ESPN sues Notre Dame over police records

ulukinatme

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ESPN isn't trying to dig up files to right some injustice or fight some noble cause. It's about hits, anything they can find that will make a story. Sadly something that would be common at a big state school would likely never make the news, but it would at Notre Dame, and that's what they're digging.

At the end of the day, the people who need to have access to the records have that authorization.
 

IrishLax

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It's a kinja blog, not a gawker property but ok. My comment about agreeing with the author was specifically with respect to one point, which I had quoted before Lax edited my post:

Sorry, that was a sloppy edit. And you're right that Kinja isn't technically part of Gawker Media (despite being a Nick Denton property that effectively is Gawker... it's just the platform that links all of Gawker together and also brings in other blogs). So my bad... Above The Law isn't a Gawker Media owned blog, ATL Redline is just part of the Kinja network.

From ATL's site:
ATL Redline is a new project for Breaking Media that will represent Above the Law’s presence on Kinja, Gawker Media’s popular publishing platform.
 

IrishLax

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ESPN isn't trying to dig up files to right some injustice or fight some noble cause. It's about hits, anything they can find that will make a story. Sadly something that would be common at a big state school would likely never make the news, but it would at Notre Dame, and that's what they're digging.

At the end of the day, the people who need to have access to the records have that authorization.

The way this ends is with Indiana changing the law, and then Notre Dame stripping down NDSP's power to fit under whatever "security guard" statute they can that will allow them to remain private.
 

MNIrishman

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I don't know why the author is trying to make ND out to be a bad guy here. Regardless of anyone's opinion, the Irish are on the side of the law. If the law gets changed, then the Irish will follow the changed law. It's that simple. Do these guys get pissed at people who don't consent to search at a police stop? The law says you don't have open the car just because someone asks. That doesn't make you a bad person, and you don't necessarily have anything to hide just because you don't want eyes in your business.
 

Rhode Irish

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I don't know why the author is trying to make ND out to be a bad guy here. Regardless of anyone's opinion, the Irish are on the side of the law. If the law gets changed, then the Irish will follow the changed law. It's that simple. Do these guys get pissed at people who don't consent to search at a police stop? The law says you don't have open the car just because someone asks. That doesn't make you a bad person, and you don't necessarily have anything to hide just because you don't want eyes in your business.

I think this is an oversimplification. The issue of an individual's rights during a traffic stop is settled law. This isn't. Notre Dame won at the trial court level but that isn't necessarily the final word on what the law is. The author is not a reporter, he's a practicing attorney. The Indiana AG is also a practicing attorney. So are ESPN's lawyers. They may all end up being wrong, but it is by no means obvious at this stage that Notre Dame's position here is legally sound. They're entitled to it and they are entitled to act in their own self interest, whatever they believe that to be. But it would not be shocking if the end result here is a decision that states that if you exercise powers that can only be granted by a government then you're necessarily a state actor and subject to the same disclosure and oversight rules as all other state actors. In fact, I think that is a rather likely and reasonable result.
 

IrishLax

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I think this is an oversimplification. The issue of an individual's rights during a traffic stop is settled law. This isn't. Notre Dame won at the trial court level but that isn't necessarily the final word on what the law is.

How is it not settled law when it's been interpreted the same way through multiple AG's and public access counselors for multiple decades before ESPN came knocking for their muckraking article they ran a couple months ago?

The author is not a reporter, he's a practicing attorney. The Indiana AG is also a practicing attorney. So are ESPN's lawyers. They may all end up being wrong, but it is by no means obvious at this stage that Notre Dame's position here is legally sound. They're entitled to it and they are entitled to act in their own self interest, whatever they believe that to be. But it would not be shocking if the end result here is a decision that states that if you exercise powers that can only be granted by a government then you're necessarily a state actor and subject to the same disclosure and oversight rules as all other state actors. In fact, I think that is a rather likely and reasonable result.

No, it wouldn't be shocking at all. But them effectively changing the intent and interpretation of the law is just that... a change. They are challenging the law's interpretation.

So I think MN's analogy is rather accurate. Notre Dame is exercising their rights as has been previously established... if that changes, they'll obviously comply.
 

Rhode Irish

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Ok, but for the sake precision, changing the law is really something that is a function of the legislature. A court decision wouldn't technically change the actual law, just the way it is applied in this specific circumstance. I get what you're saying, and you'll note that I did not say ND has done anything "wrong" and actually said the exact opposite.
 
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BGIF

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Kind of have to agree with the author here.

Who is the author? Is his identity a secret? Title of the article? Link?

Sounds like he has a personal ax to grind, "Currently, the Worldwide Leader in Sports is engaged in a lawsuit against the almighty Notre Dame Fighting Irish ..."

University of Notre Dame would not have sufficed? Had to get in the "almighty" dig?

And just today Dennis Dodd was beating the drum that ND is irrelevant.
 

ulukinatme

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Shit, Dennis Dodd has been beating that drum for at least 5 years. Notre Dame will never become irrelevant as long as writers continue to repeat that statement for hits.
 

BGIF

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Shit, Dennis Dodd has been beating that drum for at least 5 years. Notre Dame will never become irrelevant as long as writers continue to repeat that statement for hits.


Not the point Dodd like Finnbaum makes the issue personal to generate interest, "hits".

What is this author trying to generate with digs (almighty, proteecting athletes)? His lack of professionalism is apparent.
 

Rhode Irish

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Who is the author? Is his identity a secret? Title of the article? Link?

Sounds like he has a personal ax to grind, "Currently, the Worldwide Leader in Sports is engaged in a lawsuit against the almighty Notre Dame Fighting Irish ..."

University of Notre Dame would not have sufficed? Had to get in the "almighty" dig?

And just today Dennis Dodd was beating the drum that ND is irrelevant.

The author is Steve Silver, a lawyer from Philadephia. The title is "ESPN Fighting to Remove Privacy Shield From Notre Dame Police Force." I originally posted the link, but Lax removed it and posted the text instead because the article was hosted on the same platform as the article that broke the Manti/Lenay story. Also, as I clarified in the next post after Lax edited my post, my comment that I agreed with the author was only with respect to one point that he made, which I had originally singled out and quoted.
 

Irish#1

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Zoeller graduated from Purdue with his law degree from IU. It's obvious his jealousy has caused him to "state" against ND.
 

wizards8507

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Do these guys get pissed at people who don't consent to search at a police stop? The law says you don't have open the car just because someone asks. That doesn't make you a bad person, and you don't necessarily have anything to hide just because you don't want eyes in your business.
That's way different. Laws meant to protect the citizen are not the same as laws meant to protect police. NDSP is trying to have it both ways. They want to be a "private entity" and shielded from public scrutiny as a subsidiary of the private University of Notre Dame, but they also want the public policing powers to arrest and incarcerate as a chartered force.

I don't know why the author is trying to make ND out to be a bad guy here. Regardless of anyone's opinion, the Irish are on the side of the law. If the law gets changed, then the Irish will follow the changed law. It's that simple.
There's an ethical difference between malum prohibitum and malum in se. In other words, just because something is [currently] legal, doesn't make it good/okay/acceptable. Notre Dame would be well within the law to sell pornography in the bookstore, but people would still be upset if they actually DID.
 

Legacy

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Can someone post the AG's amicus brief (or a link to it) in the case that he cites prior court decisions, FOI precedents in Indiana or case law supporting his opinion?
 

wizards8507

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Can someone post the AG's amicus brief (or a link to it) in the case that he cites prior court decisions, FOI precedents in Indiana or case law supporting his opinion?
http://www.courthousenews.com/2015/08/18/notrebrief.pdf

The highlight, in my lay opinion:

The Indiana Supreme Court has held that private university police officers appointed pursuant to Indiana Code section 21-17-5-2 are state actors for constitutional purposes. In Finger v. State, 799 N.E.2d 528 (Ind. 2003), the court addressed the question as it related to Fourth Amendment limits on the conduct of a Butler University police officer. Stating that "[a] private entity is deemed a state actor when the state delegates to it a traditionally public function[,]" id. at 532, the court held that the officer was "a state actor subject to [ ] Fourth Amendment restrictions on searches and seizures," id., owing to the State's conferral of "general police powers" on private university police. Id. (quoting Ind. Code §§ 20-12-3.5-1(1) and -2 (1998) (predecessors to Ind. Code § 21-17-5-2)).

Thus, when Notre Dame police officers exercise the authority they are granted under Indiana Code section 21-17-5-4, they act under color of state law just like any other law enforcement officer in the State. Id. That these officers are appointed, employed, and paid by private universities did not factor into the Finger court's state-actor analysis in any fashion. See id. Rather, their status as state actors was entirely dependent on their exercise of state-delegated police powers. Id.; see also Evans v. Newton, 382 U.S. 296, 299 (1966) ("[W]hen private individuals or groups are endowed by the state with powers or functions governmental in nature, they become agencies or instrumentalities of the state. . . .").
 
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RDU Irish

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AG making a claim is not the same as having legal precedence on his side in said claim.

Also, what of the rights of a private property? Does a private property owner not have the right to refuse access? Don't want to empty your pockets? Fine, get out. Public universities are a completely different animal and I don't get how folks are so lazy to lump them in together.

LAX is right, end game is NDPD sits in a back room while private security deals with stuff and only calls on them when needed. Access to reporters for gossip is different than access to state and federal agencies.

Lizzy Seeburg reference is a cheap shot on an issue that has been addressed and resolved as NOT an abuse of power but just an overall crappy situation.
 

wizards8507

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Also, what of the rights of a private property? Does a private property owner not have the right to refuse access? Don't want to empty your pockets? Fine, get out. Public universities are a completely different animal and I don't get how folks are so lazy to lump them in together.
The University of Notre Dame and NDSP are not one in the same. When NDSP uses police power, they become "state actors" and cease to be private entities. Nobody, not ESPN or the Trib or anyone else, are claiming FOI access to University records. They're claiming access to NDSP records in their capacity as state actors.

Ohio State University - Public
Ohio State Campus Police - Public
University of Notre Dame - Private
Notre Dame Security Police - Public
 

irishff1014

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I know this won't be popular here but oh well. ESPN is the issue it is pretty easy don't come to south bend and we won't come to your prime time game. The same with the south bend tribute we allow you here if you want to act stupid and play its our way or the high way you too can stay off campus. There is enough prime time with Nbc and other channels the we don't need ABC. The media doesn't care about Notre Dame they care about the name of the side of the van or on top of the paper and hits on their Internet site.
 

no.1IrishFan

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I know this won't be popular here but oh well. ESPN is the issue it is pretty easy don't come to south bend and we won't come to your prime time game. The same with the south bend tribute we allow you here if you want to act stupid and play its our way or the high way you too can stay off campus. There is enough prime time with Nbc and other channels the we don't need ABC. The media doesn't care about Notre Dame they care about the name of the side of the van or on top of the paper and hits on their Internet site.

He's just kidding, Dshans.
 

BeauBenken

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Just a quick question, but what constitutes police powers?

Anyone can make an arrest, no?
 

Rhode Irish

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Also, what of the rights of a private property? Does a private property owner not have the right to refuse access? Don't want to empty your pockets? Fine, get out. Public universities are a completely different animal and I don't get how folks are so lazy to lump them in together.

The issue is not whether the University of Notre Dame is subject to FOIA-style requests, but whether the police force operating on the campus is. That force is availing itself of powers that can only be administered by the government. The police operating on Notre Dame's campus should be able to claim privacy rights as a private institution if it were to give up its police powers to investigate, detain, arrest, incarcerate, carry and discharge a firearm, etc. But as long as it wields those powers, it is a de facto state actor. (At least that is the argument, the courts will ultimately decide but I find it hard to believe they won't come out on that side.)

Keep in mind, Notre Dame is a private institution, not a sovereign nation unto itself.
 

RDU Irish

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So you bring in the NDPD when you need to detain, arrest, incarcerate, carry and discharge a firearm etc. The private security detail becomes the first line of defense in all cases as to eliminate exposure to the FOIA requests. ND will take action to keep their crap as private as possible, is there any question about that?

If the law is interpreted or extrapolated in a fashion that changes their assumptions, they will change their actions to protect themselves.
 

Rhode Irish

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So you bring in the NDPD when you need to detain, arrest, incarcerate, carry and discharge a firearm etc. The private security detail becomes the first line of defense in all cases as to eliminate exposure to the FOIA requests. ND will take action to keep their crap as private as possible, is there any question about that?

If the law is interpreted or extrapolated in a fashion that changes their assumptions, they will change their actions to protect themselves.

Right, I don't think anyone would have a problem with that, and from a public policy standpoint I think that is a fine result. The public really doesn't have an interest in goings-on that don't rise to the level of requiring a detention or arrest or use of a firearm.
 

IrishLax

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SIAP, but does anyone know what states have laws similar or dissimilar from Indiana?
 

kmoose

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Kind of have to agree with the author here.

Bullshit!

In effect, this judge essentially said that a private university’s police can operate like secret police as no reporter or citizen could ever compel access to police records or reports. The consequences of such a ruling are truly frightening considering we now know the extent that major public schools’ campus police, such as Florida, Florida State, and Penn State, will go to in order to protect athletes. Notre Dame, despite being a private Catholic institution, is no stranger to such scandals — ask Lizzy Seeberg’s family.

The only valid criticism of ND, in the Seeberg case, is that it appeared as if they were rather nonchalant about interviewing Shembo after the allegations. There was never any question of ND turning information over to the proper authorities. (Note: Despite their protestations to the contrary, the media DOES NOT constitute a "proper authority", in the midst of a criminal investigation).

A police officer is perhaps the quintessential public employee, cloaked in the authority of the state to investigate, detain, arrest, incarcerate, carry and discharge a firearm, and generally maintain the safety of the citizenry. The notion that a police department exercising these core state powers can be shielded from public scrutiny by dint of its affiliation with a private university is antithetical to the important policy interests underlying the Access to Public Records Act.

This is bullshit as well. (Disclaimer: This is my opinion, not informed analysis of the legal nuances) The State certifies the NDPD, and it's officers, to be a Law Enforcement Entity. This means that the state has deemed that they have the proper training, experience, tools, etc, to do the job of enforcing the laws, so they are thereby empowered to do so. The State of New York has deemed that I have the training, experience, etc, to properly maintain and repair equipment that uses ionized radiation (x-ray machines), and thereby has empowered me to do so, in the State of New York. Does that make me an agent of the State? Fvck no.

However, even a favorable appellate ruling might not end this legal war as Notre Dame certainly does not want police records concerning its student athletes seeing the light of day.

This statement is perhaps the most egregious one, and the most telling about the true goal of the author. Notre Dame has been INCREDIBLY open about legal issues for it's athletes. Did they bury the report on Floyd's DUI? Did they suppress the report on McAlarney's pot possession?
 

kmoose

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The issue is not whether the University of Notre Dame is subject to FOIA-style requests, but whether the police force operating on the campus is.

Not that I think it is cut and dried that they should not be subject to FOIA, but the Notre Dame Police Department is not a seperate entity from the University. They are a part of the Office of Campus Safety, and as such, they might be able to make the argument that they ARE the University.
 

wizards8507

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Not that I think it is cut and dried that they should not be subject to FOIA, but the Notre Dame Police Department is not a seperate entity from the University. They are a part of the Office of Campus Safety, and as such, they might be able to make the argument that they ARE the University.
That's certainly the argument they're making. The counter-argument is that their status as employees and/or a department of the University is irrelevant when exercising powers given to them by the state. When they're doing so, they're extensions of the state and subject to the rules and regulations thereof.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_actor
 
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