[NFL] vBook: Colts vs Patriots (Deflategate)

[GoldenDome]

You think the 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals timed their ruling to boost TV ratings...?

I think it is very plausible the NFL timed the court dates so that a result could break within a certain amount of time before the draft.

 

[DomerInHappyValley]

FFS already balls were deflated balls weren't deflated.
I really don't care anymore.
This case is dragging on longer than it takes Martin to finish a book series.

 

[Irish YJ]

And this is different from what would have happened regardless how???

Not sure he will be booed by all (at least on this topic).
I'm thinking some folks were like

I was surprised to see the majority of the folks in the office (ATL) happy of the news.

And I think there is a large portion of the US that just wants this all to be done with. I personally hope this is the end of it, but I'm sure we'll see coverage for months, and perhaps another round...

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

I think it is very plausible the NFL timed the court dates so that a result could break within a certain amount of time before the draft.

That's not how court scheduling works

 

[irishfan]

Brady, NFLPA should definitely pursue a rehearing before the full Second Circuit | ProFootballTalk

Good info in here regarding the next move for Brady.

 

[NDbrbkny]

ted wells needs to be disbarred because anytime he investigates with the nfl you can bet for sure it's in favor of the nfl also he practices law in NY NJ and DC so if you want to file a complaint to get him disbarred file it with the state bar assocation pats fans

 

[NorthDakota]

News breaks before NFL draft....hmmmm

Goodell will be booed, but ratings through the roof. Brilliant.

Since I imagine few New England fans will be in Chicago because A.) no first round pick and B.) its in Chicago, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see my man Goodell get some cheers.

 

[irishfan]

Tom Brady of New England Patriots files appeal of court decision that upheld four-game suspension for Deflategate

The court upheld Brady's suspension in a 2-1 decision April 25, deciding that commissioner Roger Goodell's discipline was properly grounded in the collective bargaining agreement and that Brady was treated fairly.

Brady will appeal en banc, asking the entire panel of the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to participate in the hearing. Seven of the 13 judges would have to agree that an en banc session is the right decision before a hearing is held.

If the en banc session isn't granted, Brady could take his case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Olson told ESPN's "Mike & Mike" that he expects the appellate court to move quickly on a ruling on the hearing. If necessary, he said attorneys will consider asking the court for a stay. That would freeze action in the case and allow Brady to play if the case continues closer to the season.

Monday is the final day for Brady and his legal team to file an appeal after they received a two-week extension from the initial May 9 deadline.

The NFLPA added Olson to its legal team defending Brady days after the court's ruling. Olson has argued 62 cases in the Supreme Court, including the two Bush v. Gore cases arising out of the 2000 presidential election. He has prevailed in more than 75 percent of those arguments.

Wonder if it will get heard. I think it will. When you throw in the original court case, 4 judges have heard all the facts and it's 2-2. They don't usually like to hear an appeal, but the 1 judge who sided with Brady last time was the Chief Judge. I think they'll be granted an appeal. The combination of how close these two earlier decisions were plus the stacked lawyer teams on both sides will definitely be intriguing.

From what I've read online, he will probably play all of 2016 if he's granted the appeal since it most likely won't be heard until after the season. There is some conflicting info out there about that though.

 

[irishfan]

Tom Brady suspension: Deflategate appeal has long odds

Actual legal info regarding the appeal for anyone who still cares about this story at this point.

 

[Irish#1]

At this point I don't care. Let him play, his legacy is already tarnished and winning a lawsuit won't really change it. What's his recourse if he loses this one, Supreme Court? I will say if he keeps pushing this back until he retires, then he drops it, wasting a lot of the taxpayers money, he should be liable for the hundreds of thousands of dollars this ends up costing the taxpayers.

 

[NorthDakota]

At this point I don't care. Let him play, his legacy is already tarnished and winning a lawsuit won't really change it. What's his recourse if he loses this one, Supreme Court? I will say if he keeps pushing this back until he retires, then he'd drop it, wasting a lot of the taxpayers money, he should be liable for the hundreds of thousands of dollars this ends up costing the taxpayers.

Yep. The Patriots Dynasty will always have the asterisk.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

FWIW

21 Scientists Say Tom Brady Is Right And The NFL Is Wrong

To further prove their point, the professors obtained field-temperature data for over 10,000 NFL games dating back to 1960, and found that about 61 percent of all games would’ve been played with under-inflated footballs. Accounting for the specific air pressure the Patriots’ footballs were initially set at, they found that 82 percent of the games would’ve had footballs considered under-inflated by NFL rules. As it turns out, the thing the NFL wants to suspend Brady over is an act of nature that happens all the time and nobody ever notices.

 

[gkIrish]

This whole thing makes my head hurt

 

[woolybug25]

I still say "who cares if Brady is right or wrong"? I feel that part of the argument is immaterial. The only thing that matters is if the NFL had the legal right to suspend him. I believe they did. As Brady was represented and agreed to the collective bargaining agreement. This is an employment issue, not an issue of whether some balls were deflated or not.

 

[wizards8507]

I still say "who cares if Brady is right or wrong"? I feel that part of the argument is immaterial. The only thing that matters is if the NFL had the legal right to suspend him. I believe they did. As Brady was represented and agreed to the collective bargaining agreement. This is an employment issue, not an issue of whether some balls were deflated or not.

That's absolutely false. The NFL certainly has the right to suspend Brady for cheating because that's what the CBA says, you're right on that. That doesn't mean that the NFL has the right to suspend Brady for cheating if Brady didn't cheat.

 

[woolybug25]

That's absolutely false. The NFL certainly has the right to suspend Brady for cheating because that's what the CBA says, you're right on that. That doesn't mean that the NFL has the right to suspend Brady for cheating if Brady didn't cheat.

Show me in the collective bargaining agreement where it says that you have to scientifically prove that the cheating occurred. Plus, wasn't the suspension more for his lack of cooperation than the balls themselves?

Again, they have an employment agreement that Brady signed. That is why regardless of how long Brady decides to appeal, he will eventually lose.

At this point. Just sit out the freaking games.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Show me in the collective bargaining agreement where it says that you have to scientifically prove that the cheating occurred. Plus, wasn't the suspension more for his lack of cooperation than the balls themselves?

Again, they have an employment agreement that Brady signed. That is why regardless of how long Brady decides to appeal, he will eventually lose.

At this point. Just sit out the freaking games.

That can't be right. If he can prove that he didn't cheat, there's no way the players association should be forced to accept a suspension. That has to violate the CBA. Right...?

 

[wizards8507]

Show me in the collective bargaining agreement where it says that you have to scientifically prove that the cheating occurred. Plus, wasn't the suspension more for his lack of cooperation than the balls themselves?

Again, they have an employment agreement that Brady signed. That is why regardless of how long Brady decides to appeal, he will eventually lose.

At this point. Just sit out the freaking games.

I'm not saying that the NFL has to scientifically prove that he cheated. However, if the Brady people can scientifically prove that he didn't cheat, it would support the argument that the Wells investigation was not conducted in good faith. The presence of the employment agreement doesn't mean the NFL is free to be arbitrary and capricious in its investigation and adjudication process.

Analogy: Your employer's IT department sees that your work computer was accessing pornography. On the surface, they obviously fire you for that. But if there's security camera footage that proves it was the night cleaning people getting on your machine, that changes things.

 

[yankeehater]

I was in Colorado over the weekend and of course everyone wanted to talk football. Most of the people believe Manning did take HGH, but they don't care because they have their Superbowl. In the same breath, they all knocked Brady for Deflategate. I guess it only matters if your team wins or counts if it is the others who are cheating.

 

[woolybug25]

That can't be right. If he can prove that he didn't cheat, there's no way the players association should be forced to accept a suspension. That has to violate the CBA. Right?

Again, the fact remains that at least in part, his suspension was for not cooperating with the investigation. Furthermore, several rules were broke. Deflated balls were used (regardless of intent) and the ball dude took them in an area he shouldn't. Then instead of just working with the NFL, Tommy Boy refuses to cooperate and destroys evidence.

The reality is that there is no way to conclusively know if he cheated or not, so it's the leagues legal right to make that determination. So they did so within their rights within the collective bargaining agreement. Again, this is an employment issue, not an issue about the balls.

What I do find amusing is that I know damn well that Wiz would be agreeing with me if this wasn't his man crush Brady. Haha

 

[NDdomer2]

I'm not saying that the NFL has to scientifically prove that he cheated. However, if the Brady people can scientifically prove that he didn't cheat, it would support the argument that the Wells investigation was not conducted in good faith. The presence of the employment agreement doesn't mean the NFL is free to be arbitrary and capricious in its investigation and adjudication process.

Analogy: Your employer's IT department sees that your work computer was accessing pornography. On the surface, they obviously fire you for that. But if there's security camera footage that proves it was the night cleaning people getting on your machine, that changes things.

but what if in between them firing him for his on the surface porn watching and the footage showing it was the cleaning people Wooly smashed his laptop and burned the servers in hopes of keeping the IT dept from doing further research? you forgot that part of the scenario.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Again, the fact remains that at least in part, his suspension was for not cooperating with the investigation. Furthermore, several rules were broke. Deflated balls were used (regardless of intent) and the ball dude took them in an area he shouldn't. Then instead of just working with the NFL, Tommy Boy refuses to cooperate and destroys evidence.

The reality is that there is no way to conclusively know if he cheated or not, so it's the leagues legal right to make that determination. So they did so within their rights within the collective bargaining agreement. Again, this is an employment issue, not an issue about the balls.

What I do find amusing is that I know damn well that Wiz would be agreeing with me if this wasn't his man crush Brady. Haha

If they did cheat, they were bad at it, given that the Colts balls were also deflated.

 

[woolybug25]

I'm not saying that the NFL has to scientifically prove that he cheated. However, if the Brady people can scientifically prove that he didn't cheat, it would support the argument that the Wells investigation was not conducted in good faith. The presence of the employment agreement doesn't mean the NFL is free to be arbitrary and capricious in its investigation and adjudication process.

Analogy: Your employer's IT department sees that your work computer was accessing pornography. On the surface, they obviously fire you for that. But if there's security camera footage that proves it was the night cleaning people getting on your machine, that changes things.

First of all, it can't be scientifically proven with 100% accuracy that Tom didn't order the balls to be deflated. It can only show that it can happen. The balls were still improperly handled, he still didn't cooperate and he still destroyed evidence.

So using your analogy, we would need to tweet that argument that when the employee is accused of said porn transgressions, he takes his cpu home, removes the hard drive and destroys it.

 

[woolybug25]

If they did cheat, they were bad at it, given that the Colts balls were also deflated.

It's immaterial.

 

[wizards8507]

What I do find amusing is that I know damn well that Wiz would be agreeing with me if this wasn't his man crush Brady. Haha

Absolutely false. Besides, if I agreed with this nonsense, people would be attacking me from the other side saying I'm only supporting #Deflategate because of ESPN.

but what if in between them firing him for his on the surface porn watching and the footage showing it was the cleaning people Wooly smashed his laptop and burned the servers in hopes of keeping the IT dept from doing further research? you forgot that part of the scenario.

Okay, I never said it was a flawless analogy. But a better example would be Wooly smashing his own phone. There's nothing in the CBA that says players can't destroy their personal electronic devices. That's completely outside the scope of the agreement.

 

[irishfan]

Show me in the collective bargaining agreement where it says that you have to scientifically prove that the cheating occurred. Plus, wasn't the suspension more for his lack of cooperation than the balls themselves?

Again, they have an employment agreement that Brady signed. That is why regardless of how long Brady decides to appeal, he will eventually lose.

At this point. Just sit out the freaking games.

It's also in the employment agreement that equipment violations only get a fine.

The main issue here is that he didn't get his "fair process." The independent investigation was not independent at all. The NFLPA couldn't question key members of that investigation during the appeal. After the original appeal, Goodell changed the terms of Brady's suspension. There were a lot of sketchy things that the NFL did.

I'm not really sure why anyone thinks this is an open and shut case. 4 judges have ruled on it. 2 sided with Brady/NFLPA and 2 sided with the NFL. Makes no sense to just "sit out the freaking games."

 

[IrishJayhawk]

It's immaterial.

Perhaps. But if this was about the Bears, I'd be completely infuriated. Wouldn't you?

 

[ACamp1900]

He cheated. Everyone not eating their Gerber with a Patriots bib came to accept that long ago...

 

[gkIrish]

I may be misremembering facts, but if all the following are true, the NFL could suspend him:

1) Equipment guy takes the balls into the bathroom, which violates NFL rules.
2) Said equipment guy calls Brady "the Deflator" in text messages
3) Brady refused to cooperate by not providing his phone

Really only #3 needs to be true to permit the suspension. Whether the balls were deflated or not is immaterial. Whether there was any evidence on his phone is immaterial. It's just the fact that he didn't cooperate.

In other words, if the NFL had any rational basis at all for wanting to see Brady's phone, he is screwed.

 

[NorthDakota]

It's also in the employment agreement that equipment violations only get a fine.

The main issue here is that he didn't get his "fair process." The independent investigation was not independent at all. The NFLPA couldn't question key members of that investigation during the appeal. After the original appeal, Goodell changed the terms of Brady's suspension. There were a lot of sketchy things that the NFL did.

I'm not really sure why anyone thinks this is an open and shut case. 4 judges have ruled on it. 2 sided with Brady/NFLPA and 2 sided with the NFL. Makes no sense to just "sit out the freaking games."

Tampering with a football is hardly an equipment violation. Not wearing the proper socks or crap like that would seem to be an equipment violation.