2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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B

Buster Bluth

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The bolded is logically contradictory.

You say regulation isn't the problem, yet my example shows regulation causing more pollution by causing the business to uproot and move to Mexico where they don't have the same regulations.

You're a civil engineer, so you took some enviro classes in college. Accordingly, you know that there are an abundance of chemical manufacturing plants in Mexico because they have lesser regulations and can pollute more while paying less.

So, in essence, if we consider the world as a single entity, enacting really tough regulations in the United States => businesses move to places where they don't have the regulation => they pollute more there than they did before in the United States. So in the end, the net result in global pollution is actually worse by enacting stronger regulation in the United States. And that's not even considering the carbon footprint associated with transportation of those goods.

When Rubio says "America is a country, not a planet" he's 100% right... the only way something effective gets done on climate change is if a coalition of the "consumers" puts says they aren't playing ball anymore with global polluters.

I think this may interest you and all of the posters commenting on the energy outlook for the next 20+ years. I thought it was tremendously insightful.

Basically, everyone, even China, is moving to get away from coal and that is the huge factor for global warming. Coal and oil are losing their share of energy sources and renewables and gas are gaining steam, with nuclear being even.

The "we shouldn't do anything if China doesn't" line is valid but sorta untrue. China is experiencing incredible domestic pressure to clean up their environment. They want an urbanized middle class and that middle class simply will not put up with the current levels of pollution, so they will be moving towards gas like the rest of the world. Coal as a percentage of energy will fall from ~80% in 1985 to ~50% in 2035, while their economy is larger and one can assume their CO2 output is, that's still pretty insane progress.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nnAKOAp-etM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Ndaccountant

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I think this may interest you and all of the posters commenting on the energy outlook for the next 20+ years. I thought it was tremendously insightful.

Basically, everyone, even China, is moving to get away from coal and that is the huge factor for global warming. Coal and oil are losing their share of energy sources and renewables and gas are gaining steam, with nuclear being even.

The "we shouldn't do anything if China doesn't" line is valid but sorta untrue. China is experiencing incredible domestic pressure to clean up their environment. They want an urbanized middle class and that middle class simply will not put up with the current levels of pollution, so they will be moving towards gas like the rest of the world. Coal as a percentage of energy will fall from ~80% in 1985 to ~50% in 2035, while their economy is larger and one can assume their CO2 output is, that's still pretty insane progress.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nnAKOAp-etM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

They are, but they are being aided by Russia being desperate. Remember, China was more than willing to step up their energy purchases from Russia when the West threw down sanctions. It would be interesting to see how fast that transition would have occurred without Russia latching on the the China breast.

China, Russia Try to Brave Economic Headwinds | The Diplomat
 
B

Buster Bluth

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So what exactly is the result of "do nothing" in regards to the actual problem of climate change?

Because last I checked, I cannot remember the last serious Republican candidate that had any other environmental stance.

Teddy Roosevelt, I suppose.

Nixon. If that guy weren't such a shithead he'd have gone down in the books as a damn fine President.

National Environmental Policy Act of 1969
Environmental Protection Agency was formed in December 1970
Clean Air Act Extension of 1970
Marine Mammal Protection Act of 1972
Endangered Species Act of 1973
Safe Drinking Water Act of 1974

Richard Nixon on Environment
 
C

Cackalacky

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Maybe energy will be be the global "Cold War" that hastened america to the moon?
 
B

Buster Bluth

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They are, but they are being aided by Russia being desperate. Remember, China was more than willing to step up their energy purchases from Russia when the West threw down sanctions. It would be interesting to see how fast that transition would have occurred without Russia latching on the the China breast.

China, Russia Try to Brave Economic Headwinds | The Diplomat

I'm not sure what that has to do with it other than where they are sourcing their energy.
 

woolybug25

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Do nothing: No improvement unless China and India change

Penalize and regulate: No improvement unless China and India change, waste loads of money, destroy economy

One of those seems worse than the other.

That's whats wrong with this mindset. That there is no grey area or other options.

That's not what leaders do. Just forget about problems and march on doing the same stuff. They find solutions, they partner they innovate.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Except that the mission in this case isn't "America to the moon." We'd also need to get China and India to the moon.

So you're saying it would be wise to continue putting money into green energy so the research and incentives facilitate improvements in the technology that will allow China and India (and really, the whole developing world) to use said technology in the coming decades instead of opting for coal?

The developing world has a great argument when they say "you guys used cheap fossil fuels to develop your economies, why can't we? It's hypocritical of you to criticize or punish us on this matter," and that's another reason why government money and regulation to promote green energy here is so important.

I don't want to wake up in 2040 with India, China, and the whole of Africa needing energy and having no where else to turn but fossil fuels. In addition to the vaccines and numerous medical advancements, the West's support for nurturing green energy will be one of our greatest achievements.
 

Ndaccountant

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I'm not sure what that has to do with it other than where they are sourcing their energy.

It has a big role. When China promised to lower emissions, they did so because they were able to secure huge 30 year contracts from West Siberian gas fields.

The major obstacle that Russia and China encountered on past attempts to make it to the altar was price. Russia did not want to sell gas to China at a price lower than it commanded in Europe, its largest customer. Meanwhile, China did not want to buy gas at a higher price than it paid Turkmenistan, its largest supplier of natural gas.

Although the Russians and the Chinese have come to a meeting of the minds on price, they are treating it as a commercial secret. Consequently, there has been much speculation by outside analysts about the price implied by the $400 billion contract and what it says about which country got the better deal. A back-of-the-envelope calculation yields an implied price of $350 per thousand cubic meters, which is close to what the Chinese are understood to have paid for gas from Turkmenistan last year. This estimate fits with the consensus among many outside observers in the lead up to the summit that Chinese had the upper hand due to Russia’s strained relations with the U.S. and Europe and the number of natural gas producers eager to supply the Chinese market.

That said, we do not know the pricing formula, the base number to be plugged into that formula or how a variety of other issues on the negotiating table – such as the apparent lack of upstream access in Russia for the Chinese, a rumored prepayment from the Chinese to the Russians, a Russian proposal to exempt gas sent to China from a mineral extraction tax, a Chinese proposal to exempt Russian supplies from an LNG import tax, and expectations about the pace of natural gas price reform in China – influenced both countries decisions about price.

It is also important to note that this is not a marriage among equals. The natural gas supply agreement is the third time in the past decade that the Russians have brokered a multi-billion dollar energy deal with the Chinese in a time of need. In 2005, the China Development Bank and the Export-Import Bank of China were lenders of last resort to Rosneft, providing the Russian national oil company with a $6 billion oil-backed loan to help fund the purchase of the main production asset of a private Russian oil company, Yukos.

Four years later, the China Development Bank extended oil-backed loans worth $25 billion to Rosneft and Transneft, the state-owned pipeline operator, when oil prices collapsed and credit crunch during the global financial crisis left both Russian companies in a world of hurt. These deals have not only deepened bilateral energy relations, but also underscored a shift in power in the relationship away from Russia and toward China.

So, previous attempts failed, because Russia wouldn't budge on price. Suddenly, Russia loses ability to send gas into Europe and needs money.....and fast. There is China ready to welcome them.....for a price of course.

Fact is China has promised countless reforms in the past and have moved at a glacial pace, if they moved at all. If not for the Russia Sanctions, there is no guarantee China would be pressing ahead.

In China-Russia gas deal, why China wins a little more - Fortune
 

IrishLax

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I think this may interest you and all of the posters commenting on the energy outlook for the next 20+ years. I thought it was tremendously insightful.

Basically, everyone, even China, is moving to get away from coal and that is the huge factor for global warming. Coal and oil are losing their share of energy sources and renewables and gas are gaining steam, with nuclear being even.

The "we shouldn't do anything if China doesn't" line is valid but sorta untrue. China is experiencing incredible domestic pressure to clean up their environment. They want an urbanized middle class and that middle class simply will not put up with the current levels of pollution, so they will be moving towards gas like the rest of the world. Coal as a percentage of energy will fall from ~80% in 1985 to ~50% in 2035, while their economy is larger and one can assume their CO2 output is, that's still pretty insane progress.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/nnAKOAp-etM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Yeah, I alluded to this in a previous post about the global efforts that are under way. This certainly is a good and informative post, though I'd add a couple cautionary points:
1. The African continent is already beginning to emerge as the next China in terms of manufacturing without serious restriction. So let's say China/India completely clean up their act... well, it still doesn't fix the problem. This is what I was talking about in my earlier post about the problem with the policy position towards "emerging" economies.
2. While CO2 emissions were globally down last year, there's no telling whether or not this is a trend, and how China/India/etc. will behave if "going green" isn't in their best economic interests.

I didn't watch the video, and maybe that already talks about these points.

With 1 and 2 taken together, I'd like to see global standards instituted (with enforceable penalties) to a degree we have right now before this country enacts any unilateral domestic policy towards limiting emissions.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Yeah, I alluded to this in a previous post about the global efforts that are under way. This certainly is a good and informative post, though I'd add a couple cautionary points:
1. The African continent is already beginning to emerge as the next China in terms of manufacturing without serious restriction. So let's say China/India completely clean up their act... well, it still doesn't fix the problem. This is what I was talking about in my earlier post about the problem with the policy position towards "emerging" economies.
2. While CO2 emissions were globally down last year, there's no telling whether or not this is a trend, and how China/India/etc. will behave if "going green" isn't in their best economic interests.

I didn't watch the video, and maybe that already talks about these points.

With 1 and 2 taken together, I'd like to see global standards instituted (with enforceable penalties) to a degree we have right now before this country enacts any unilateral domestic policy towards limiting emissions.

I'm with all of that 100%. That's why it's crucial that green energy (and energy efficiency) research progresses fast enough to be competitive, so when Africa joins the world economy (plus BRIC's enormous growth) we have technology to offer that prevents widespread coal usage.
 

wizards8507

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1. The African continent is already beginning to emerge as the next China in terms of manufacturing without serious restriction. So let's say China/India completely clean up their act... well, it still doesn't fix the problem. This is what I was talking about in my earlier post about the problem with the policy position towards "emerging" economies.
On this point, any effort to regulate the environment that prevents economic development in Africa would be far more immoral than allowing climate change to persist.
 

wizards8507

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/XJGLR2prMAM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

"Moving away from a model of humanitarian assistance towards a model of self-reliance can provide the best possible outcome for the refugee community."

Take this video and apply it to:
  • Refugee camps
  • Urban poverty
  • Rural poverty
  • Developing countries
  • War-torn regions
 

Whiskeyjack

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TAC's Jack Ross just published an article titled "Can Sanders Remake the Democratic Party?"

The Democratic Party fight between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders—one likely to extend through the very last primaries if not all the way to the convention—might be compared to the contest between Ronald Reagan and Gerald Ford in 1976. A beloved movement figure is taking on an exhausted yet entrenched establishment, running much better than anyone expected. But like Reagan, even in defeat, Sanders clearly represents the future of the party.

The same anti-establishment story might have once been told about Barack Obama. Yet with the obvious exception of African-American support for the first black president, the belief in Obama as a “transformational” figure turned out to be an elite phenomenon, extending from the political class to the academic left. While then millennial voters did go along with Obama, a far larger, more economically hard-pressed bloc of young voters now seems overwhelmingly with Sanders—a politician who speaks directly to their struggles, giving him an advantage with the working-class Democrats who most resisted Obama in 2008. As that coalition matures in the years ahead, it could easily drift far away from the liberal pieties that have typified the Obama coalition.

There have been missteps, notably Sanders relying on activists of the so-called “Black Lives Matter” movement to represent him with black voters. Still, despite these blunders, Sanders still stands out as a throwback to former brands of socialist idealism. This, indeed, remains the key to understanding Bernie Sanders.

After growing up in Brooklyn, the cradle of so many activists of his time, Sanders arrived in Vermont in 1964. He had gone north just a short time after graduating from the University of Chicago, where he led a civil rights group. In the wilds of Vermont, he preserved a more radical strain of the original idealism of the civil rights movement—one untainted by black power and the Vietcong, and the subsequent rise of identity politics in mainstream liberalism.

Sanders’s historic socialist identity is seen as anomalous and exotic by the media and worn as a badge of radical daring by supporters. But does his implicit critique of contemporary liberalism qualify as “socialist”? It seems the term has become as useless an ideological descriptor as “liberal” or “conservative.”

Yet one can say that Sanders’s critique fits in squarely with the older liberalism typified by the heyday of Americans for Democratic Action, a group that owed much to the historic American Socialist tradition and represented the best civil libertarian qualities of the Cold War era. Sanders is also squarely in the tradition of the Socialist Party politicians elected in the first half of the 20th century in places as far flung as Milwaukee, Schenectady, Butte, Minneapolis, Reading, and Bridgeport: these places saw candidates who succeeded through delivering on core constituency services and clean government. Like them, Sanders’s first election as mayor of Burlington in 1981 was due to a property tax revolt (and the opportunistic support of the police union). What later earned him up to 70 percent of the statewide vote in Vermont were historically favorable ratings from the NRA and zeal in securing veterans benefits.

Thus it would be a mistake to see Sanders as a mere throwback to the domestic agenda of FDR and Truman. In his unbowed emphasis on blasting away at the plutocratic class, Bernie has been much more like Louisiana populist Huey Long than socialists and progressives such as Norman Thomas or Henry Wallace. And it is equally mistaken to suppose that he would be in the mainstream center-left in Europe—his rise has clearly occurred in parallel with Jeremy Corbyn in Britain’s Labour Party and various anti-EU leftist parties on the continent.

This reproach from the distant past confronts an American liberalism in which Hillary Clinton represents the once settled principles of the post-Cold War era: deference to the financial elite, an activist foreign policy, a progressive culture war offensive. The Clintonian approach, which largely writes off the white working class, is essentially the platform first forged by the centrist Democratic Leadership Council in the 1980s. But a funny thing happened on Hillary’s way to the White House: suddenly, her party and the country are more concerned with economic inequality, criminal justice reform, climate change, and avoiding new wars in the Middle East.

It was not necessarily Sanders’s intention to provoke a debate about the future of liberalism, and he has not aggressively pursued it. Critics frequently call out his reliance on vague talk of popular mobilization (“a political revolution”) when asked how he would pass his agenda against Republican opposition. Left unacknowledged is how much the politics of a Democratic primary constrain him from making a clearer argument, a forceful critique of the party’s establishment and its priorities.

Yet despite the challenges Sanders faces, it’s hard to see how the anti-establishment Left could have found a better candidate. In retrospect, the once sought after progressive Elizabeth Warren would have fared poorly as Clinton’s challenger. Not only is Sanders’s record on foreign policy and civil liberties far superior, but Warren is far more inclined to indulge in fighting the culture war from the Left. On at least two issues Sanders has taken the bolder economic populist position opposed by Warren: for shutting down the Export-Import Bank and for Rand Paul’s Audit the Fed bill. By the same token, Sanders has been better able to make this critique in a Democratic primary than the once-promising Jim Webb ever could have. In short, no other candidate could have made such strides in restoring the party’s working class appeal while maintaining credibility with the Democratic base.

Alas, it may not be enough this year, if only because of the limitations that would have confronted any challenge to the current Democratic coalition, a situation now exacerbated by white working class defections to Donald Trump. A Clinton-Trump race, and a Trump victory, would only extend the volatility of the American electorate that has defined the past decade. Still, it would probably take far less pressure than a Trump presidency to completely upend the Democratic establishment, creating a new coalition as inconceivable and offensive to the party of Obama as Trump is to the party of Bush. Indeed, Sanders has gone farther in his Democratic insurgency than Ron Paul was able to in the GOP. Nor can a Sanders victory yet be ruled out—momentum may quickly shift against Clinton as the reality sinks in of what a Clinton-Trump race would mean.

Either way, stranger things have happened, not least in this election, than a white-haired secular Jew with a thick Brooklyn accent becoming the voice of the silent majority. Nearly as strange as what almost happened in 1976 before coming to fruition in 1980—a B-list Hollywood actor upending what was once left of the centrist, Rockefeller Republican coalition. A Democratic establishment that underestimates Sanders forgets that powerful movements are often headed by the most unexpected of leaders.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The Week's James Poulous wrote an article titled "Can the big political parties harness the energy of their populist insurgencies?"

Ted Cruz lost in Mississippi. John Kasich fanned in Michigan. Marco Rubio all but collapsed, not even close in Idaho, where some hoped he might make a mark.

And then there was Bernie. In a shocker that broke the spirit of pollsters everywhere, Sanders overcame a wide double-digit deficit to squeak out a stunning win over Hillary Clinton in Michigan.

Tuesday night's primaries and caucuses carried a clear lesson: Voters are unhappy. They who have felt so punished are now proceeding to punish.

So the big question shaping up for party elites on both sides is the same: What will it take to overcome these populist insurgencies? What will placate the insurgents, or negotiate a workable peace, and bring them back — energy intact — into the campaign fold? If the established parties can figure this out, the dividends could make the difference between success and failure in the general election. Democrats' turnout has crashed this year relative to last cycle; they need voters to feel as much of a burn (or Bern) as possible. And though Republicans have enjoyed blockbuster turnout, if they manage to deny Donald Trump the nomination, they could face enough of a rebellion to vault Clinton comfortably into the White House.

Sometimes instant conventional wisdom turns out to be correct, and a plausible narrative about how to placate the insurgents has already started to shape up. For Republicans and Democrats alike, in fact, it's just about the same: Sanders and Trump have tapped into voters who don't like free trade. While Bernie's brigades blew away expectations thanks to Michigan's industrial base, Trump beat back Kasich and Cruz by sticking out as the one guy who rejects the negative Beltway view of protectionism.

But can anyone imagine either party nudging an inch on trade? The pro-corporate consensus powering global trade deals like the Trans-Pacific Partnership is not overwhelming — after all, the TPP is still tied up in Congress — but it is strong enough to ensure its dominance even in a year with so much populism from left to right. What's more, the consensus is as strong as it is because elites know the consequences to our still-fragile international financial system if tariffs and trade wars become the next big thing. They're just unlikely to reconcile with their respective insurgencies on the flows of goods and services that shape the global economy.

That means they need to horse trade in some other way — or face the electoral consequences.

The major issue adjacent to trade is labor. It's the changing dispensation of workers and jobs that's behind the immigration animosity rankling Republicans, and it's the political touchstone for anti-corporate progressives who don't believe card check is more important than unions. Conceivably, either party could try to renegotiate their political compact with an economic platform that at least tries to protect American jobs if not protect favorable business conditions. But this too seems dead on arrival. An economy structured around growth for the cheapest and costliest wages can only be twisted so much to the advantage of the working and lower-middle classes. And neither party really believes they can make up in support among the despairing that they have lost with the merely anxious.

If trade, labor, and immigration are out, it's hard to find one realm of policy where America's insurgents are crying out for change and America's established leadership might be willing to change. Unless, of course, you look to the last big zone of economic politics — the financial industry. Hark back to Rick Perry's campaign, and you'll discover that the ballyhooed Texan actually rolled out a fairly serious plan for reforming Wall Street. Look ahead, meanwhile, and Elizabeth Warren will still enjoy the stalwart support of Democrats dissatisfied by Clinton's moneyed habits — and energized by Sanders' finance-focused campaign.

Perhaps the only way the party bigs can bank on a lasting victory in November is by turning, at long last, on the big banks. If not, today's bipartisan insurgency is set to drag on — with a deeper victory than Election Day staying stubbornly elusive.
 

wizards8507

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Trump rally in Chicago cancelled due to threatening protests inside and outside the arena.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.
 

wizards8507

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"No Trump! No KKK. No fascist USA."

"This is what Democracy looks like!"

Fucking barbarians. Human debris in that city. Using free speech to shut down free speech isn't free speech.

Sent from my Galaxy Note4 using Tapatalk.
 

irishnd31

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Lots of hard asses in there. Garbage on both sides. F'n embarrassing for the USA.
 

irishnd31

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That shit show was nothing more than trash being trash. Animals acting like animals.
 

gkIrish

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Mentioned earlier that he is holding a rally two blocks away from my place on Sunday. Could get interesting.
 

irishnd31

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Grow a beard. Look unshowered. Try to blend in if shit gets thick. Flannel as much as possible. You have thick hipster glasses? Wear them.
 

gkIrish

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Grow a beard. Look unshowered. Try to blend in if shit gets thick. Flannel as much as possible. You have thick hipster glasses? Wear them.

I've been tear gassed before and survived violent rioters in Greece haha. I'll be alright.
 

irishnd31

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This is why I absolutely f'n hate people. Bunch of tools trying to be louder than the next. And for what? To post their "coolness" on social media. Gtfo.
 
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