A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

wizards8507

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What does everyone read into "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell"? Anything metaphysical, or just foreshadowing of Theon's betrayal?

Similarly, I think it's all but certain that the Eyrie will fall. They've said "the Eyrie is impregnable" far too many times.

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gkIrish

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I think the second-to-last episode will end with Jon being stabbed to "death." The final episode will feature Cersei's walk of shame and Daenarys riding the dragon. I'd bet quite a bit of money the dragon part happens because they love to end seasons with her.
 

IrishinTN

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With all the intricate foreshadowing and prophesies he's already written into the story, I don't think he has nearly the latitude to change his original ending as you're implying here.



His struggle to finish doesn't necessarily mean he'll have to change his ending. GRRM is fond of quoting Tolkein and saying that, "The tale grew in the telling." It's grown so large and complex that it's become difficult to keep track of all the various plot lines; he's explicitly blamed the "Mereenese Knot" (his difficulty in figuring out how to extricate Dany from Essos and bring her back to Westeros) for much of the delay in recent years. But that doesn't mean his ending has or will change.

But at the same time the prophecies are so complex with enough vague details to justify pretty much any ending he wants.

I think he got bored writing this some time ago...probably about the time he got famous.
 

wizards8507

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I think he got bored writing this some time ago...probably about the time he got famous.
Maybe. I'm holding out hope that the delay with Winds is that he's writing a ton of material rather than he's writing at a snail's pace.
 

IrishinSyria

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I think the show is doing a great job now of destroying that Mereenese Knot, and shows us explicitly (which we already basically knew was coming) that Tyrion will be her key to getting to Westeros.

As an adviser, a historian, and the best tactician in the books (aside from his deceased father and mayyyyyyybe Rob Stark), Tyrion is more than well-rounded and clever enough to rally Westerosi banners to her cause, and the show has driven past the books in opening that possibility.

Honestly, I thought Tyrion's scene showed how parochial he was, not her (and was meant to do it). There were a lot of parallels with it and the scene between the high sparrow and Olenna Tyrell in the high sept the week before. Olenna and Tyrion are masters of the Game of Thrones, but their stuck in a world where the great houses are the centers of power. Now that Ice and Fire are coming, it's not clear to me that their cleverness is really going to do them any good moving forward, at least if they can't shift their point of view. (Couldn't embed either).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiMyExHhAC4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvaivh6RAzU
 
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IrishLion

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Honestly, I thought Tyrion's scene showed how parochial he was, not her (and was meant to do it). There were a lot of parallels with it and the scene between the high sparrow and Olenna Tyrell in the high sept the week before. Olenna and Tyrion are masters of the Game of Thrones, but their stuck in a world where the great houses are the centers of power. Now that Ice and Fire are coming, it's not clear to me that their cleverness is really going to do them any good moving forward, at least if they can't shift their point of view.

Ah but I disagree, because the reason Tyrion has survived as long as he has, despite everyone's best efforts to destroy him (both literally and politically), is because he is NOT parochial like everyone else from the major houses. He recognized early on that his name wasn't enough, and so made his way through being Hand of the King by having a wide understanding of everything around him.

He knows how and when to use his name to effect, but also when to circumvent his own name. He knows how to relate to the major players, as well as the little people. He knows how to deal with enemies on the outside while holding off enemies from within. We have seen all of these things, and so we see just how widely Tyrion is able to view everything.

Of course, he does have a track record of stubbornness and ignoring his own best judgement when it comes to personal matters, but in terms of dealing-with/defeating/protecting/counseling the masses as an unsung hero, he knows what he's doing, which is why being with Danaerys makes him much more dangerous.

I'll have to watch the scene again, though. Perhaps the show is trying to make him vulnerable in order to exaggerate how much he needs Danaerys, just as we know how much she needs him. Because regardless of his wide/narrow view on things, it is true that they need each other.
 

IrishinSyria

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Yeah, I edited in the links to both scenes... watch em again. They both follow the same general theme, with the show's cleverest and most loved characters claiming that they know exactly what the newcomer is up to, only to have the newcomer say something at the end of the scene that's completely unexpected and shuts down the rest of the conversation.

I think both Tyrion and the Queen of Thorns have some fight left in them, but the show's making it clear that they were masters of the old game. The Game of Thrones is over. The Song of Ice and Fire has begun.
 

IrishLion

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Yeah, I edited in the links to both scenes... watch em again. They both follow the same general theme, with the show's cleverest and most loved characters claiming that they know exactly what the newcomer is up to, only to have the newcomer say something at the end of the scene that's completely unexpected and shuts down the rest of the conversation.

I think both Tyrion and the Queen of Thorns have some fight left in them, but the show's making it clear that they were masters of the old game. The Game of Thrones is over. The Song of Ice and Fire has begun.

I think "Breaking the Wheel" was a hard-hitting lesson, but doesn't necessarily mean Tyrion will flounder by trying to use the "old game." I think he will adapt, as he has always done, which is the point I was trying to make in disagreeing with the idea that he is "parochial." He views things with weight on the great houses, but that doesn't make his viewpoint limited.

Perhaps I'm wrong, and the adapting landscape will pass him by. But I don't think the evidence shows that he is as limited or vulnerable as the Queen of Thorns, and so I think he will adapt and form a devastating tandem with Danaerys.

The real question is whether or not he can help her maintain control, rather than her becoming more and more unstable.
 

IrishinSyria

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Didn't mean to imply I think Tyrion's done. Just that he tried to play up his knowledge of the great houses as his great selling point to Dany, and I don't think that's going to fly.
 

wizards8507

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Didn't mean to imply I think Tyrion's done. Just that he tried to play up his knowledge of the great houses as his great selling point to Dany, and I don't think that's going to fly.
You have to know the wheel in order to break it.
 

IrishinSyria

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Re: Stannis and Tyrion, I think it's academic because they'll never meet. I would bet serious v-bucks that Stannis never makes it south of Winterfell. If he lives through the assault on Winterfell, he's going to have to turn back North and face the Army of the Dead. No way there's enough time left for him to capture Kings Landing or unify the Seven Kingdoms or anything like that. And I don't think he'll live through his battle with the dead, though I think he'll be critical in stemming the tide and giving Dany enough time to get her shit together.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I think both Tyrion and the Queen of Thorns have some fight left in them, but the show's making it clear that they were masters of the old game. The Game of Thrones is over. The Song of Ice and Fire has begun.

Disagree. Tyrion is obviously GRRM's favorite character (probably the most like the author himself, in many ways). If anyone is likely to get a happy ending, it's him.

There are definitely parallels between those two scenes, but the post-episode analysis by Benioff and Weis focused on the similarities between Dany and Tyrion (terrible fathers, hardship, desire to make things better for the common folk, etc.) Yes, the scene ended with a dramatic declaration by Dany that she's going to be the 2nd coming of Aegon the Conqueror.

But how likely is she to actually improve the lot of the Westerosi small folk if she arrives with three weapons of mass destruction and a plan to destroy the Great Houses? Dany is much more likely to end up a bad guy than Tyrion.
 

IrishinSyria

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Disagree. Tyrion is obviously GRRM's favorite character (probably the most like the author himself, in many ways). If anyone is likely to get a happy ending, it's him.

There are definitely parallels between those two scenes, but the post-episode analysis by Benioff and Weis focused on the similarities between Dany and Tyrion (terrible fathers, hardship, desire to make things better for the common folk, etc.) Yes, the scene ended with a dramatic declaration by Dany that she's going to be the 2nd coming of Aegon the Conqueror.

But how likely is she to actually improve the lot of the Westerosi small folk if she arrives with three weapons of mass destruction and a plan to destroy the Great Houses? Dany is much more likely to end up a bad guy than Tyrion.

She won't need to destroy the great houses. The Army of the dead is coming from the North and things in Kings Landing are rapidly moving towards revolution (prediction: after her walk, Cersei gets Tommen to order a massacre at the high sept, triggering a massive backlash). If the houses have been playing poker, the new game is 52 card pick-up.

To be clear, I definitely think Tyrion has a lot left to contribute. But he tried to portray himself as valuable due to his knowledge of the great houses, and that's what I think is going to have to change. The great houses are not ready for Winter.
 

IrishLax

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So I'm re-reading the end of Dance and am I the only one who missed the NFL symbolism at the end?

GRRM is a huge Giants fan -- as in, the New York NFL franchise. And Wun Wun, a giant, murders the hell out of Ser Patrek... who just happens to have Cowboys colors and a star for his sigil. Hilarious. I'm assuming this was intentionally done by Martin.
 

Whiskeyjack

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GRRM is a huge Giants fan -- as in, the New York NFL franchise. And Wun Wun, a giant, murders the hell out of Ser Patrek... who just happens to have Cowboys colors and a star for his sigil. Hilarious. I'm assuming this was intentionally done by Martin.

Yes. Martin, a die-hard Giants fan, lost a bet with his friend Patrick St. Dennis, who is a Cowboys fan:

SAGAL: Isn't it true that there's a character in your latest book that's there because you lost a bet about a football game?

MARTIN: Yes, in a way, yes, it is. That's true.

(LAUGHTER)

SAGAL: Well what happened?

MARTIN: Well there's this guy named Patrick St. Denis, who runs a fantasy website called Pat's Fantasy Hotlist. And Pat is a big Dallas Cowboys fan. So we would have a standing bet for a number of years about whether the Dallas Cowboys or the New York Giants would do better.

And I won the bet the first two years. But finally, in the third year the Cowboys finished ahead of the Giants. And what I had to do if he won the bet was to kill him horribly within the books.

(LAUGHTER)

MARTIN: So I invented a character called Ser Patrek of King's Mountain and described his heraldry as looking somewhat like the heraldry of the Dallas Cowboys with the silver star on a white field. And then I had him ripped apart by a giant.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

SAGAL: Which he found very enjoyable.

MARTIN: Yeah, he seemed to get a kick out of that.

(APPLAUSE)
 

Huntr

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Unrelated to anything posted here, but I can only take so much of r/asoiaf tin foil stupidity and non funny jokes. Then again, I feel that way about most of reddit.

I mean, there's good shit in that sub, but signal:noise just sucks.
 

ulukinatme

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Yeah there's 45 minutes left till my ban is over but Jon has me feeling like a badass so yeah.


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A belated welcome back.
 

gkIrish

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Tonight's preview says "Arya will encounter someone from her past." Am I forgetting something from the books or will this be a change? Who might it be?
 

Huntr

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Tonight's preview says "Arya will encounter someone from her past." Am I forgetting something from the books or will this be a change? Who might it be?

Meryn Trant. He's in Braavos w/Mace Tyrell.


BTW, what happens tonight? Ides of March, Dany on a Dragon or Cersei gettin nekkid in the streets?

I think Dany on Drogon, maybe Jon gets stabbed, but probably that and Cersei next week.
 
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gkIrish

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Meryn Trant. He's in Braavos w/Mace Tyrell.


BTW, what happens tonight? Ides of March, Dany on a Dragon or Cersei gettin nekkid in the streets?

I think Dany on Drogon, maybe Jon gets stabbed, but probably that and Cersei next week.

Ah that's right. Is it the second to last episode? If so I think Jon is getting stabbed. Will be watching Twitter for reactions to that.
 

Corry

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Meryn Trant. He's in Braavos w/Mace Tyrell.


BTW, what happens tonight? Ides of March, Dany on a Dragon or Cersei gettin nekkid in the streets?

I think Dany on Drogon, maybe Jon gets stabbed, but probably that and Cersei next week.

Dany on Drogon, the rest next week.
 

IrishLion

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Dany on dragon has to be tonight if they mirror "huge action penultimate episode" from the past seasons. Shit popping off at the fighting pits would fit that schedule.

If it were me, I would end episode 10 with Jon getting stabbed and the screen going black, and then a quick transition to a bright, open plain, where Dany and Drogon are chilling, and then suddenly a massive Khalasar roles up, and then Drogon looks ready to pounce, and quick cut to black again.

This would be cool because show watchers would be wondering what happened to Dany the whole episode, and then think they got a Jon Snow-is-dead cliffhanger with no answers on Dany, and then BAM they get an impactful, very brief minute-long cliffhanger involving Dany on top of the Jon Snow shocker.

#IceAndFireCliffhangers
 

wizards8507

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Dany on dragon has to be tonight if they mirror "huge action penultimate episode" from the past seasons. Shit popping off at the fighting pits would fit that schedule.
I figure Hardhome fit that bill. I expect surprise but no huge action tonight.

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wizards8507

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IMO, easily the worst episode of the entire series so far. Stannis was horseshit. The Bastard Letter completely cut. Child rape as a plot device (again). TERRIBLE CGI on Drogon's flight. Embarrassing follow-up to Hardhome, possibly the series' best.

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IrishLion

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I didn't mind it. Hate Stannis now though.

I got all jacked up when Drogon was lighting fools up. But it did look terrible when Dany was climbing onto him and again when she was flying on him.

Also interesting that her husband wasn't in on the mutiny.
 
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