2016 Presidential Horse Race

2016 Presidential Horse Race


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wizards8507

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Made me unlazy - quick search yes he was very clear about abortion but open the door to contraception as "lesser of two evils" - not aware of Pope Paul VI in 60s allowing nuns in the Congo to take contraceptives to avoid pregnancy due to rape - what a mess that must have been at the time.
Pope Paul VI's statements on contraceptives are very different than what Francis is saying about Zika. In the cases of the African nuns, rape is not sex in the moral sense, i.e. a nun who is raped is still celibate. Therefore, immorality of contracepting during a sex act is a non-issue because there's no sex act. What Francis is saying about Zika is not the same thing. He's saying that, even within the context of a sex act, contraception is the lesser of two evils. The greater of those two evils is a child with birth defects. A child with birth defects is not evil.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Pope Paul VI's statements on contraceptives are very different than what Francis is saying about Zika. In the cases of the African nuns, rape is not sex in the moral sense, i.e. a nun who is raped is still celibate. Therefore, immorality of contracepting during a sex act is a non-issue because there's no sex act. What Francis is saying about Zika is not the same thing. He's saying that, even within the context of a sex act, contraception is the lesser of two evils. The greater of those two evils is a child with birth defects. A child with birth defects is not evil.

Not sure what statement you read, but Francis' didn't state that a married couple is morally justified in contracepting to avoid the risk of Zika-related birth defects.

In other news, did you know that HRC has never lied?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Jaw-dropping. <a href="https://t.co/WkEeZLCIZ2">https://t.co/WkEeZLCIZ2</a></p>— PEG (@pegobry) <a href="https://twitter.com/pegobry/status/700668288095821825">February 19, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Whiskeyjack

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Further confirmation that Francis was speaking metaphorically:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Vatican spox: "In no way was this a personal attack, nor indication of how to vote." <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Pope?src=hash">#Pope</a> believes people "should build bridges, not walls"</p>— Jon Williams (@WilliamsJon) <a href="https://twitter.com/WilliamsJon/status/700715605972774912">February 19, 2016</a></blockquote>
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Black Irish

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The pawn remarks are a sign to Pope Francis' humility, not his admission that he is an agent or lackey for the Mexican government.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

If that's what Pope Francis meant, he handled it badly. You can still be humble while denying that you are being used by a government for its political ends. Like I said, it was an easy pitch to hit. He could have said something like "I serve the Lord and the needs of my flock, but that does not mean that I am a pawn or agent of a nation's government." It's a knock on his credibility. He can't say if he's being used as a pawn or lackey, but when it comes to Trump, Pope Francis has no problem saying "Oh yeah, that's not how Christians act."
 

phgreek

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HRC and truth have a rather loose relationship. The thing she and Bill didn't realize...I think, is that lies are like lead weights for sure, but they are also like lead in your blood in that they never go away, and their accumulation is toxic, and all at once devastating. She may not be DONE (Thank you idiotic Democrat Super delegate process), but her ability to lead will be SOOOO diminished, she may as well stop now.
 

FightingIrishLover7

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How are posters criticizing the Pope, when all he said was the Christians should be building bridges, not walls?

Are you guys really going to get into a debate about whether or not he's trying to undermine Trump's campaign?

Donald Trump is the one that literally wants to build walls, which isn't Christian, and he's the one you should be critiquing.

Not a Pope that was obviously just dropping a metaphor about what a Christian should do.

And to anyone who thinks Francis is shady, have you idea the situation he inherited? Benedicts reign was awful, and Francis has already proven to be a moral advocate for all walks of life.

Keep the arguing to the scumbags running for president, not the guy who's trying to use a metaphor.
 

Whiskeyjack

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How are posters criticizing the Pope, when all he said was the Christians should be building bridges, not walls?

Are you guys really going to get into a debate about whether or not he's trying to undermine Trump's campaign?

Donald Trump is the one that literally wants to build walls, which isn't Christian, and he's the one you should be critiquing.

Not a Pope that was obviously just dropping a metaphor about what a Christian should do.

And to anyone who thinks Francis is shady, have you idea the situation he inherited? Benedicts reign was awful, and Francis has already proven to be a moral advocate for all walks of life.

Keep the arguing to the scumbags running for president, not the guy who's trying to use a metaphor.

lolwut? Francis praises him regularly. The following is from the very same interview he gave on the plane from Mexico:

Javier Solorzano, Canal 11 (Mexico): The subject of pedophilia, as you know, in Mexico has very dangerous roots, very hurtful. The case of Father Maciel left a strong mark, especially on the victims. The victims continue to feel unprotected by the Church. Many continue to be men of faith. Some are still even in the priesthood. I want to ask you, what do you think of this subject? Did you at any moment consider meeting with the victims? And, in general, this idea that when the priests are detected in cases of this nature, what is done is that they are moved to another parish, nothing more? Thanks.

Pope Francis: OK, I’m going to start with the second. First, a bishop who moves a priest to another parish when a case of pedophilia is discovered is a reckless (inconsciente) man and the best thing he can do is to present his resignation. Is that clear?

Secondly, going back, the Maciel case, and here, I allow myself to honor the man who fought in moments when he had no strength to impose himself, until he managed to impose himself. Ratzinger. Cardinal Ratzinger deserves applause. (applause) Yes, applause for him. He had all of the documentation. He’s a man who as the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith had everything in his hands. He conducted all the investigations, and went on, went on, went on, until he couldn’t go any further in the execution. But, if you remember, 10 days before the death of St. John Paul II, in that Via Crucis of Holy Friday, he said to the whole Church that it needed to clean up the dirt of the Church. And in the Pro-Eligendo Pontefice Mass, despite knowing that he was a candidate, he wasn’t stupid, he didn’t care to “make-up” his answer, he said exactly the same thing. He was the brave one who helped so many open this door. So, I want to remember him because sometimes we forget about this hidden works that were the foundations for “taking the lid off the pot.”

Sounds like you're reading American politics into the papacy as much or more than the posters you're criticizing here.
 
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Emcee77

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RDU Irish

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/varieties-of-voodoo.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Too many people are saying that Bernie's math doesn't add up, including people on the left, such as Paul Krugman, in the column I linked. I love some of his ideas, but they just are not realistic. I don't get why this isn't a bigger problem for his supporters.

This election is infuriating because most of the leading candidates don't pass the "get real" test.

Makes perfect sense if you are an underpants gnome.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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How are posters criticizing the Pope, when all he said was the Christians should be building bridges, not walls?

Are you guys really going to get into a debate about whether or not he's trying to undermine Trump's campaign?

Donald Trump is the one that literally wants to build walls, which isn't Christian, and he's the one you should be critiquing.

Not a Pope that was obviously just dropping a metaphor about what a Christian should do.

And to anyone who thinks Francis is shady, have you idea the situation he inherited? Benedicts reign was awful, and Francis has already proven to be a moral advocate for all walks of life.

Keep the arguing to the scumbags running for president, not the guy who's trying to use a metaphor.

Benedict was a boss.
 

GoIrish41

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/varieties-of-voodoo.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Too many people are saying that Bernie's math doesn't add up, including people on the left, such as Paul Krugman, in the column I linked. I love some of his ideas, but they just are not realistic. I don't get why this isn't a bigger problem for his supporters.

This election is infuriating because most of the leading candidates don't pass the "get real" test.

Let's be honest. Nobody's numbers add up. They all paint a rosy picture of their plans as if they have accounted for every dollar and every eventuality. It's not as if congress is going to rubber stamp anyone's proposals. They are a starting point for negotiations. As a liberal, I want the beginning of those negotiations to include the prospect of affordable college and universal healthcare as a right. Hillary's starting point is abandonment of the liberal ideals. She has conceded a lot of ground on a range of issues before she even begins. That is why I support Bernie. He won't get everything he wants -- nobody will. But he expands the conversation to the left and when negotiations conclude results will be far more inclusive of what liberals seek than beginning from a point of compromise.
 

BGIF

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What I find even more troubling with the Pope's quote is that he won't deny the direct charge that he is a" pawn, an instrument of the Mexican government for migration politics." He handled that badly. Pope Francis should have said that he was acting in accord with Catholic teaching, and denied that he is, in effect, taking sides in a political fight. It puts Pope Francis' assertion that Trump is not a Christian on shaky legs when the Pope can not or will not accurately assess if he is being used by the Mexican government for political ends.

BTW, my own personal opinion is that Trump is only a Christian in the sense that he was maybe raised in a mainline Christian tradition. The last time the guy was probably even in a church is if he was trying to buy it because it would make a good site for one of his condo complexes.

Didn't he go to church for Chelsea's wedding?
 

FightingIrishLover7

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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/19/opinion/varieties-of-voodoo.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

Too many people are saying that Bernie's math doesn't add up, including people on the left, such as Paul Krugman, in the column I linked. I love some of his ideas, but they just are not realistic. I don't get why this isn't a bigger problem for his supporters.

This election is infuriating because most of the leading candidates don't pass the "get real" test.
Most numbers don't add up, and frankly, they never really have. Our national budget never makes sense, but as long as money is "flowing", we'll be alright.

Not trying to defend one candidate over the other. I agree that Bernie's plan is the most bold, therefore the most "unforseen".

Also, models are just models, and there's a lot of assumptions that are made (even in the best economic models). So, all "forecasts" should be viewed with some skepticism.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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How are posters criticizing the Pope, when all he said was the Christians should be building bridges, not walls?

Are you guys really going to get into a debate about whether or not he's trying to undermine Trump's campaign?

Donald Trump is the one that literally wants to build walls, which isn't Christian, and he's the one you should be critiquing.

Not a Pope that was obviously just dropping a metaphor about what a Christian should do.

And to anyone who thinks Francis is shady, have you idea the situation he inherited? Benedicts reign was awful, and Francis has already proven to be a moral advocate for all walks of life.

Keep the arguing to the scumbags running for president, not the guy who's trying to use a metaphor.

This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.

1) I respect the Pope but disagree with him 100% on this issue. He's not running a country, and his comment is laughable considering he basically has his own army and lives behind a 40 FOOT WALL.

2) Why no criticism from the Pope towards the socialist utopia of Venezeula, a nation that is running out of food and an economy headed for collapse?

3) Mexico's immigration laws are 10x tougher and more strictly enforced than ours. Care to label them as non Christian, hate mongering racists like Trump?

4) Christianity is based in free will, not free entry to the nation of your choosing, or free college, free lunches, etc.
 

pkt77242

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This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.

1) I respect the Pope but disagree with him 100% on this issue. He's not running a country, and his comment is laughable considering he basically has his own army and lives behind a 40 FOOT WALL.

2) Why no criticism from the Pope towards the socialist utopia of Venezeula, a nation that is running out of food and an economy headed for collapse?

3) Mexico's immigration laws are 10x tougher and more strictly enforced than ours. Care to label them as non Christian, hate mongering racists like Trump?

4) Christianity is based in free will, not free entry to the nation of your choosing, or free college, free lunches, etc.

Care to elaborate on the bold? To me feeding the hungry is one of the most Christian acts you can do, so I find your comment baffling. I don't have my Bible right next to me but I believe that Matthew 25 covers it (maybe lines 30 and on?), though it is a theme throughout the Bible.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Care to elaborate on the bold? To me feeding the hungry is one of the most Christian acts you can do, so I find your comment baffling. I don't have my Bible right next to me but I believe that Matthew 25 covers it (maybe lines 30 and on?), though it is a theme throughout the Bible.

Sure. Give to the needy, feed the hungry, etc. are in the Bible. But all that is still based on the individual's free will, not government mandated action or some "social contract" that doesn't exist.

I was pointing out what I thought was absolute hypocrisy by the Pope and the comments that were put forth by fightingirishlover.
 

Whiskeyjack

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This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.

1) I respect the Pope but disagree with him 100% on this issue. He's not running a country, and his comment is laughable considering he basically has his own army and lives behind a 40 FOOT WALL.

2) Why no criticism from the Pope towards the socialist utopia of Venezeula, a nation that is running out of food and an economy headed for collapse?

3) Mexico's immigration laws are 10x tougher and more strictly enforced than ours. Care to label them as non Christian, hate mongering racists like Trump?

4) Christianity is based in free will, not free entry to the nation of your choosing, or free college, free lunches, etc.

/facepalm

Do you think Francis was condemning those who literally build walls, and praising those who literally build bridges? Or might he have been using metaphor to criticize Trump's divisive rhetoric?

Sure. Give to the needy, feed the hungry, etc. are in the Bible. But all that is still based on the individual's free will, not government mandated action or some "social contract" that doesn't exist.

I was pointing out what I thought was absolute hypocrisy by the Pope and the comments that were put forth by fightingirishlover.

Acts 2: 44-45:

All who believed were together and had all things in common;

they would sell their property and possessions and divide them among all according to each one’s need.

Those Christian Commie bastards...

And don't get me started on the Catholic Church creating the first welfare systems in medieval Europe funded through compulsory tithes collected by the crown.

How did Christians ever get along before God handed down capitalism as his favored form of economics?
 

FightingIrishLover7

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This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.

1) I respect the Pope but disagree with him 100% on this issue. He's not running a country, and his comment is laughable considering he basically has his own army and lives behind a 40 FOOT WALL.

2) Why no criticism from the Pope towards the socialist utopia of Venezeula, a nation that is running out of food and an economy headed for collapse?

3) Mexico's immigration laws are 10x tougher and more strictly enforced than ours. Care to label them as non Christian, hate mongering racists like Trump?

4) Christianity is based in free will, not free entry to the nation of your choosing, or free college, free lunches, etc.
Why are you afraid of government programs that try to help others? Are you against living in a nation where our government tries to feed our hungry and heal our sick?

As a Christian, I want to do anything and everything we can to help those in need. And if God forbid that means a tax increase for me, I'd be willing to do so.



Also, as someone as already pointed out, Francis was clearly speaking metaphorically. What Trump is spreading is more than wall building. He's a xenophobic demagogue that's using racial and international fear mongering to scare confused Americans into radicalism.
 
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B

Buster Bluth

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Do you think Francis was condemning those who literally build walls, and praising those who literally build bridges?

lol doesn't Pontifex also have the literal translation "bridge-builder"?

Checkmate Trumpeters.
 
C

Cackalacky

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This is the most ridiculous post I've seen in a long time.

1) I respect the Pope but disagree with him 100% on this issue. He's not running a country, and his comment is laughable considering he basically has his own army and lives behind a 40 FOOT WALL.

2) Why no criticism from the Pope towards the socialist utopia of Venezeula, a nation that is running out of food and an economy headed for collapse?

3) Mexico's immigration laws are 10x tougher and more strictly enforced than ours. Care to label them as non Christian, hate mongering racists like Trump?

4) Christianity is based in free will, not free entry to the nation of your choosing, or free college, free lunches, etc.

Lolfuckinl

Gordon Gecko would be proud.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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/facepalm

Do you think Francis was condemning those who literally build walls, and praising those who literally build bridges? Or might he have been using metaphor to criticize Trump's divisive rhetoric?



Acts 2: 44-45:



Those Christian Commie bastards...

And don't get me started on the Catholic Church creating the first welfare systems in medieval Europe funded through compulsory tithes collected by the crown.

How did Christians ever get along before God handed down capitalism as his favored form of economics?

I can't speak for the Pope, but I can comment on what he said and point out the hypocrisy.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Why are you afraid of government programs that try to help others? Are you against living in a nation where our government tries to feed our hungry and heal our sick?

As a Christian, I want to do anything and everything we can to help those in need. And if God forbid that means a tax increase for me, I'd be willing to do so.



Also, as someone as already pointed out, Francis was clearly speaking metaphorically. What Trump is spreading is more than wall building. He's a xenophobic demagogue that's using racial and international fear mongering to scare confused Americans into radicalism.

You sound like you're 17. How old are you? If that's the case I'll just ignore your posts. I have no interest in debating with a teenager.

It's always "government program" or "people will starve and die" with you. Those are the only two options. Ends the argument.

We all pay taxes for government programs that house and feed people every day. If you want to contribute more, then start writing checks to those departments. I'll continue donating to the 3 charities of my CHOOSING aside from that. See the difference?

My original point was that Christianity is based on free will, not free entry to any country you want, or free college, or free healthcare, or free lunch. My point wasn't that I want kids to starve. My point was that it isn't free. Someone has to pay for it.

Oh and the Pope lives behind an army and a 40 feet wall. Still got love for the holy man, but was disappointed in what he said.

I've also noticed that no one wanted to comment on the Mexico (tougher immigration laws than the US) or Venezuela (people waiting in line for HOURS for rice and milk) sections of that post from last night.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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Again I'll ask why not more criticism from the Pope (and everyone, really) on Venezuela? In the US we DO care for the poor through government programs (effectiveness can be debated) and nonprofit orgs. Meanwhile in Venezuela, people really are starving because the government took over everything and promised everything for "the people."

Venezuela’s Food Shortages Trigger Long Lines, Hunger and Looting - WSJ

“What’s certain is that we are going very hungry here and the children are suffering a lot,” said María Palma, a 55-year-old grandmother who on a recent blistering hot day had been standing in line at the grocery store since 3 a.m. before walking away empty-handed at midday.

Resident Yusleidy Márquez said she too fears the worst. The basket of subsidized food the government gives her mother every 15 days only feeds her family for two days. Lately, she only eats a cornmeal patty for lunch because she can’t afford more.

“I think we’re going to die of hunger,” she said.
 
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