A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Corry]

Prediction: Sansa will be Lady Stoneheart.

Wow

 

[Emcee77]

Too much. Just too much for me. I get what they are doing, they've been trying to make a point about fanaticism all season, and that's fine, but still, Shireen's death was too much. I won't judge them from a narrative perspective till I see where they are going with it, but just the horror of that scene kind of ruined my night.

The effects in the last scene were noticeably cheesier than last week. Some aspects of it were good, but still, step it up a bit, guys.

What was the point of the Dorne storyline. I've reserved judgment all season, but unless something big that I'm not foreseeing happens in the finale, I'll have to conclude that this season would have been better off without it.

 

[ClausentoTate]

If people think this week caused a stir, wait until Jon gets stabbed at the end of the season. The internet will break.

Unless they change that for some reason...

 

[gkIrish]

First major spoiler? How about:

- Lady Stoneheart is basically irrelevant
- Night's King is the captain of the Others
- Robert's bastards are basically irrelevant
- Valyrian steel can kill white walkers
- Tyrion doesn't have greyscale
- R + L = J confirmed

Other than R + L = J, which still hasn't actually been confirmed, I wouldn't consider any of those "major" spoilers. I guess what I meant by "major" is whether a prominent character lives/dies or something equally significant.

Lady Stoneheart is just a departure from the books--she will still have a role in them.

 

[gkIrish]

Too much. Just too much for me. I get what they are doing, they've been trying to make a point about fanaticism all season, and that's fine, but still, Shireen's death was too much. I won't judge them from a narrative perspective till I see where they are going with it, but just the horror of that scene kind of ruined my night.

The effects in the last scene were noticeably cheesier than last week. Some aspects of it were good, but still, step it up a bit, guys.

What was the point of the Dorne storyline. I've reserved judgment all season, but unless something big that I'm not foreseeing happens in the finale, I'll have to conclude that this season would have been better off without it.[/QUOTE]

Yeah they really botched all the Dorne stuff other than Oberyn's scenes. I remember Arianne Martell's story being one of my favorites in the books.

I guess they just wanted to keep Bronn and Jaime relevant, which I appreciate since they are great characters, but it just didn't work. And Jaime's maiming does not translate too well to television IMO.

 

[Emcee77]

Other than R + L = J, which still hasn't actually been confirmed, I wouldn't consider any of those "major" spoilers. I guess what I meant by "major" is whether a prominent character lives/dies or something equally significant.

Lady Stoneheart is just a departure from the books--she will still have a role in them.

I agree. Not troubled by any of those things.

Yeah they really botched all the Dorne stuff other than Oberyn's scenes. I remember Arianne Martell's story being one of my favorites in the books.

I guess they just wanted to keep Bronn and Jaime relevant, which I appreciate since they are great characters, but it just didn't work. And Jaime's maiming does not translate too well to television IMO.

Yeah, I'm sure that's it, and I agree--it made sense to try it just to keep Bronn and Jamie doing something, but it just didn't work. Always felt like a sideshow.

 

[IrishinTN]

Good call. I'd rank him more likely than anyone but Brienne or Ramsay.

Personally I see Ramsay killing Stannis and then Brienne killing Ramsay at some point after that. Of course we'll have to sprinkle in a few more child rapes in between.

Really tired of that piece and burning Shireen was almost too much. I had to turn away. And if they wanted to suggest child rape as a way for Arya to get close enough to kill Meryn, they should have just pulled her in last night since she was already there, any way, and had her do it last night. Do we actually need more reason to hate Meryn Trant?

 

[Huntr]

Anyone know if Pixomondo did the CG for last night's ep? They've done the dragons previously, so I'm wondering if they're to blame for what appeared to be Neverending Story 3. Based on previous interviews, I think they did, just looking to confirm.

 

[wizards8507]

Anyone know if Pixomondo did the CG for last night's ep? They've done the dragons previously, so I'm wondering if they're to blame for what appeared to be Neverending Story 3. Based on previous interviews, I think they did, just looking to confirm.

The dragon itself looked pretty legit. It was the sky that was the problem. Not sure how that all works with the CGI, but the Drogon figure itself looked awesome.

 

[Emcee77]

The dragon itself looked pretty legit. It was the sky that was the problem. Not sure how that all works with the CGI, but the Drogon figure itself looked awesome.

I agree. I also had a problem with the flame scenes. It looked at times like Harpies were just standing there waiting for the dragon to burn them. Just a little sloppy.

 

[wizards8507]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Crackpot theory: When Benioff and Weiss had Martin map out the end of the series beyond where the books are, he told them all kinds of BS.</p>— ☕netw3rk (@netw3rk) <a href="https://twitter.com/netw3rk/status/607781415166472192">June 8, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Corry]

SO is Arya lied to Jaquen. Does he know its a lie, or is just getting really good at playing the game of faces?

 

[Corry]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Crackpot theory: When Benioff and Weiss had Martin map out the end of the series beyond where the books are, he told them all kinds of BS.</p>— ☕netw3rk (@netw3rk) <a href="https://twitter.com/netw3rk/status/607781415166472192">June 8, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That would be crazy, but I just don't see it. I'm sure he had to map out the ending before the show started. He had no reason to not trust them then. Now looking back I'm sure he wished he'd done some of that.

 

[IrishLion]

SO is Arya lied to Jaquen. Does he know its a lie, or is just getting really good at playing the game of faces?

I was wondering this myself.

My gut feeling is that Jaqen knows, but is letting her role with it. Part of "buying-in" to the Faceless Men is letting go of who you were, but I think Jaqen knows that Arya is fueled by her revenge-induced-rage and determination, and for some reason he is cool with it.

Whether it's because he sees greatness in her despite her flaws (ala Qui-Gon Jinn and Anakin Skywalker) or because he simply still feels like he owes her, I don't know. Maybe he has ulterior motives involving the over-arching plot, and is looking past Arya's lies to continue using her.

 

[GoIrish41]

SO is Arya lied to Jaquen. Does he know its a lie, or is just getting really good at playing the game of faces?

I had the same thought.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I'll sign onto the criticism that many here have already articulated. The problem is not so much that Mel sacrificed Shireen; book readers have known that was more likely than not for some time now. Nor even that Stannis might have some knowledge of it; as Benioff and Weis said in their post S5E9 explication, Stannis is a rigid man, and if it was framed as "Allow me to sacrifice your daughter or your entire army will freeze to death and the world will end", I could see a conflicted Stannis holed up in his tent while it happened.

But Benioff and Weis chose to do it in a manner that made Stannis completely unsympathetic. What father could calmly have a coded talk with his daughter about such a thing, and then not only allow it to happen, but to watch, emotionless, while someone immolates her and she cries to him for help? That was the most utterly depraved spectacle I've ever seen on TV, let alone GoT, which is saying a lot considering some of the excesses Benioff and Weis have indulged thus far.

GRRM's Stannis is a very sympathetic character, to which his popularity attests. But Benioff and Weis ruined their Stannis by making him do something appallingly evil; and why? Because it provided a "good" story arc of a Stannis introduced to us by burning men on the beach of Dragonstone who ends up burning his own daughter? That's not good writing.

And now people are understandably rooting for him to die soon and horribly. Which, from the perspective of the books, would be very anticlimactic. The odds of Stannis getting a happy ending are not good, but he's been much too pivotal to GRRM's major plotlines to simply die in an unsuccessful siege of Winterfell. He's either going to end up really bad, or he's going to be a major player in the coming showdown between Dany and the Others.

This whole development has highlighted the major flaw with the HBO series. As Benioff and Weis have converted the books to the small screen, they've flattened a complex and nuanced fantasy epic in countless ways. So while GRRM has the space necessary to break Stannis in his own time, HBO has to speed it up and spell it out as bluntly as possible. Very frustrating.

 

[wizards8507]

I'll sign onto the criticism that many here have already articulated. The problem is not so much that Mel sacrificed Shireen; book readers have known that was more likely than not for some time now. Nor even that Stannis might have some knowledge of it; as Benioff and Weis said in their post S5E9 explication, Stannis is a rigid man, and if it was framed as "Allow me to sacrifice your daughter or your entire army will freeze to death and the world will end", I could see a conflicted Stannis holed up in his tent while it happened.

But Benioff and Weis chose to do it in a manner that made Stannis completely unsympathetic. What father could calmly have a coded talk with his daughter about such a thing, and then not only allow it to happen, but to watch, emotionless, while someone immolates her and she cries to him for help? That was the most utterly depraved spectacle I've ever seen on TV, let alone GoT, which is saying a lot considering some of the excesses Benioff and Weis have indulged thus far.

GRRM's Stannis is a very sympathetic character, to which his popularity attests. But Benioff and Weis ruined their Stannis by making him do something appallingly evil; and why? Because it provided a "good" story arc of a Stannis introduced to us by burning men on the beach of Dragonstone who ends up burning his own daughter? That's not good writing.

And now people are understandably rooting for him to die soon and horribly. Which, from the perspective of the books, would be very anticlimactic. The odds of Stannis getting a happy ending are not good, but he's been much too pivotal to GRRM's major plotlines to simply die in an unsuccessful siege of Winterfell. He's either going to end up really bad, or he's going to be a major player in the coming showdown between Dany and the Others.

This whole development has highlighted the major flaw with the HBO series. As Benioff and Weis have converted the books to the small screen, they've flattened a complex and nuanced fantasy epic in countless ways. So while GRRM has the space necessary to break Stannis in his own time, HBO has to speed it up and spell it out as bluntly as possible. Very frustrating.

The one small hope I have for show-Stannis sticking around and having a role to play in the endgame is the conversation he had with Sam in the library of Castle Black. His line about how "we have dragonglass on Dragonstone" reeked of "Previously on Game of Thones..." flashback material.

 

[Grahambo]

The flaw is attempting to turn something so complex and turn it into 10 different 45 minute episodes, once a year while trying to keep it as simple as possible for the non-book readers. So it does a disservice to the book readers but really, it fits with TV production.

 

[wizards8507]

Anybody else see this blog post by GRRM?

Not A Blog - More Signed Books

"For all of you who are enjoying OUTLANDER, the marvelous adaptation of Diana Gabaldon's time travel novels that just finished its first season on STARZ... well, the show is terrific, but the books are even better (as is so often the case), and we have AUTOGRAPHED COPIES of the whole Outlander series and the 'Lord John' spinoff books as well available via mail order from the Jean Cocteau Bookshop."

Emphasis mine.

 

[IrishLax]

I'll sign onto the criticism that many here have already articulated. The problem is not so much that Mel sacrificed Shireen; book readers have known that was more likely than not for some time now. Nor even that Stannis might have some knowledge of it; as Benioff and Weis said in their post S5E9 explication, Stannis is a rigid man, and if it was framed as "Allow me to sacrifice your daughter or your entire army will freeze to death and the world will end", I could see a conflicted Stannis holed up in his tent while it happened.

But Benioff and Weis chose to do it in a manner that made Stannis completely unsympathetic. What father could calmly have a coded talk with his daughter about such a thing, and then not only allow it to happen, but to watch, emotionless, while someone immolates her and she cries to him for help? That was the most utterly depraved spectacle I've ever seen on TV, let alone GoT, which is saying a lot considering some of the excesses Benioff and Weis have indulged thus far.

GRRM's Stannis is a very sympathetic character, to which his popularity attests. But Benioff and Weis ruined their Stannis by making him do something appallingly evil; and why? Because it provided a "good" story arc of a Stannis introduced to us by burning men on the beach of Dragonstone who ends up burning his own daughter? That's not good writing.

And now people are understandably rooting for him to die soon and horribly. Which, from the perspective of the books, would be very anticlimactic. The odds of Stannis getting a happy ending are not good, but he's been much too pivotal to GRRM's major plotlines to simply die in an unsuccessful siege of Winterfell. He's either going to end up really bad, or he's going to be a major player in the coming showdown between Dany and the Others.

This whole development has highlighted the major flaw with the HBO series. As Benioff and Weis have converted the books to the small screen, they've flattened a complex and nuanced fantasy epic in countless ways. So while GRRM has the space necessary to break Stannis in his own time, HBO has to speed it up and spell it out as bluntly as possible. Very frustrating.

The worst part, like you said, is that they EASILY could've gone with a modified version of that scene that would've been 100x more true to character as we know him.

While she is screaming for her dad while Mel goes through the preparations cut to Stannis in a tent with his head bowed, eyes closed (maybe praying?) but clearly in emotional agony while her cries for echo in the background... and then cut back to the scene at the pyre. Have Selyse show her face and Shireen starts pleading to her instead but she's ice cold (like the fanatical nut job she is in the books sacrificing her own family without remorse... true to character) and then Mel burns her at the stake.

After the scene is concluded have Mel go visit him in the tent and tell him it's done... have an emotional outburst of some sort from Stannis (anger? depression? sadness?) and then Mel tells him it's all for the greater good and then Stannis threatens something awful on her if it doesn't literally save the world.

Can everyone agree that would be superior on numerous levels? And I just came up with that in 2 minutes... a talented, professional writer should be able to do much better...

 

[IrishLax]

Also, so much for dragonscales being virtually impenetrable.

 

[wizards8507]

Also, so much for dragonscales being virtually impenetrable.

Or greyscale being completely contagious.

ETA: Comment posted on A Forum of Ice and Fire:

I think after every scene transition there should be an intercut of Jon doing something for 5 seconds with an Olly reaction shock as he sharpens a knife in the shadows. Because, subtle.

 

[woolybug25]

 

[IrishLion]

This is literally how I feel sometimes.

I get more and more mad as the show continues to ruin characters with terrible changes from the books, and then I realize that, in my mind, I'm pouting like a little girl.

 

[wizards8507]

I get more and more mad as the show continues to ruin characters with terrible changes from the books, and then I realize that, in my mind, I'm pouting like a little girl.

That's not the problem at all. Everyone here has come to terms with that. The plot had to be culled, we get it. Eliminate Strong Belwas, fine. Send Jamie to Dorne, fine. The problem with what they're doing to these characters is that many of their actions are 100% the opposite of that character's established personality and motivations, even exclusively within the context of the show. Stannis is not a religious fanatic and he loves his daughter. Those facts are established both in the books and in the show.

Ramsay causes Stannis to burn his daughter alive by burning some supplies? A horse burns as if it's soaked in kerosene even though it's in the middle of a blizzard? The Dornish go from utter hatred of the Lannisters for their slaughter of Elia Martell to "nah, bro, we're cool with your twincest because sex... you do you"? Tyrion gets to Slaver's Bay via Valyria as a stowaway faster than Mace Tyrell can reach Braavos with the authority of the Crown and the resources of Highgarden?

 

[woolybug25]

This is literally how I feel sometimes.

I get more and more mad as the show continues to ruin characters with terrible changes from the books, and then I realize that, in my mind, I'm pouting like a little girl.

I didn't read the books, so you guys all seem like this to me. lol

I think it's a great show and sometimes I wish I wouldn't have ever wandered into this thread. I know that its clearly labeled as a "spoiler" thread, but the other thread is usually dead and all of you guys post in this one. So I follow the thread, listen to the constant drone of "why can't it be like the books" and live with the spoilers.

This thread is actually a net negative in my life... but I simply cannot quit it...

 

[IrishLion]

That's not the problem at all.

The problem isn't the show ruining characters from the books with terrible changes?

I agree with your sentiments, so IDK why you quoted me haha.

 

[wizards8507]

The problem isn't the show ruining characters from the books with terrible changes?

That's a problem but not, IMO, the biggest one. I think it's much worse that D&D can't even keep their story straight within their own show.

 

[Huntr]

The flaw is attempting to turn something so complex and turn it into 10 different 45 minute episodes, once a year while trying to keep it as simple as possible for the non-book readers. So it does a disservice to the book readers but really, it fits with TV production.

I don't agree at all. I think they've done a pretty good job, overall, and as I've said before, I kind of prefer the show to the books for telling the story. My bitch isn't that stuff changed from books to show, but that it changed a character's, well, character, 180 degrees.

Just no way he sacs his only heir to the iron throne. It was stupid. Even if Martin makes it happen that way in the next book, (Stannis sacs Shireen for assault on Winterfell, Mel burns Stannis to res Jon,) it's dumb and completely out of character for Stannis.

 

[IrishLax]

It just bothers me that they don't seem to get it.

Either that, or they know so much more than we do that they're making wholesale changes because they DO get it.

Like maybe Stannis gets beaten back by the Boltons and then in desperation he does make the decision to sacrifice Shireen. Maybe Doran... true to book... is just pretending to be cool/calm/collected and is about to pull some serious shit (i.e. getting people inside King's Landing to then assassinate Tommen and put Myrcella/Tristan on the throne).

Maybe they really, really get it... but sometimes the decisions on screen are just total headscratchers. Never more so than last night.