2016 Presidential Horse Race

[ACamp1900]

Agreed, so long as we pretense that with EVERY politician...

 

[BGIF]

I despise Donald Trump for his comments, because they are woefully ignorant.

The vast majority of Latino/Chicano immigrants are people willing to make gigantic sacrifices/risks in order to better their families. The idea is not that these people will make good lives for themselves... it's that their children and then their children's children will be better off for their efforts. On top of that, I personally people without papers who send a large chunk of their very small paychecks back home to family in El Salvador, Guatemala, etc. where their extended family lives daily on something like $1-$5 a person. So even someone working below minimum wage over here is making orders of magnitude more money than their families back in Central/South America and something like $100 can be literally life changing. The amount of money I make in 2 hours can be enough to provide a month of food, seeds for planting for a year, a stove, etc... literally life changing for people living on nothing.

These people are not "rapists"... and they're not "sent by Mexico." Also, USA has little to no need of "skilled" labor right now, so Trump's point defeats itself even if it was accurate at all.

"USA has little to no need of "skilled" labor right now" that's interesting as USA issues some 65,000 H-1B visas annually for people with college degrees. And there are another 20,000 slots for academic types with MS or higher. Considering the length of the visas, renewal process, backlog amounts to some 650,000 or more "skilled" labor in the country now.

Our unemployed college graduates might find jobs if they weren't already filled by those 650,000 we have little or no need of but keep admitting annually.

 

[kmoose]

Seemed pretty clear to like everyone else in the country what he meant. I don't get why you are having trouble understanding.

First it was "he said...", and that was shown to be inaccurate, so now it is "he meant..." It appears that maybe I am not the one having trouble understanding.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

First it was "he said...", and that was shown to be inaccurate, so now it is "he meant..." It appears that maybe I am not the one having trouble understanding.

But, as pointed out above (by both fact checkers and a conservative writer in the conservative WSJ), what he said (or meant) was factually inaccurate.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

"USA has little to no need of "skilled" labor right now" that's interesting as USA issues some 65,000 H-1B visas annually for people with college degrees. And there are another 20,000 slots for academic types with MS or higher. Considering the length of the visas, renewal process, backlog amounts to some 650,000 or more "skilled" labor in the country now.

Our unemployed college graduates might find jobs if they weren't already filled by those 650,000 we have little or no need of but keep admitting annually.

A member of my family's girlfriend took advantage of this program for Florida Power and light. They even paid of her school debt. She had absolutely zero experience and
bypassed several qualified individuals because FP&L got a government kick back. Its total BS.

You guys screaming that Illegals are flooding the streets to start throwing shingles on roofs need to go to Miami Florida and take a look around. Look past ocean Drive and you'll see illegal immigration at its finest. Lawn Chairs, chickens, beer cans, and a monthly check

 

[GoIrish41]

First it was "he said...", and that was shown to be inaccurate, so now it is "he meant..." It appears that maybe I am not the one having trouble understanding.

I think it is hilarious (and also a little sad and not at all surprising) that you are defending Trump. And you are doing so by questioning the precision of language that is being used to describe what he said. How about applying the same standard to the guy you are defending? "They are rapists" is a pretty definitive statement. That means all of them. It did not mean some of them. If he meant "some" he would have stated it, like when he stated "and some, I assume, are good people". Forget that he said Mexico is sending these people, which is asinine and false. You are defending what he said by trying to hold me to a standard that he did not even come close to demonstrating. It is funny because I am a dude posting on a message board and he was on a stage in front of hundreds of people (who he paid to be there, lol) and on national TV announcing his candidacy to be president of the United States. How about applying your rigid standard of precise language to his statements instead of mine? I stand by everything I said. It is not the blowhard Trump who bothers me (he has always been an obnoxious dick who boldly spews inappropriate and fabricated garbage). it is the people who defend and support him that I find the most objectionable because they are either not smart enough to know or lack the humanity to care if he is an ignorant bigot, and still support and defend him -- even if they have to attack people who are simply reacting to what he so clearly said.

 

[irishfan]

I think it is hilarious (and also a little sad and not at all surprising) that you are defending Trump. And you are doing so by questioning the precision of language that is being used to describe what he said. How about applying the same standard to the guy you are defending? "They are rapists" is a pretty definitive statement. That means means all of them. It did not mean some of them. If he meant "some" your he would have stated it, like when he stated "and some, I assume, are good people". Forget that he said Mexico is sending these people, which is asinine and false. You are defending what he said by trying to hold me to a standard that he did not even come close to demonstrating. It is funny because I am a dude posting on a message board and he was on a stage in front of hundreds of people (who he paid to be there, lol) and on national TV announcing his candidacy to be president of the United States. How about applying your rigid standard of precise language to his statements instead of mine? I stand by everything I said. It is not the blowhard Trump who bothers me (he has always been an obnoxious dick who boldly spews inappropriate and fabricated garbage). it is the people who defend and support him that I find the most objectionable because they are either not smart enough to know or lack the humanity to care if he is an ignorant bigot, and still support and defend him -- even if they have to attack people who are simply reacting to what he so clearly said.

Eh, I mean I'm not a Trump fan but I thought this quote was twisted as well. Why would he add that "some are good people" if he meant they were all rapists? Just doesn't make sense. I think he phrased it to get the most attention and phrased it in a way he could somewhat defend by adding the "good people" part.

 

[wizards8507]

Pop quiz: What percentage of illegal immigrants are in violation of the law?

Answer: 100%

 

[RDU Irish]

Since when does truth matter in politics? Trump is ginning up the fear monger machine. He doesn't need to prove crap, tin foil hattists will say "of course there is no proof, the Mexican Govt is too smart to leave proof".

Truth is marginalized by the non-politicians b/c they aren't getting caught up in semantic arguments. Obama paved the way, zero substance and nothing but platitudes, no record to hold against him, nothing to pin down and hold his feet to the fire. Gin up the base and Hope and Change your way to the finish line.

Make America Great Again - pulls at the heart strings of older generations whose nostalgia tends to forget the crappy crap they actually had to deal with back in the day. He is redefining class - American versus non-American and Elite political class versus everyone else. Is it really that different than the class warfare that is scoring big points for Dems?

 

[connor_in]

Parsing Clinton: Deflection, Deception, and Untruths - NationalJournal.com

By Ron Fournier

 

[wizards8507]

By Ron Fournier

Rush is going to love this...

 

[Wild Bill]

You and I are usually lock step in everything, but this time we are not.

I have read studies/polling figures that suggest the general public is leaning more left than 20 years ago. Makes sense considering the views held by many now on Gay marriage and weed. During that time both republicans and democrats have become more "liberal or conservative" since that time. However, that isn't the whole story.

For the last 20 years, the average Democrat has slowly, and steadily, moved left. Conservatives, for the most part, stayed pretty consistent for the first 10 years and then has moved right quickly over the last 10 years. So what took the Dem's 20 years to do, the R's took 10.

Keeping that in mind, consider the notion that the right has put up candidates recently who they perceived were the most moderate. But they were moderate only when compared to the individuals that have pushed the party right at an accelerating pace. Now compare that to the general population, who has slowly moved left, the republican party looks more and more estranged. Meanwhile, the Democrats put up someone left of center for their own party, who appears to be ultra left to the average republican. To the general public, the Dem candidate appears to be somewhat liberal, but to the average republican, looks damn near socialist. It really is all about perception and where you stand on the political spectrum.

My biggest complaint, as what Cuban said, is that the R's focus far too much time and effort on social policies, the exact policies that mainstream America are moving slowly left. They don't need to fight that battle. Instead, focus time and effort on policies that will promote the notion of small government while still tackling the issues like immigration in a sensible way that will appeal to the average voter. Unfortunately, the base of the party is moving farther right, which propels this notion to "fix" the social issues back to their comfort zone. Problem is, their comfort zone is no longer the comfort zone of the average citizen.

It's difficult for me to put it in perspective going 20 years back given my age (and lack of research on the topic). Even if we assume Cuban is looking at this as you are, through a historical perspective (and I doubt he is), one would assume the GOP has been nominating the most radical candidate they can find. That's simply false.

I do agree, the GOP should knock it off with the social policy nonsense and focus on small government/economy. Here's the rub - how do you package and deliver the message to voters who are financially illiterate? I'm not sure it's possible.

A member of my family's girlfriend took advantage of this program for Florida Power and light. They even paid of her school debt. She had absolutely zero experience and
bypassed several qualified individuals because FP&L got a government kick back. Its total BS.

You guys screaming that Illegals are flooding the streets to start throwing shingles on roofs need to go to Miami Florida and take a look around. Look past ocean Drive and you'll see illegal immigration at its finest. Lawn Chairs, chickens, beer cans, and a monthly check

If I had a dollar for every immigrant my mother took to the local social security office...

 

[RDU Irish]

When you look at the Republican primaries - there is so much more focus on social issues than fiscal issues it makes me sick. The social issues are not framed in a perspective of personal liberty either.

Fair points that economic illiteracy and I would add the nuance of "social conservative" versus "personal liberties" make for Republicans to be pretty far away from main stream desires.

Can anyone tell me what areas of government any of the candidates on either side actually want to REDUCE spending on or eliminate?

 

[GoIrish41]

Eh, I mean I'm not a Trump fan but I thought this quote was twisted as well. Why would he add that "some are good people" if he meant they were all rapists? Just doesn't make sense. I think he phrased it to get the most attention and phrased it in a way he could somewhat defend by adding the "good people" part.

Are you expecting anything Trump says to make sense? As to the bolded, that is my point. He added that bit to try to take the edge off of clearly controversial statements that even he knew were over the top. Yet there are lots of people who still defend the comments in their entirety. While it would have been better if he did not say this idiocy in the first place, it is what everyone expects from Trump. The people who support him are the ones who blow my mind. I am amazed that he is still way out ahead. One would think that can't last much longer, and I will be glad to see his supporters crawl back under the rock that they came from when this idiocy finally fades away so political discussion can return to real issues instead of defenses of what is clearly hate speech.

 

[GoIrish41]

Pop quiz: What percentage of illegal immigrants are in violation of the law?

Answer: 100%

That is a logical argument. Maybe Trump should have pointed out that violation of law instead of trying to say they were rapists.

 

[wizards8507]

That is a logical argument. Maybe Trump should have pointed out that violation of law instead of trying to say they were rapists.

Some of them are. I don't care if it's 0.00000001%. One is too many.

 

[RDU Irish]

That is a logical argument. Maybe Trump should have pointed out that violation of law instead of trying to say they were rapists.

More fun and impactful to sensationalize things! Sheesh, you will never have a career in television.

I will give him credit for stoking immigration debate, it is a chronic issue that is NEVER dealt with and him calling the out the hypocrisy of all stripes of politicians on the issue is priceless.

 

[wizards8507]

I will give him credit for stoking immigration debate, it is a chronic issue that is NEVER dealt with and him calling the out the hypocrisy of all stripes of politicians on the issue is priceless.

Therein lies the value of Trump as a candidate. I pray to God he doesn't win the nomination, but it's fantastic watching him tell the Republicans, Democrats, and the Media to cut the bullshit.

 

[GoIrish41]

When you look at the Republican primaries - there is so much more focus on social issues than fiscal issues it makes me sick. The social issues are not framed in a perspective of personal liberty either.

Fair points that economic illiteracy and I would add the nuance of "social conservative" versus "personal liberties" make for Republicans to be pretty far away from main stream desires.

Can anyone tell me what areas of government any of the candidates on either side actually want to REDUCE spending on or eliminate?

Bernie wants to reduce corporate welfare and military spending -- two of the most costly areas of government spending. He also wants to eliminate tax breaks on the mega rich (I know, not austerity) to decrease the tax burden on average working families and to make college affordable to everyone.

 

[wizards8507]

Bernie wants to reduce corporate welfare and military spending -- two of the most costly areas of government spending.

Yes, but cutting the latter can get you killed.

He also wants to eliminate tax breaks on the mega rich (I know, not austerity)

I always love this. Framing the argument as if tax breaks are somehow giving money away, when in reality a tax break is just letting someone keep more of the money that was theirs in the first place.

to decrease the tax burden on average working families

All the taxing in the world won't do a damn thing without entitlement reform.

and to make college affordable to everyone.

Sanders is an economic illiterate, and his plans to make college affordable to everyone will actually send education costs through the roof. Student loans and grants make college more expensive, not less. We've been through this before. When the government says "we'll subsidize the purchase of a product," that product gets more expensive.

 

[RDU Irish]

I consider raising taxes an increase in government.

I believe lower Corporate tax rates (with zero loopholes/subsidies/whatever) is the best way to compete in a global economy and the gains from payroll taxes and income taxes more than offset the corporate taxes.

I love the public colleges paying $2 million in speaking fees to HRC since February 2013. One example was $275,000 for a 30 minute chat with 6000 at U of Buffalo. That is about $50 per person and an article pointed out enough to provide a free ride to 42 students for one year. So forgive me if I think the country club attitude of colleges leaves a little bit of room to cut costs to increase affordability without soaking more dollars from taxpayers.

 

[IrishLax]

Some of them are. I don't care if it's 0.00000001%. One is too many.

So your premise here is what exactly? If undocumented workers are a vital cog in our economy, but a single one of them is a "rapist," that me means we should do.... what?

 

[GoIrish41]

Yes, but cutting the latter can get you killed.


I always love this. Framing the argument as if tax breaks are somehow giving money away, when in reality a tax break is just letting someone keep more of the money that was theirs in the first place.


All the taxing in the world won't do a damn thing without entitlement reform.


Sanders is an economic illiterate, and his plans to make college affordable to everyone will actually send education costs through the roof. Student loans and grants make college more expensive, not less. We've been through this before. When the government says "we'll subsidize the purchase of a product," that product gets more expensive.

Getting involved in every conflict around the world is what gets people killed. Military spending is the mechanism that makes it possible.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

Therein lies the value of Trump as a candidate. I pray to God he doesn't win the nomination, but it's fantastic watching him tell the Republicans, Democrats, and the Media to cut the bullshit.

By proposing what? He's tapping into an id based on misinformation.

 

[ACamp1900]

On immigration I have stood firm on this for years... which candidate will deport my wife??? That's the guy that gets my vote.

 

[RDU Irish]

Anyone present an immigration plan that includes ending the War on Drugs? Step 1 - legalize/de-criminalize drugs. Step 2 - pardon all marijuana related offenses. Step 3 - collect a ton of taxes. Seems like that would solve about 80% of the crime problem.

Forget "path to citizenship", just do an endless supply of visas to get people out of the shadows. You won't be a citizen but you can hang out and pay taxes, or even collect a reduced level of welfare benefits.

How about death sentences to non-citizen/illegal violent criminals. Bar fight? Roll out the gallows. Bet that would make hanging in the USA a bit less enticing for nefarious characters here with out any papers.

 

[wizards8507]

So your premise here is what exactly? If undocumented workers are a vital cog in our economy, but a single one of them is a "rapist," that me means we should do.... what?

Shut down the flow of illegal immigration as completely as possible. Document the undocumented workers. Crack down hard on companies the employ undocumented workers. Immediately deport any and all violent offenders to their country of origin.

Forget "path to citizenship", just do an endless supply of visas to get people out of the shadows. You won't be a citizen but you can hang out and pay taxes, or even collect a reduced level of welfare benefits.

No welfare benefits. That creates incentive for MORE illegal immigrants, and not the ones we want to be importing. We want folks who are coming to work, not folks who are coming to get on SNAP.

 

[ACamp1900]

No welfare benefits. That creates incentive for MORE illegal immigrants, and not the ones we want to be importing. We want folks who are coming to work, not folks who are coming to get on SNAP.

I totally agree with this....

 

[jerboski]

On immigration I have stood firm on this for years... which candidate will deport my wife??? That's the guy that gets my vote.

Lol this has me cracking up

 

[GoIrish41]

On immigration I have stood firm on this for years... which candidate will deport my wife??? That's the guy that gets my vote.

Lol