Notre Dame to consider starting it's own football league.

[wizards8507]

I don't understand why people would care if players were making millions from boosters/endorsements as long as they were still students going to real classes and doing real work and getting real degrees.

I agree with you in principle, but the devil's advocate argument is that you'd get some "independent" car dealer from Tuscaloosa offering a five star recruit a $750,000 advertising deal.

The bigger issue right now is that you have some schools like Notre Dame that are willing to go CSI and bust out digital forensics with teams of investigators to uncover plagiarism (likely at the cost of vacated wins), and then you have schools like UNC where an entire department of faculty is complicit in grade fixing/fake classes.

Say what? That's likely, now?

 

[GATTACA!]

So now you know the intentions of those donating to the Campus Crossroads project? I bet that Philbin, DeBartolo, Dolan, Rice, Mendoza, Moynihan, Criqui, Donahue, and Ohlmeyer would be donating just as much, even if ND didn't play football.

We have no way of knowing either way. I'm sure some would donate regardless, but I would bet that the majority of those donations were related to football. Feel free to disagree, I just think it's nieve to think that donations for a football facility didn't have anything to do with the football program.

 

[Corry]

I refuse to believe that athletic directors don't have a good idea how much revenue they will bring in during a given year. If they choose to spend more than that, its on them. The 22nd team (based on revenue) in CFB in 2008 was FSU they brought in 73 million big ones. Now if it costs 72 million to run a division 1 college football program I'll say I'm wrong, but I don't think it does.

 

[BobbyMac]

I refuse to believe that athletic directors don't have a good idea how much revenue they will bring in during a given year. If they choose to spend more than that, its on them. The 22nd team (based on revenue) in CFB in 2008 was FSU they brought in 73 million big ones. Now if it costs 72 million to run a division 1 college football program I'll say I'm wrong, but I don't think it does.

Median total expenses at institutions in the five highest-resource FBS conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC) was $81.7 million.

- per the NCAA.

 

[Rhode Irish]

Why does he have to get paid?

Because he is a human whose efforts are resulting in revenue?

 

[kmoose]

We have no way of knowing either way. I'm sure some would donate regardless, but I would bet that the majority of those donations were related to football. Feel free to disagree, I just think it's nieve to think that donations for a football facility didn't have anything to do with the football program.

But the Campus Crossroads is NOT "a football facility". What they are trying to do is marry the athletic tradition with the academic tradition. They are building academic facilities that are designed to emanate from the stadium outward. Call it an homage to their football tradition. Please take the time to read this: FAQs // Campus Crossroads Project // University of Notre Dame

It's an excellent summary/synopsis of what the Campus Crossroads project is all about.

 

[ND NYC]

soooo sick of this whole issue

we have raised a whole generation of "what's in it for me" kids

 

[Whiskeyjack]

We have no way of knowing either way. I'm sure some would donate regardless, but I would bet that the majority of those donations were related to football. Feel free to disagree, I just think it's nieve to think that donations for a football facility didn't have anything to do with the football program.

You realize that you're arguing with several actual alumni, all of whom are stating unequivocally that we'd donate to ND regardless of the football program, and we're certain (as Jenkins asserted in the NYT article) that the vast majority of alumni feel similarly. But that's inconvenient to your argument, so feel free to continue projecting your cynical worldview onto people you obviously know nothing about.

Median total expenses at institutions in the five highest-resource FBS conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC) was $81.7 million.

- per the NCAA.

Stuff your "facts", Crusader. Every one of the top 22 FBS programs is a modern plantation, shamelessly exploiting vulnerable young minorities for profit.

 

[kmoose]

Because he is a human whose efforts are resulting in revenue?

And his efforts are being compensated. What's the problem?

 

[jerboski]

Why is it recreation for the player and not for the coach? The player is generating revenue with his efforts. Calling that "recreation" is disingenuous. If a college swim team or marching band makes money, then they should share that with the swimmers and band members. If they don't make money off it, then it is recreation. You have a ton of old people who aren't doing the actual marketable thing that people are paying for drawing huge salaries, but the people making the biggest contributions don't deserve anything?


Should high school players make money as well, after all they generate revenue for their high school? Their coaches have a salary..... Where do we draw the line?

 

[Rhode Irish]

Stop with all the pay the players because... "they make the school millions" talk.

Read this and put it to bed.

Growth in Division I athletics expenses outpaces revenue increases | NCAA.org - The Official Site of the NCAA

Profits don't have anything to do with it. Plenty of people work for companies that do not make a profit and still pay their employees. My argument has nothing to do with profits, only revenues. As you've noted, most schools are willing to operate their football programs in the red, so paying their most valuable contributors should be doable. Figure out a revenue split with players (say 2% of revenues goes to players, who split the pool evenly) and let them get some of what they are generating for the school.

 

[Corry]

Median total expenses at institutions in the five highest-resource FBS conferences (ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC) was $81.7 million.

- per the NCAA.

Well damn. I was wrong.

 

[Wild Bill]

So as long as they are getting the bare minimum, we're good and have fulfilled our moral obligation? Why can't they have more than meeting their basic needs, considering what their efforts mean for their university, financially? Brian Kelly gets more than his basic needs met; why shouldn't his players? I feel like the athletes are viewed like chattel by college football fans; like we give them a free education so they are ours to do with what we please. I just see it the opposite way.

You see it the opposite way b/c you're assuming they're given the bare minimum and that they're treated like chattel. I played college ball, as did many of my close friends. Most of them at small schools but a couple of them played for blue bloods. None of us were treated like chattel and we were given far more than the bare minimum. The coaches and universities would do anything in their power to make sure we were comfortable.

 

[GATTACA!]

But the Campus Crossroads is NOT "a football facility". What they are trying to do is marry the athletic tradition with the academic tradition. They are building academic facilities that are designed to emanate from the stadium outward. Call it an homage to their football tradition. Please take the time to read this: FAQs // Campus Crossroads Project // University of Notre Dame

It's an excellent summary/synopsis of what the Campus Crossroads project is all about.

I know exactly what the crossroads project it is. They are adding classroom and meeting space. They are also adding a jumbotron aluminum seating new pressboxes and more/bigger seating. Like I said I'm sure some of those donors would have donated regardless of the connection to football. The majority however, IMO donated primarily because of the improvements to the stadium and game day experience. A huge portion would still have donated if you cut all of the academic related upgrades from the plans.

We have no way of knowing the answer to this anyways.

 

[Rhode Irish]

And his efforts are being compensated. What's the problem?

Go back and read everything I've written in here. I'm not going to rewrite it all for you because you don't want to put in the effort.

 

[BobbyMac]

soooo sick of this whole issue

we have raised a whole generation of "what's in it for me" kids

Good. Those are wise kids. My parents taught me that I had value and that time was money. I'd be hard pressed to think of anything I don't ask myself a wiifm. It's human.

When the majority of kids we're raising say, "Gimme, and I ain't doin sh!t for it"... then I'll worry because that's full blown socialism.

 

[jerboski]

Go back and read everything I've written in here. I'm not going to rewrite it all for you because you don't want to put in the effort.

I'm just curious should high school players be paid as well? They generate revenue for their school as well...

 

[BobbyMac]

Well damn. I was wrong.

Maybe not, so keep your head up! lol

Your FSU dollars were in '08's... my median costs were from.... I don't know! It was from a NCAA article from Oct of last year so maybe '13 or '12.

 

[GATTACA!]

projecting your cynical worldview onto people you obviously know nothing about.

Please explain to me what is cynical about saying that I believe many of the people donating to a stadium expansion are donating because they love Notre Dame football?

 

[greyhammer90]

eThis argument is the closest one to being acceptable to me, but again, I am not arguing that these kids should be getting big signing bonuses and 6 or 7 figure salaries. Just give the kids something for the time they are putting in (which is generating revenue for the schools). Sure, the opportunity for an education is a nice perk, but why do the kids need to take a vow of poverty? They aren't training to be monks.



First of all, if they are basing the calculation on the max practice time allowed with coaches (the "20/8 rule"), then they are underestimating the time investment by about 250%. Second of all, the value of the education they are getting in return varies greatly, so you'd end up with a pretty big range and the "average" would be pretty tough to pin down and basically meaningless. And access to athletic facilities and medical and training staffs doesn't really persuade me, since it isn't like that is a huge privilege - it is a responsibility for an athlete. They wouldn't be using those things if they weren't athletes.


I continue to be amazed that people are soooo invested in and committed to the idea that kids shouldn't be given anything for their time and efforts. What is it to you, really? Some antiquated ideal about "true amateurism"? Just seems silly to me that anyone would be on the side of anyone not getting paid for their service.

The problem I have with all of your arguments is that they solve nothing except saying "Give more money!" You say you don't want players to be paid millions of dollars but you say they should be paid "something." The problem is that they are paid something. They get stipends already on top of all their other perks (food, clothes, gear, on campus housing, and of course the scholarship). So really all you're saying is that they should get paid more, but not too much, but more. So let's say your dream came true, what do you think would happen next? Even ignoring all the other effects this would have on an athletic department (Title IX, etc.), it would just lead to players asking for more money. At some point you've got to pick a side, either complete amateurism (unfair to some student athletes, a boon for others) or players getting paid their FMV (more issues than I can list, complete shift of the entire collegiate system and total destruction of multiple athletic departments)

Im on my phone so sorry about grammar, bluntness, etc.

 

[BeauBenken]

Does this mean I have to start paying my junior high football players?

 

[kmoose]

Go back and read everything I've written in here. I'm not going to rewrite it all for you because you don't want to put in the effort.

I've read it all, and I'm still waiting for you to come up with something that doesn't sound like a 5 year old child, crying, "But it's not faaaaiiiiiirrrrrrr!"

 

[Rhode Irish]

You see it the opposite way b/c you're assuming they're given the bare minimum and that they're treated like chattel. I played college ball, as did many of my close friends. Most of them at small schools but a couple of them played for blue bloods. None of us were treated like chattel and we were given far more than the bare minimum. The coaches and universities would do anything in their power to make sure we were comfortable.

I'm not saying they are actually treated like chattel. I'm saying that the attitude that they shouldn't be paid is reflective of an attitude that thinks of them as chattel. Again, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be in favor of letting them make a little something. If you care about the players, shouldn't you want them to be taken care of to the extent possible? A free education is good, but wouldn't a free education plus some money be better?

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm not saying they are actually treated like chattel. I'm saying that the attitude that they shouldn't be paid is reflective of an attitude that thinks of them as chattel. Again, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be in favor of letting them make a little something. If you care about the players, shouldn't you want them to be taken care of to the extent possible? A free education is good, but wouldn't a free education plus some money be better?

So when does it stop? When does it no longer become about the education? How long before the money completely drowns out the education?

 

[IrishLion]

1. Every DI athlete on athletic scholarship (all sports) gets paid minimum wage based on practice hours (up to the 20-hour/week limit).

2. Paychecks will be awarded by semester OR collected in an account and distributed as a lump sum upon graduation. The account on the lump-sum option could be a student savings account that gathers interest over their 4/5 years on campus.

3. If a student fails to maintain eligibility, or does not achieve a minimum GPA requirement in a semester, the practice-hours pay for that semester will not be granted.

4. If a student does not finish school, there is a penalty (50% ?) on the money that they can receive. The remaining money can be recycled for future athletes.


Tell me where all of the holes in my plan are!

 

[tussin]

I'm not saying they are actually treated like chattel. I'm saying that the attitude that they shouldn't be paid is reflective of an attitude that thinks of them as chattel. Again, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be in favor of letting them make a little something. If you care about the players, shouldn't you want them to be taken care of to the extent possible? A free education is good, but wouldn't a free education plus some money be better?

I am going to make this argument to my boss. Yes, I'm paid a good amount of money.... but don't you care about me? Wouldn't it be better if you paid me more money?

 

[jerboski]

I'm not saying they are actually treated like chattel. I'm saying that the attitude that they shouldn't be paid is reflective of an attitude that thinks of them as chattel. Again, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't be in favor of letting them make a little something. If you care about the players, shouldn't you want them to be taken care of to the extent possible? A free education is good, but wouldn't a free education plus some money be better?

So when does it stop? When does it no longer become about the education? How long before the money completely drowns out the education?

This is the point he is missing, it will eventually become a semi-pro auction for athletes and the educational part will be an after thought

 

[Luckylucci]

1. Every DI athlete on athletic scholarship (all sports) gets paid minimum wage based on practice hours (up to the 20-hour/week limit).

2. Paychecks will be awarded by semester OR collected in an account and distributed as a lump sum upon graduation. The account on the lump-sum option could be a student savings account that gathers interest over their 4/5 years on campus.

3. If a student fails to maintain eligibility, or does not achieve a minimum GPA requirement in a semester, the practice-hours pay for that semester will not be granted.

4. If a student does not finish school, there is a penalty (50% ?) on the money that they can receive. The remaining money can be recycled for future athletes.


Tell me where all of the holes in my plan are!

Interesting idea, the part of graduating makes it appealing to me.

One thought, different states have different min. wages. Would you just use the federal number or could you change it based upon the state you live in.

 

[pumpdog20]

You realize that you're arguing with several actual alumni, all of whom are stating unequivocally that we'd donate to ND regardless of the football program, and we're certain (as Jenkins asserted in the NYT article) that the vast majority of alumni feel similarly. But that's inconvenient to your argument, so feel free to continue projecting your cynical worldview onto people you obviously know nothing about.



Stuff your "facts", Crusader. Every one of the top 22 FBS programs is a modern plantation, shamelessly exploiting vulnerable young minorities for profit.

Maybe you would still donate, but would you still be this huge UND "fan" if it weren't for the football program? There are many catholic colleges and universities in this country. One of them stands out above all others, and it's because of football. What was your reason for going? Would your degree be worth as much or have this national alumni base to network with if it weren't for the football?

If it weren't the case, why do parents of recruits love ND? Why aren't they clamoring to send them to Vandy or Duke or NW, or Rice? According to some rankings these schools are higher. Yet when it comes to the "40 yr decisions" conversation. It's SEC or ND (for our southern recruits).

Without the high profile football, your school is just another in long list of regionally universities that are expensive and have hard acceptance standards. Getting rid of big time football would be a mistake. It'll still have well to do alumni like yourself who will love it and donate. But there's a lot more folks like who didn't go to school there but donate in our own ways through ticket purchases and apparel sales that would go away. Now before you respond with a 10 page source on how I'm wrong, just know that I have ADD and won't read it, so consider youself the victor.

 

[Rhode Irish]

I've read it all, and I'm still waiting for you to come up with something that doesn't sound like a 5 year old child, crying, "But it's not faaaaiiiiiirrrrrrr!"

Ok, I can't help you then. I don't mind if you disagree with me, but if you can't follow my arguments that is a you problem.

The problem I have with all of your arguments is that they solve nothing except saying "Give more money!" You say you don't want players to be paid millions of dollars but you say they should be paid "something." The problem is that they are paid something. They get stipends already on top of all their other perks (food, clothes, gear, on campus housing, and of course the scholarship). So really all you're saying is that they should get paid more, but not too much, but more. So let's say your dream came true, what do you think would happen next? Even ignoring all the other effects this would have on an athletic department (Title IX, etc.), it would just lead to players asking for more money. At some point you've got to pick a side, either complete amateurism (unfair to some student athletes, a boon for others) or players getting paid their FMV (more issues than I can list, complete shift of the entire collegiate system and total destruction of multiple athletic departments)

Im on my phone so sorry about grammar, bluntness, etc.

I concede 100% that I don't have the solution all thought out. But I do believe it is obscene that in a sport that generates so much revenue doesn't share any of it with the people most responsible for generating the revenue.