A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[wizards8507]

Benioff and Weis commented on that scene by pointing out that Sansa is starting the see the world from Littlefinger's perspective ("playing the game"), and that her decision to lie about where she received that intel indicates that she doesn't fully trust Jon.

I consider myself an astute consumer of media, particularly genre-based entertainment. If I need to watch a show's creators explain plot points and character motivations in some kind of "behind the scenes" post-show, then they're doing it wrong.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I consider myself an astute consumer of media, particularly genre-based entertainment. If I need to watch a show's creators explain plot points and character motivations in some kind of "behind the scenes" post-show, then they're doing it wrong.

Your interpretation was plausible. Just pointing out that Corry's concerns were completely confirmed by the producers.

 

[wizards8507]

Your interpretation was plausible. Just pointing out that Corry's concerns were completely confirmed by the producers.

Understood. My point is simply that there are a lot of smart people confused by what's going on in the program, so I can't imagine how lost the dumb viewers must be.

 

[phillyirish]

Benioff and Weis commented on that scene by pointing out that Sansa is starting the see the world from Littlefinger's perspective ("playing the game"), and that her decision to lie about where she received that intel indicates that she doesn't fully trust Jon.

Wait what? Then what was that whole ordeal between her and Brienne? Where she says Jon's my brother, Jons different, I trust Jon"??? Or some sort. I call BS on their reasoning and they're either intentionally misleading or just full of sh*t.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Wait what? Then what was that whole ordeal between her and Brienne? Where she says Jon's my brother, Jons different, I trust Jon"??? Or some sort. I call BS on their reasoning and they're either intentionally misleading or just full of sh*t.

Listen to it yourself:

"If she really trusted Jon... she would tell the truth to her brother... but for whatever reason, she holds back on that, and I think that shows that Littlefinger still has some kind of a hold on Sansa."

 

[IrishLion]

She's trying to be like Littlefinger, but she also can't show that she trusts him, because if it turns out bad, it's all on her.

By saying she heard the news from Ramsay, it clears her of responsibility.

I didn't read from the situation/acting that she had trust issues with Jon at all. I read that she is worried that she's placing her trust in Littlefinger once again, because she is aware that she might be making a poor decision.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

GRRM just confirmed that Brienne is descended from Ser Duncan the Tall.

 

[IrishLax]

One dragon rider down, two to go...

Interesting how everything is pivoting towards the Riverlands. Could we see Lady Stoneheart? Brotherhood without Banners was mentioned...

 

[zelezo vlk]

One dragon rider down, two to go...

Interesting how everything is pivoting towards the Riverlands. Could we see Lady Stoneheart? Brotherhood without Banners was mentioned...

If you're meaning the show, I thought it was confirmed that Lady Stoneheart was not going to happen.

 

[IrishLion]

One dragon rider down, two to go...

Interesting how everything is pivoting towards the Riverlands. Could we see Lady Stoneheart? Brotherhood without Banners was mentioned...

The siege at Riverrun was in Feast for Crows, so I'm wondering what new plot point they're bringing to the table through the ordeal. In the books, prisoner Edmure convinces Blackfish to give up the castle, but the Blackfish escapes. I wonder if they're changing the outcome, or if it will remain the same and Jaime will go on to find the Brotherhood Without Banners.

 

[IrishLax]

If you're meaning the show, I thought it was confirmed that Lady Stoneheart was not going to happen.

Or is she!?!?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Or is she!?!?

 

[phillyirish]

If you're meaning the show, I thought it was confirmed that Lady Stoneheart was not going to happen.

Yea sucks that Jon Snow was confirmed dead too, really gonna miss him.

 

[phillyirish]

One dragon rider down, two to go...

Interesting how everything is pivoting towards the Riverlands. Could we see Lady Stoneheart? Brotherhood without Banners was mentioned...

Apparently in the season preview their is a scene in which a hooded figure approached Littlefinger, terrifying him when they drop their hood. Didn't see it so can't confirm.

Really wasn't expecting Benjen, it might be a little overbearing if they bring back him Caitlyn, Jon, and possibly the Hound all from the "dead" in one season.

 

[gkIrish]

Apparently in the season preview their is a scene in which a hooded figure approached Littlefinger, terrifying him when they drop their hood. Didn't see it so can't confirm.

Really wasn't expecting Benjen, it might be a little overbearing if they bring back him Caitlyn, Jon, and possibly the Hound all from the "dead" in one season.

I will be so disappointed if we don't get Cleganebowl.

 

[woolybug25]

I will be so disappointed if we don't get Cleganebowl.

I know what the Cleganebowl is, but I can't bring myself to read what the details until I know if will be on the show. I'm assuming that it is an actual scene in the book and someone wins, correct?

 

[gkIrish]

Only two complaints this week:

1) Emilia Clarke's acting. That speech was so bad I couldn't take her seriously at all. She is generally a pretty good actress despite her character sucking but in this particular episode I just couldn't...

2) I feel like the Tommen brainwashing happened wayyy too quickly. I get that Maergery made an unspoken deal with the Septon to get herself out of prison in exchange for helping brainwash Tommen (at least that's what I'm assuming happened), but I still had a huh? reaction to him stepping out of the Sept. It achieved the intended effect of surprising the audience, but didn't make a lot of sense based on what we have seen so far.

 

[gkIrish]

I know what the Cleganebowl is, but I can't bring myself to read what the details until I know if will be on the show. I'm assuming that it is an actual scene in the book and someone wins, correct?

Cleganebowl has not happened in the books. It's hinted at but nothing yet.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Only two complaints this week:

1) Emilia Clarke's acting. That speech was so bad I couldn't take her seriously at all. She is generally a pretty good actress despite her character sucking but in this particular episode I just couldn't...

2) I feel like the Tommen brainwashing happened wayyy too quickly. I get that Maergery made an unspoken deal with the Septon to get herself out of prison in exchange for helping brainwash Tommen (at least that's what I'm assuming happened), but I still had a huh? reaction to him stepping out of the Sept. It achieved the intended effect of surprising the audience, but didn't make a lot of sense based on what we have seen so far.

Glad I'm not the only one. I'm not sure how uh great her acting is to begin with. That scene was horribad

 

[phillyirish]

Only two complaints this week:

1) Emilia Clarke's acting. That speech was so bad I couldn't take her seriously at all. She is generally a pretty good actress despite her character sucking but in this particular episode I just couldn't...

2) I feel like the Tommen brainwashing happened wayyy too quickly. I get that Maergery made an unspoken deal with the Septon to get herself out of prison in exchange for helping brainwash Tommen (at least that's what I'm assuming happened), but I still had a huh? reaction to him stepping out of the Sept. It achieved the intended effect of surprising the audience, but didn't make a lot of sense based on what we have seen so far.

This better be true because after last week her talk with her brother and staying strong to this weeks reversal, it kind of confused me. Doesn't help that I skipped like half of the scene tonight cause I can't stand Tommen or the High Sparrow. The high Sparrow just bores me to death in a reminiscent way of Denyreas in that he repeats the same sh*t over and over again. And then Tommen, with the solid improvement by the Bran and Sansa actors, he really remains the only truly sh*t actor on the show.

 

[phork]

This better be true because after last week her talk with her brother and staying strong to this weeks reversal, it kind of confused me. Doesn't help that I skipped like half of the scene tonight cause I can't stand Tommen or the High Sparrow. The high Sparrow just bores me to death in a reminiscent way of Denyreas in that he repeats the same sh*t over and over again. And then Tommen, with the solid improvement by the Bran and Sansa actors, he really remains the only truly sh*t actor on the show.

I think the High Sparrow is a really well done character. Because just whenever someone thinks they have him he gets all smug and they don't.

 

[phork]

If you're meaning the show, I thought it was confirmed that Lady Stoneheart was not going to happen.

There was a season synopsis from October that was "leaked" that had LSH in it.

 

[wizards8507]

Someone help me out.

CotF create the white walkers by stabbing a man with dragonglass. Then a white walker stabs Benjen. He is saved from becoming a wight by... a CotF stabbing him with dragonglass?

That's just lazy plot. I think a bigger shame is the flattening of Jamie and Cersei's characters. He's supposed to have this great redemption arc while she descends into madness.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

 

[IrishLion]

Someone help me out.

CotF create the white walkers by stabbing a man with dragonglass. Then a white walker stabs Benjen. He is saved from becoming a wight by... a CotF stabbing him with dragonglass?

That's just lazy plot. I think a big shame is the flattening of Jamie and Cersei's characters. He's supposed to have this great redemption arc while she descends into madness.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.

I think dragon glass is just kind of the ultimate utility tool for the use of magic. It's used for several things throughout the series. I think it "concentrates" the magic used for various acts, like a conductor. It's not responsible for the acts themselves, if that makes sense.

For example, a CotF uses it to create a White Walker, concentrating their idea and power through the glass.

Similarly, someone at the Citadel concentrates power and magic through dragon glass to view the events of the world.

 

[IrishLion]

The buzz online is that: (1) Cersei mentioning that her ordeal will be trial by combat is further confirmation of Clegane Bowl; and (2) Walder Frey pointing out the specific family members who killed Rob and Catelyn (as well as how much trouble the Brotherhood Without Banners is causing) is a strong indication that Lady Stoneheart will make an appearance at some point.

Along with Benjen Coldhands, this all points to fans having already guessed most of the remaining plot reveals (and GRRM shamelessly lying to preserve some sense of anticipation), or Benioff and Weis deciding to finish the series with some major fan service. Can't complain either way.

I just wonder if there are plot reveals left waiting in the wings (aside from R+L=J) that we have no clue about yet.

I can't imagine anything introduced in "Winds of Winter" or "Dream of Spring" will be new plot ideas that didn't have any previous clues embedded in the text, but you never know with GRRM. He could randomly have the jungle-dwelling, poison-loving natives of Sothoryos show up and wreck everybody based on some infinitesimal clues he buried somewhere that he retcons into the plot somehow.

Also, it's clear that R+L=J is the one BIG reveal left in the book series (and the show still)... but we don't 100% know what the payoff is supposed to be in that regard yet, which still has me excited to read the remaining books (if they are ever published). I know the show will get there first, but GRRM's books touch on so much unspoken history and so many intricate details that the show simply can't fit in, and I think they will make Jon's reveal much more satisfying.

We don't know whether Jon being Ice and Fire means he ends the threat of the White Walkers and the Dragons, or whether it means he will reign Danaerys in and marry a Targ as in the times of old, or whether it's just a setup for major heartbreak when he dies along with everyone else in the end and no one but some random farmer is left standing.

 

[wizards8507]

We don't know whether Jon being Ice and Fire means he ends the threat of the White Walkers and the Dragons, or whether it means he will reign Danaerys in and marry a Targ as in the times of old, or whether it's just a setup for major heartbreak when he dies along with everyone else in the end and no one but some random farmer is left standing.

I think this is what I'm looking forward to uncovering the most. GRRM has made a name for himself by deliberately contradicting various tropes of the fantasy genre. I'll be fascinated to see whether his endgame includes an elegant, symmetrical solution or if he subverts expectations once again and leaves the Seven Kingdoms in a mess.

 

[IrishLion]

I think this is what I'm looking forward to uncovering the most. GRRM has made a name for himself by deliberately contradicting various tropes of the fantasy genre. I'll be fascinated to see whether his endgame includes an elegant, symmetrical solution or if he subverts expectations once again and leaves the Seven Kingdoms in a mess.

I think he's on record somewhere as saying that he plans on leaving what is essentially a post-apocalyptic landscape when it's all said and done, and that few (if any) major characters will be left standing in the waste. He also said that there won't be much of what fans consider a "satisfying" resolution... it's just going to be the desolate remains of everyone fighting it out in the end.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that we won't get some satisfying resolutions along the way, but it's interesting that GRRM at least initially planned for almost no one to be left standing at the conclusion of the books. The title of the final book makes sense, when you consider that the series will probably end with everyone having wiped themselves out during Winter, leaving the destroyed remnants of society waiting to regrow civilization as they knew it while "Dreaming of Spring."

 

[Emcee77]

Only two complaints this week:

1) Emilia Clarke's acting. That speech was so bad I couldn't take her seriously at all. She is generally a pretty good actress despite her character sucking but in this particular episode I just couldn't...

2) I feel like the Tommen brainwashing happened wayyy too quickly. I get that Maergery made an unspoken deal with the Septon to get herself out of prison in exchange for helping brainwash Tommen (at least that's what I'm assuming happened), but I still had a huh? reaction to him stepping out of the Sept. It achieved the intended effect of surprising the audience, but didn't make a lot of sense based on what we have seen so far.

Whenever I see her on a talk show or something I am shocked she got this part at all. She has a really funny, zany personality that is perfect for a rom com but not so queenly, really. I sometimes wonder if, when they cast Dany, they were focusing too much on Season 1 and not enough on later seasons, when she would have to act like a queen. To be fair, I think she is generally pretty good, but every now and then her queenly scenes feel a little silly.

On the other hand, maybe that's thematically appropriate. Dany wasn't really raised to be a queen, so there's no reason it should necessarily seem to come naturally to her.

 

[wizards8507]

Whenever I see her on a talk show or something I am shocked she got this part at all. She has a really funny, zany personality that is perfect for a rom com but not so queenly, really. I sometimes wonder if, when they cast Dany, they were focusing too much on Season 1 and not enough on later seasons, when she would have to act like a queen. To be fair, I think she is generally pretty good, but every now and then her queenly scenes feel a little silly.

On the other hand, maybe that's thematically appropriate. Dany wasn't really raised to be a queen, so there's no reason it should necessarily seem to come naturally to her.

She's a shit queen in the books, too. So that kind of fits.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I think he's on record somewhere as saying that he plans on leaving what is essentially a post-apocalyptic landscape when it's all said and done, and that few (if any) major characters will be left standing in the waste. He also said that there won't be much of what fans consider a "satisfying" resolution... it's just going to be the desolate remains of everyone fighting it out in the end.

EDIT: That doesn't mean that we won't get some satisfying resolutions along the way, but it's interesting that GRRM at least initially planned for almost no one to be left standing at the conclusion of the books. The title of the final book makes sense, when you consider that the series will probably end with everyone having wiped themselves out during Winter, leaving the destroyed remnants of society waiting to regrow civilization as they knew it while "Dreaming of Spring."

Here's the quote. First, it's obviously tongue-in-cheek; and second, "GRRM's on record somewhere as saying..." has never been less authoritative, and it carries less weight with each new episode.

Based on the recent reveals about the origins of the White Walkers, it looks like our expectations about GRRM being this master subverter of fantasy tropes are unrealistic. This is still a story with protagonists and antagonists, and though some plot arcs will surely have a bittersweet ending, I doubt GRRM is so dedicated to being unpredictable that he's going to turn his magnum opus into a 2.5 million-word troll job wherein everyone dies at the end.