion - "Did you mean to answer your damned riddle, or only to make my head ache worse?"
Varys - "Here, then. Power resides where men believe it resides. No more and no less."
Tyrion - "So power is a mummer's trick?"
Varys - "A shadow on the wall, yet shadows can kill. And oft times a very small man can cast a very large shadow."
Tyrion - "Lord Varys, I am growing strangely fond of you. I may kill you yet, but I think I'd feel sad about it."

Bobby B won the throne on the Trident with his warhammer. Dany or Jon will win it in a similar fashion.

 

[woolybug25]

If bastards are on the table, Gendry is more direct than Jon Snow. Gendry is the son of the former king and bastard brother of the current king. Jon Snow is the son of a prince who never sat the throne.

"Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

Good point, but I think then it would come down to what family has legitimate right to the throne. The Targareans clearly don't think the Baratheons have right to the throne. Which is funny, as in the books the family was founded by Orys Bareatheon, who was rumored to be half Targarean himself.

The more I dive into the family tree, I really don't see how any without clear Targarean bloodline has right to the throne.

 

[wizards8507]

Bobby B won the throne on the Trident with his warhammer. Dany or Jon will win it in a similar fashion.

I hope not. Either one of them sitting around and counting coppers would be the most bullshit ending GRRM could come up with.

The more I dive into the family tree, I really don't see how any without clear Targarean bloodline has right to the throne.

To Whiskey's point, the Targs united the Seven Kingdoms by force in the first place, so nobody's claim is actually legitimate. We're not talking "consent of the governed" social compact theory here.

 

[woolybug25]

To Whiskey's point, the Targs united the Seven Kingdoms by force in the first place, so nobody's claim is actually legitimate. We're not talking "consent of the governed" social compact theory here.

Oh, I totally agree with him. It's a fact actually, BobbyB as evidence.

I'm talking about who has the "right" to the throne. Not who can claim it.