ESPN sues Notre Dame over police records

[gkIrish]

Was Massy involved in this? I didn't think he had it in him.

Happy Birthday Koon

 

[koonja]

Happy Birthday Koon

Thanks brotha.

 

[condoms SUCk]

Was Massy involved in this? I didn't think he had it in him.

No, he's been too busy getting his rocks off to Harbaugh.

 

[dad4aa]

I am missing something here. I have had a few friends over the years get arrested at Notre Dame games. Not once, was one of them handcuffed and taken away by NDPD. NDPD would detain them but the SBPD were the ones who handcuffed them, read them their rights and hauled them away.

In a similar manner, I was at a traffic accident where a drunk driver ran a light and caused an accident. Another driver and myself took his keys away and "detained" him in his car until the police arrived.

In both instances, someone other than the SBPD detained the suspects but did not arrest anyone. While the NDPD may be sworn by the state and I am not, they don't seem to act in the same manner as the SBPD in my opinion. There is no jail on campus where they lock criminals up. A security guard at the mall will detain someone caught stealing until the SBPD shows up to take them away as well. IS the security guard an agent of the state or a private security under other guidelines and rules? How does this differ from NDPD other than NDPD covers an entire campus?

 

[Legacy]

Here's the Indiana AGs amicus brief:

BRIEF OF THE STATE OF INDIANA AS AMICUS CURIAE
IN SUPPORT OF APPELLANTS (ESPN)

In summarizing the trial court's decision:

As an initial matter, the trial court held that “Notre Dame’s campus police
officers do not constitute a separate legal entity . . . [as t]he enabling statute that authorizes Indiana’s private colleges and universities to appoint campus police officers, only allows the colleges and universities themselves to do so.” App. 8
(citing Ind. Code § 21-17-5-1 et seq.). Thus, the court viewed the question raised by ESPN’s complaint as whether “the entire University of Notre Dame[] is now required to produce all of its records (such as academic, business and financial records) simply because it appoints campus police officers.” Id.

The answer to that question, said the court, is no. The Act applies only to records of a “public agency,” which the University of Notre Dame, a private institution, is not. App. 9–10. The court acknowledged that Notre Dame police officers “have the authority to exercise the most critical police functions . . . including the authority to investigate criminal activity and make arrests.” App. 10. The court also recognized that the Indiana Supreme Court has held that private campus police departments are “state actors” for purposes of determining the constitutional limits on their police powers. Id.

However, said the court, it does not follow that an entity is a public agency for purposes of the Act merely because it is a state actor for constitutional law purposes. App. 11. The court explained that the powers exercised by Notre Dame police officers “are not part of the executive, administrative, judicial or legislative power of the state. Rather, because the Legislature has granted those powers to private third parties, namely the ‘governing board’ of . . . the universities, they are powers granted by the state.” Id.

 

[IrishLax]

Bill to make some campus police records public advances - South Bend Tribune: Politics

So in short, what most people having been saying here is correct. Notre Dame's opposition to ESPN is not about "doing the right thing"... it's about the underlying tenets of what makes a private university private and ESPN attempting to violate and redefine that in the face of decades of precedent.

The public access laws in Indiana were never meant to apply to private institutions; however, they also weren't intended to shield criminal information. So Indiana lawmakers are passing a new bill to specifically govern release of police information to the public from private universities while reaffirming that the public access laws do not in any way apply to Notre Dame, Valpraiso, etc. as "state agencies." This new law to provide access to police records was authored in part by the private colleges in Indiana (including Notre Dame) to provide transparency but with clear boundaries and stipulations.

 

[Legacy]

Sounds like this bill will respect the rights of all parties, draw clearer distinctions and give legislative guidance to the courts and the Public Records Counselors going forward. When it passes, let's hope for balance in sports reporting its passage.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: ESPN wins appeal over Notre Dame police department – arrest records may be released. Watch <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WSBT22?src=hash">#WSBT22</a> at noon <a href="https://t.co/uPXtvtsLo7">https://t.co/uPXtvtsLo7</a></p>— WSBT (@WSBT) <a href="https://twitter.com/WSBT/status/709769667196424192">March 15, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[IrishLax]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: ESPN wins appeal over Notre Dame police department – arrest records may be released. Watch <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/WSBT22?src=hash">#WSBT22</a> at noon <a href="https://t.co/uPXtvtsLo7">https://t.co/uPXtvtsLo7</a></p>— WSBT (@WSBT) <a href="https://twitter.com/WSBT/status/709769667196424192">March 15, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You have got to be kidding me. Overturning decades of precedent and a lower court decision.

 

[wizards8507]

You have got to be kidding me. Overturning decades of precedent and a lower court decision.

The precedent and lower courts were wrong.

Notre Dame has two choices. Disband NDSP and turn campus security over to South Bend, or fork over their charter from the state and run NDSP as an unarmed security force without arrest powers.

*I'm not taking a pro-ESPN position, I'm taking an anti-police position. So anyone who wants to flame me below, please do so accordingly.

 

[IrishLion]

*I'm not taking a pro-ESPN position, I'm taking an anti-police position. So anyone who wants to flame me below, please do so accordingly.

You're just a company man, looking out for The Man. You don't even care about ND. You suck. You love Donald Trump and think he's a gentleman of upstanding morals. You love surveillance at all times. You hate privacy. You're gonna vote for Hillary even though you love Trump. You root for Michigan when ND is on bye.

 

[IrishLax]

The precedent and lower courts were wrong.

Notre Dame has two choices. Disband NDSP and turn campus security over to South Bend, or fork over their charter from the state and run NDSP as an unarmed security force without arrest powers.

*I'm not taking a pro-ESPN position, I'm taking an anti-police position. So anyone who wants to flame me below, please do so accordingly.

No, they weren't. Here's your "flaming"...

1. You cannot tell someone that they're allowed to operate a certain way, then uphold that determination multiple times, and then pull the rug out from under them and say JUST KIDDING! when the law hasn't changed at all. This nothing but judiciary overreach by this appeals court, because many states have similar laws that have been upheld multiple times. Others have been overturned, but usually their language is more broad. So you can't say "everyone else was wrong, but this appeals court got it right." When an entity is fully funded and beholden to a private institution you can't call them a "state agency" without extreme mental gymnastics.

2. Further proving that the Indiana public access laws were never meant to apply to private schools with private security police, Indiana lawmakers recently passed a law clarifying the existing laws and explaining which police records should be public from these schools. Why would this new law be necessary if the current public access laws were meant to apply to NDSP?

 

[wizards8507]

No, they weren't. Here's your "flaming"...

1. You cannot tell someone that they're allowed to operate a certain way, then uphold that determination multiple times, and then pull the rug out from under them and say JUST KIDDING! when the law hasn't changed at all. This nothing but judiciary overreach by this appeals court, because many states have similar laws that have been upheld multiple times. Others have been overturned, but usually their language is more broad. So you can't say "everyone else was wrong, but this appeals court got it right." When an entity is fully funded and beholden to a private institution you can't call them a "state agency" without extreme mental gymnastics.

2. Further proving that the Indiana public access laws were never meant to apply to private schools with private security police, Indiana lawmakers recently passed a law clarifying the existing laws and explaining which police records should be public from these schools. Why would this new law be necessary if the current public access laws were meant to apply to NDSP?

The bolded is the issue. NDSP is not a private police force of the private University of Notre Dame. NDSP is a public police force of the State of Indiana.

 

[IrishLax]

The bolded is the issue. NDSP is not a private police force of the private University of Notre Dame. NDSP is a public police force of the State of Indiana.

Then why are no public funds of any kind used to pay for them? And why do they answer to no tax payers or elected officials?

 

[Irish#1]

The precedent and lower courts were wrong.

Notre Dame has two choices. Disband NDSP and turn campus security over to South Bend, or fork over their charter from the state and run NDSP as an unarmed security force without arrest powers.

*I'm not taking a pro-ESPN position, I'm taking an anti-police position. So anyone who wants to flame me below, please do so accordingly.

ND has three choices. The third is appeal which will happen.

 

[kmoose]

The bolded is the issue. NDSP is not a private police force of the private University of Notre Dame. NDSP is a public police force of the State of Indiana.

No it's not. Just because it has a State Certification does not make it a State entity. It's not funded by the State. When I worked in the Fire and Security business in North Carolina, I had a North Carolina Alarm Installer's certification. The State certified that I was competent to install and service alarm systems. I did not do that work on behalf of the State, I did it on behalf of my employer, Simplex. The State certifies that NDSP is competent to perform law enforcement functions. NDSP performs those functions on behalf of the University of Notre Dame; not the State of Indiana, the County of St. Joesph, nor the City of South Bend.

 

[wizards8507]

Then why are no public funds of any kind used to pay for them? And why do they answer to no tax payers or elected officials?

They can arrest people! That's the most public power there is. The idea of a privately-controlled entity with arrest powers is terrifying and absolutely not what this country should stand for.

No it's not. Just because it has a State Certification does not make it a State entity. It's not funded by the State. When I worked in the Fire and Security business in North Carolina, I had a North Carolina Alarm Installer's certification. The State certified that I was competent to install and service alarm systems. I did not do that work on behalf of the State, I did it on behalf of my employer, Simplex. The State certifies that NDSP is competent to perform law enforcement functions. NDSP performs those functions on behalf of the University of Notre Dame; not the State of Indiana, the County of St. Joesph, nor the City of South Bend.

That's appalling. If Donald Trump had a "private police force" that could ARREST PEOPLE AND HOLD THEM IN JAIL, there would be riots in the streets.

 

[ulukinatme]

They can arrest people! That's the most public power there is. The idea of a privately-controlled entity with arrest powers is terrifying and absolutely not what this country should stand for.

Oh, stop being overly dramatic. It's not like ND police are snatching people up in the night, arresting people at their whimsy.

 

[kmoose]

That's appalling. If Donald Trump had a "private police force" that could ARREST PEOPLE AND HOLD THEM IN JAIL, there would be riots in the streets.

Personally, your emotions on the subject mean absolutely nothing to me. The logic remains; "certification by the State" DOES NOT = "entity of the State"

 

[IrishLax]

They can arrest people! That's the most public power there is. The idea of a privately-controlled entity with arrest powers is terrifying and absolutely not what this country should stand for.

LOL you do know that in many places general citizens can arrest people as well, right? You do know that, correct? Just trying to understand the depth of your ignorance here.

There is nothing particularly sacred about the "power" to arrest. And should NDSP arrest someone and want to press charges, the records go to the local DA and become public record sooooo................... your entire point is self-defeating.

 

[IrishLax]

ND has three choices. The third is appeal which will happen.

Can you appeal higher in Indiana? Would the Indiana supreme court take on such a case?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

They can arrest people! That's the most public power there is. The idea of a privately-controlled entity with arrest powers is terrifying and absolutely not what this country should stand for.

(1) The only people they have authority to arrest are those who voluntarily enter onto the University's private property; and (2) as Lax points out above, if UND wants to press charges, the records are then turned over to the St. Joseph's County Prosecutor's Office, because ND doesn't have the ability to try people.

 

[wizards8507]

LOL you do know that in many places general citizens can arrest people as well, right? You do know that, correct? Just trying to understand the depth of your ignorance here.

General citizens aren't chartered by the State of Indiana.

There is nothing particularly sacred about the "power" to arrest. And should NDSP arrest someone and want to press charges, the records go to the local DA and become public record sooooo................... your entire point is self-defeating.

Do you even Fifth Amendment bro?

(1) The only people they have authority to arrest are those who voluntarily enter onto the University's private property; and (2) as Lax points out above, if UND wants to press charges, the records are then turned over to the St. Joseph's County Prosecutor's Office, because ND doesn't have the ability to try people.

Then why do they need the state charter? If I try to rob a Macy's, the mall cop can detain me and "turn the case over toe the local PD" too. The mall cops aren't chartered by the state.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Then why do they need the state charter? If I try to rob a Macy's, the mall cop can detain me and "turn the case over toe the local PD" too. The mall cops aren't chartered by the state.

Ask the State of Indiana. States require licenses, charters and certifications for all sorts of activities. Doesn't mean those people are state agents.

 

[greyhammer90]

Do you even Fifth Amendment bro?.

 

[wizards8507]

Ask the State of Indiana. States require licenses, charters and certifications for all sorts of activities. Doesn't mean those people are state agents.

You're telling me there's no difference between what NDSP does as a police force in Indiana and what I do as a Certified Public Accountant in New York or Connecticut? There's no way you believe that.

 

[IrishLax]

General citizens aren't chartered by the State of Indiana.

Do you even Fifth Amendment bro?

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? I mean seriously, your posting here is completely devoid of any logic. It's pathetic, because you're obviously not even trying to be rational. Because I know you obviously have the mental faculties to process this information correctly... so you have to be intentionally choosing to be ridiculous here.

1. Being certified/empowered by the state does not in and of itself make you a public agency of the state. A public agency would be something like the Indiana Department of Transportation. A non-public agency certified/empowered/whatever would be like a food truck that is licensed to operate in the state. There are literally hundreds or thousands of examples of entities that are empower/licensed/whatever to operate with certain rights/powers by the state of Indiana that are considered private entities. Given that inarguable fact:
1A. NDSP takes $0 of public money of any kind.
1B. NDSP is entirely beholden to a 100% private entity.

So NDSP is clearly not a public agency by letter of the rule. So the argument has to be "but they act like a public agency even if not classified as one"... which is what ESPN successfully argued. To that point, and your laughable idea that running "NDSP as an unarmed security force without arrest powers" makes any sense:

2A. Many general citizens across this country have the same power to arrest if they witness a crime, so there is no argument that the "power to arrest" makes them a public agency.

2B. Many general citizens across this country have the right to be armed, so there is no argument that them being an "armed" police force makes them a public agency.

So then what about the "public good" of police transparency? Well:

3. New laws are being passed to clarify that the public access laws as written do not apply to NDSP but instead NDSP should have to follow specific, enumerated disclosure laws.

In short, your argument sucks for the reasons stated above. Do better or don't sully the board with your terribad pro-Disney BS.

 

[IrishLax]

You're telling me there's no difference between what NDSP does as a police force in Indiana and what I do as a Certified Public Accountant in New York or Connecticut? There's no way you believe that.

What if I told you the CPA in Connecticut* has the same "power" to be armed and make arrests? Would that just blow your mind?

*I'm actually not sure what kind of gun laws and citizen's arrest laws Connecticut has.

 

[wizards8507]

What in the actual fuck are you talking about? I mean seriously, your posting here is completely devoid of any logic. It's pathetic, because you're obviously not even trying to be rational. Because I know you obviously have the mental faculties to process this information correctly... so you have to be intentionally choosing to be ridiculous here.

1. Being certified/empowered by the state does not in and of itself make you a public agency of the state. A public agency would be something like the Indiana Department of Transportation. A non-public agency certified/empowered/whatever would be like a food truck that is licensed to operate in the state. There are literally hundreds or thousands of examples of entities that are empower/licensed/whatever to operate with certain rights/powers by the state of Indiana that are considered private entities. Given that inarguable fact:
1A. NDSP takes $0 of public money of any kind.
1B. NDSP is entirely beholden to a 100% private entity.

So NDSP is clearly not a public agency by letter of the rule. So the argument has to be "but they act like a public agency even if not classified as one"... which is what ESPN successfully argued. To that point, and your laughable idea that running "NDSP as an unarmed security force without arrest powers" makes any sense:

2A. Many general citizens across this country have the same power to arrest if they witness a crime, so there is no argument that the "power to arrest" makes them a public agency.

2B. Many general citizens across this country have the right to be armed, so there is no argument that them being an "armed" police force makes them a public agency.

So then what about the "public good" of police transparency? Well:

3. New laws are being passed to clarify that the public access laws as written do not apply to NDSP but instead NDSP should have to follow specific, enumerated disclosure laws.

What if I told you the CPA in Connecticut* has the same "power" to be armed and make arrests? Would that just blow your mind?

*I'm actually not sure what kind of gun laws and citizen's arrest laws Connecticut has.

This is why people hate lawyers. A police force is not the same thing as a food truck no matter how pedantic you want to be. A man with a uniform, a badge, and a firearm on his hip carries certain powers and responsibilities, as does his employer.

In short, your argument sucks for the reasons stated above. Do better or don't sully the board with your terribad pro-Disney BS.

I criticize Disney all the time on here. See my comments on Caitlyn Jenner, Deflategate, Cam Newton, Peyton Manning, Curt Schilling, H1B visas, etc.

 

[kmoose]

You're telling me there's no difference between what NDSP does as a police force in Indiana and what I do as a Certified Public Accountant in New York or Connecticut? There's no way you believe that.

It has nothing to do with what you do. It has to do with whether or not you are an agent of the government. There is no difference between you and an NDSP officer, in regards to your status as an agent of the State.