2016 Presidential Horse Race

[IrishLax]

1) Which establishment(s) is he anti?

2) You keep using the word socialist, would you mind replying with a list of things that make Bernie a socialist. I just want to better understand if I'm a socialist. The political polls I've taken have strongly aligned me with Bernie.

This isn't an easy question to answer, because there actually isn't a single accepted definition of socialism. It changes depending on context and who you talk to.

In general though, it's an economic/political theory that proposes the "community" (i.e. Government) controls and regulates and manages everything. It's in direct contrast to laissez-faire capitalism. The US already has a lot of socialism (e.g. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae), but also is hands off in other areas.

What Bernie is proposing is drastically increasing Government spending and involvement past its current level in order to cure social ills and stabilize the economy.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

1) Which establishment(s) is he anti?

2) You keep using the word socialist, would you mind replying with a list of things that make Bernie a socialist. I just want to better understand if I'm a socialist. The political polls I've taken have strongly aligned me with Bernie.

1) I'm talking about the GOP establishment...the DC shitheads I noted earlier who for the past few elections pushed on us McCain, Romney, Jeb, etc. He is not their choice, he doesn't care what their opinion is, and does not ask for their blessing.

2) I wouldn't be shocked if you aligned with socialist ideals.

Universal healthcare
Progressive income taxes on everyone, not just "the rich."
"Free" college
Massive wealth redistribution
"Making housing more affordable"

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

This isn't an easy question to answer, because there actually isn't a single accepted definition of socialism. It changes depending on context and who you talk to.

In general though, it's an economic/political theory that proposes the "community" (i.e. Government) controls and regulates and manages everything. It's in direct contrast to laissez-faire capitalism. The US already has a lot of socialism (e.g. Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae), but also is hands off in other areas.

What Bernie is proposing is drastically increasing Government spending and involvement past its current level in order to cure social ills and stabilize the economy.

What Bernie is proposing makes me wonder how he passed elementary math.

 

[Cackalacky]

Bernie is more of a social democrat like modern European country are right now. Their economies are mixed socialism and capitalism. A big difference in their economy versus our economy is that the public gets to share the benefits of the economy while the corporations also get to share in the risks in their actions. America's system is set up so that the benefits are privatised and the risks are socialised.

It should also be noted in addition to Lax's answer that socialism has a different connotation elsewhere in the world than it does here. Much like Libertarians. Libertarians in the rest of the world are actually anarchosocialists.

 

[phgreek]

not exactly a laundry list of socialism...but in his own words, what he thinks he is...

Q&A with Bernie Sanders: What he means by socialism | OnPolitics

I'm not a fan of the Bern, for a number of reasons...primarily PRACTICALITY...

 

[Buster Bluth]

This isn't an easy question to answer, because there actually isn't a single accepted definition of socialism. It changes depending on context and who you talk to.

Totally agree but..

In general though, it's an economic/political theory that proposes the "community" (i.e. Government) controls and regulates and manages everything.

I think this sentence got further away from a general definition of socialism with each word.

 

[Buster Bluth]

What Bernie is proposing makes me wonder how he passed elementary math.

Ah math, yet another thing the "more socialist" countries are better at than us.

 

[Cackalacky]

Let's talk in 2016 when Biden is in, and Bernie has to start kissing some serious Democratic fundraisers' asses to keep his campaign going.

I don't think he would do that if Biden does manage to overtake him. He seems like the kind of guy that has one chance and is taking it, but from what I have read he has never been beholden to anyone.

He has been a very loud voice for a constitutional amendment banning money in politics. I would be shocked to seem him even attempting to kiss ass of any donor.

I can tell he is being mostly forthright in everything I have read. He walked into Liberty University and told thousands of kids he knows they don't agree on several topics but there are many where they do agree and he would like to work towards those goals together. As opposed to Cruz who went all "when I was a boy in Canada"....blehhhhhck..... vom.

He is also, so far the only candidate I have heard say, he just wants to be the best president he can be. That's kind of a big deal IMO. I think he believes it too. None of the other candidates make me think they actually want to be the best president they can be, rather, they just want to be president.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Ah math, yet another thing the "more socialist" countries are better at than us.

Although that has zero correlation to what we're discussing, you're right. Many do score better in math than US students. It's a big problem I've brought up here many times. And many of those countries' education systems are far more efficient and less centralized than ours.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Although that has zero correlation to what we're discussing, you're right. Many do score better in math than US students. It's a big problem I've brought up here many times. And many of those countries' education systems are far more efficient and less centralized than ours.

They also pay teachers better and respect those who choose the profession.

 

[IrishLax]

I think this sentence got further away from a general definition of socialism with each word.

Disagree? I mean, I didn't look it up or anything so maybe I'm way off, but my understanding of socialism is that the basic tenet is that the "community" regulation/ownership. In the United States of America when a Presidential candidate talks about social he means passing laws that will utilize public funds for public control/goods/service.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Although that has zero correlation to what we're discussing, you're right. Many do score better in math than US students. It's a big problem I've brought up here many times. And many of those countries' education systems are far more efficient and less centralized than ours.

We're discussing, generally, the level of government involvement in our society and economy. I'm merely pointing out that math is one of many many many things in which those backwards socialists are beating us.

 

[Cackalacky]

Disagree? I mean, I didn't look it up or anything so maybe I'm way off, but my understanding of socialism is that the basic tenet is that the "community" regulation/ownership. In the United States of America when a Presidential candidate talks about social he means passing laws that will utilize public funds for public control/goods/service.

Socialism can include co-ops, common ownership and nationalism or capitalism, or a combination of each. It's a complex term with no hard criteria. Socialists tend to achieve the desired ends through reformation not revolutions. The state has a major role because it is typically the vehicle that allows the reforms to occur without having to be revolutionary.

Generally yes the public gives more control to the government in order to provide a more stable society and economy.

 

[kmoose]

By ANY definition, Socialism includes the government owning major businesses, if not all of the businesses. I don't think Sanders is advocating government ownership of corporations, but I am not an expert on his platform.

 

[GoldenDome]

By ANY definition, Socialism includes the government owning major businesses, if not all of the businesses. I don't think Sanders is advocating government ownership of corporations, but I am not an expert on his platform.

Sanders is a Democratic Socialist. He always uses Denmark as an example in terms of his social policies.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Taking cash and spending time on your knees begging people for money are not the same.

Donald Trump allies quietly seek money from rich, anonymous patrons - CNNPolitics.com

Trump attended big-donor fundraiser last month - POLITICO

How is this different from everyone else?

 

[Wild Bill]

Ah math, yet another thing the "more socialist" countries are better at than us.

Switzerland appears to be doing just fine with mathematics yet it's one of the most capitalist economies in the world.

 

[kmoose]

Donald Trump allies quietly seek money from rich, anonymous patrons - CNNPolitics.com

Trump attended big-donor fundraiser last month - POLITICO

How is this different from everyone else?

You go to a Notre Dame game at Stanford. You have in-laws that live in the Bay Area, who offer to let you stay at their place for the weekend. There is no way you could afford to stay in a hotel for the weekend, so you graciously accept. When you arrive, your in-laws have a list of "conditions" that you must meet, in order to stay at their house. You are now stuck abiding by their conditions, as you have made commitments to be at the game. Maybe you are taking an important client to the game. So now you are stuck. You have no other real option than to do as your in-laws wish. Even if you don't abide by their plan to the letter, you still are going to have to compromise with them.

Now let's say that you can afford not only to stay in a hotel, but to take a limo to and from the game. When your in-laws try to place these "conditions" on you, you simply tell them, "Thank you for your generous offer, but this is both a pleasure trip and a business trip, and I will need the meeting space that the hotel provides." There isn't any meeting, you just aren't going to allow your in-laws to use you simply because they did a favor for you.

Now do you see the difference?

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

You go to a Notre Dame game at Stanford. You have in-laws that live in the Bay Area, who offer to let you stay at their place for the weekend. There is no way you could afford to stay in a hotel for the weekend, so you graciously accept. When you arrive, your in-laws have a list of "conditions" that you must meet, in order to stay at their house. You are now stuck abiding by their conditions, as you have made commitments to be at the game. Maybe you are taking an important client to the game. So now you are stuck. You have no other real option than to do as your in-laws wish. Even if you don't abide by their plan to the letter, you still are going to have to compromise with them.

Now let's say that you can afford not only to stay in a hotel, but to take a limo to and from the game. When your in-laws try to place these "conditions" on you, you simply tell them, "Thank you for your generous offer, but this is both a pleasure trip and a business trip, and I will need the meeting space that the hotel provides." There isn't any meeting, you just aren't going to allow your in-laws to use you simply because they did a favor for you.

Now do you see the difference?

I'm fairly certain I understand the intention of the story but not how it applies to Trump and donors.

 

[kmoose]

I'm fairly certain I understand the intention of the story but not how it applies to Trump and donors.

What makes Trump different is that he doesn't need the donations. He can fund his campaign all on his own. But why not take some, even though you can afford not to? If it helps keep an extra $10M in your pocket, then more power to you.

However, comma;

Because he doesn't need the donations, he owes those who donated no quid pro quo. Like he said......... if Chrysler tries to move a plant to Mexico, and he imposes strict tariffs on those products coming back in to the US, the Auto Industry lobby cannot threaten to cut off his funding, or fund his opponent, in the next election. Neither can they say to him, "Look, help us out here and we can help you out with guaranteed speaker's fees, after you leave office."

So, even if he does take money from people, he is not beholden to them, because he is not a professional politician and he is already immensely wealthy.

That, alone, doesn't mean that anyone should vote for him. But it IS a big plus for him.

 

[GoIrish41]

Sanders bill would end for-profit prisons, immigrant detention - POLITICO

Sanders doing work. These are the kinds of proposals that broaden his appeal to the electorate by taking aim at real problems in this country. Incentivizing incarcerations coupled with the war on drugs has made us the world leader in locking up our own citizens.

 

[kmoose]

Sanders bill would end for-profit prisons, immigrant detention - POLITICO

Sanders doing work. These are the kinds of proposals that broaden his appeal to the electorate by taking aim at real problems in this country. Incentivizing incarcerations coupled with the war on drugs has made us the world leader in locking up our own citizens.

How is he going to pay for it?

 

[GoIrish41]

How is he going to pay for it?

It is likely to be a cost savings if it means we can building prisons to keep up with the steadily growing demand.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

and we all know who will pay for it all... everyone. else. His slogan should be, "Lets Git Em America!!"

Whoa wait...a socialist's ideas and the math that go along with it don't add up? No shit.

Regarding Sanders $18 Trillion proposal, it seems like your math skills and understanding are flawed in this particular debate.

The U.S. currently already spends about $3T per year on healthcare. It's estimated over the next decade that the U.S. will spend $42T. Bernie's estimated ten year plan is $15T. $27T LESS.

You can argue against socialism in other areas. This is not one of them. That article that got posted by the WSJ was horribly written and totally biased.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Regarding Sanders $18 Trillion proposal, it seems like your math skills and understanding are flawed in this particular debate.

The U.S. currently already spends about $3T per year on healthcare. It's estimated over the next decade that the U.S. will spend $42T. Bernie's estimated ten year plan is $15T. $27T LESS.

You can argue against socialism in other areas. This is not one of them. That article that got posted by the WSJ was horribly written and totally biased.

Well that's comforting. Estimated. Welp...debate over! lol give me a break

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Sanders bill would end for-profit prisons, immigrant detention - POLITICO

Sanders doing work. These are the kinds of proposals that broaden his appeal to the electorate by taking aim at real problems in this country. Incentivizing incarcerations coupled with the war on drugs has made us the world leader in locking up our own citizens.

First, Sanders is doing no work. As of now all he's doing is talking.

Second, what about the illegal immigrants breaking our laws at the border? What about the drug lords? The gangs? The human trafficking?

 

[GoIrish41]

First, Sanders is doing no work. As of now all he's doing is talking.

Second, what about the illegal immigrants breaking our laws at the border? What about the drug lords? The gangs? The human trafficking?

Not sure your post has anything to do with what you hilighted in my post.

 

[woolybug25]

First, Sanders is doing no work. As of now all he's doing is talking.

Second, what about the illegal immigrants breaking our laws at the border? What about the drug lords? The gangs? The human trafficking?

Maybe build a huge wall across private property, native land, across rivers, mountains and all paid for by Mexico... There's some logic...

Reagan believed in amnesty, btw...

 

[kmoose]

Reagan believed in amnesty, btw...

And the estimated number of illegal immigrants in the country has nearly quadrupled since Reagan took office. From 3 million to almost 12 million. That wasn't the result of Reagan supporting amnesty, but it IS quite a different problem today than it was then.

 

[Grahambo]

Anybody here run for any local political office?