A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[Emcee77]

A bit off topic, but if any of you guys are looking for some ASOIAF-like stuff to read while we wait for Winds of Winter, you might try some of this:

Seven Essential Fantasy Reads: Going to Second Base : The New Yorker

Like the author of this piece, I generally disliked fantasy, a few classics aside, because I thought it was mostly poorly written. But it turns out there's some good stuff out there.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Like the author of this piece, I generally disliked fantasy, a few classics aside, because I thought it was mostly poorly written. But it turns out there's some good stuff out there.

Most genre fiction is poorly written, and fantasy is no exception. Definitely some good reads in that link-- my IE handle comes from Gardens of the Moon.

While we're on the subject, a similar list appeared on imgur recently.

 

[Corry]

Most genre fiction is poorly written, and fantasy is no exception. Definitely some good reads in that link-- my IE handle comes from Gardens of the Moon.

While we're on the subject, a similar list appeared on imgur recently.

Damn WJ. Gardens of the Moon is a ten book series? Is it worth the investment? I normally spend an hour on my iPad in bed before I go to sleep, but I can trade that in for a book if it's worth it. So how would you rank ISOIAF on a scale of 1-10 and how would you rank GOM?

 

[Emcee77]

I read GOM last year, on Whiskey's recommendation. It was excellent. More magicky than ASOIAF, but it shares the themes of political intrigue, succession, and empire. As in ASOIAF, you don't really know who to root for much of the time. I would guess most anyone who likes ASOIAF would like it. I haven't read the other books in the series yet, but I likely will.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Damn WJ. Gardens of the Moon is a ten book series? Is it worth the investment? I normally spend an hour on my iPad in bed before I go to sleep, but I can trade that in for a book if it's worth it. So how would you rank ISOIAF on a scale of 1-10 and how would you rank GOM?

Well, as far as entertaining fiction goes, aSoIaF is my favorite series, so that gets a 10. The Malazan Book of the Fallen probably gets a 7.5. A few of the books are awesome, a couple are meh, most are solid. Erikson does a good job of undermining common fantasy tropes, and his pantheon/ magic system is pretty compelling; but I found his philosophy to be somewhat annoying (most readers don't seem to notice it, though).

If you like fantasy, and are ready to dive into a major series, you won't be disappointed. But if you're generally skeptical regarding fantasy, you should probably stay away. Martin's work is often described as "fantasy for people who don't like fantasy"; Erikson's doesn't fall into that category.

 

[IrishLion]

Most genre fiction is poorly written, and fantasy is no exception. Definitely some good reads in that link-- my IE handle comes from Gardens of the Moon.

While we're on the subject, a similar list appeared on imgur recently.

I read GOM last year, on Whiskey's recommendation. It was excellent. More magicky than ASOIAF, but it shares the themes of political intrigue, succession, and empire. As in ASOIAF, you don't really know who to root for much of the time. I would guess most anyone who likes ASOIAF would like it. I haven't read the other books in the series yet, but I likely will.

This is going to sound petty, but I got maybe a third (maybe even halfway) through Gardens of the Moon before I got turned off. Without spoilers, it was the puppet deal.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This is going to sound petty, but I got maybe a third (maybe even halfway) through Gardens of the Moon before I got turned off. Without spoilers, it was the puppet deal.

I have a buddy who couldn't get into it either simply because of the weird names Erikson gives to his characters. Gardens of the Moon seems to appeal to a much narrower audience than A Game of Thrones.

 

[Emcee77]

This is going to sound petty, but I got maybe a third (maybe even halfway) through Gardens of the Moon before I got turned off. Without spoilers, it was the puppet deal.

No, I get that. The magic in ASOIAF is on the fringes, so people who don't normally like fantasy like it, but in GOM the magic is front and center. I didn't like that aspect of it either, but the political thriller/evil empire aspect kept me interested. I'd encourage you to give it another shot ... it gets good, but the magic is a lot to swallow.

 

[IrishLion]

I have a buddy who couldn't get into it either simply because of the weird names Erikson gives to his characters. Gardens of the Moon seems to appeal to a much narrower audience than A Game of Thrones.

No, I get that. The magic in ASOIAF is on the fringes, so people who don't normally like fantasy like it, but in GOM it is front and center. I didn't like that aspect of it either, but the political-thriller aspect kept me interested.

To be fair, I also started reading it on a beech near Savannah, Georgia just after I graduated from college. I love to wind down with a book as much as anyone, but my post-graduation mental cool-down phase full of beer and terrible/delicious island food probably didn't foster the best environment for retaining Erikson's work.

I'll probably give it another try starting tonight now that it's been brought up lol.

 

[Emcee77]

To be fair, I also started reading it on a beech near Savannah, Georgia just after I graduated from college. I love to wind down with a book as much as anyone, but my post-graduation mental cool-down phase full of beer and terrible/delicious island food probably didn't foster the best environment for retaining Erikson's work.

I'll probably give it another try starting tonight now that it's been brought up lol.

Lol I get that too. It definitely took me a while to figure out what the hell was going on and how Erikson's fictive world works. GOM probably takes a greater investment of mental power and attention than most people want to put into a beach vacation book.

 

[Grahambo]

I still need to start reading the books.

 

[ND NYC]

A bit off topic, but if any of you guys are looking for some ASOIAF-like stuff to read while we wait for Winds of Winter, you might try some of this:

Seven Essential Fantasy Reads: Going to Second Base : The New Yorker

Like the author of this piece, I generally disliked fantasy, a few classics aside, because I thought it was mostly poorly written. But it turns out there's some good stuff out there.

that article is from 2009....long before GOT aired on HBO...they give GRRM an "honorable mention" for the genre alsong with some others, and no mention of asoiaf. hmmm...big miss there by the author!

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

This is relevant to what Title2114 was talking about with Arya

Maisie Williams on Arya’s killer Season 4 debut: "It’s kind of frightening" - WinterIsComing.net - News and rumors about HBO's Game of Thrones

 

[wizards8507]

This isn't on topic anymore but I finally got around to watching Episode 1 last night and I thought of another reason why I hate Daenerys. She runs around bitching about Robert "The Usurper" Baratheon and his dogs, but she has no qualms whatsoever about sacking Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen. Either "right of conquest" is legitimate or it isn't. If it is, then she's the Queen of Meereen and Tommen (or Stannis) is the King of Westeros. If it isn't, then the Targaryen conquest itself was a usurpation as was just about everything she's done in the East.

 

[Corry]

This isn't on topic anymore but I finally got around to watching Episode 1 last night and I thought of another reason why I hate Daenerys. She runs around bitching about Robert "The Usurper" Baratheon and his dogs, but she has no qualms whatsoever about sacking Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen. Either "right of conquest" is legitimate or it isn't. If it is, then she's the Queen of Meereen and Tommen (or Stannis) is the King of Westeros. If it isn't, then the Targaryen conquest itself was a usurpation as was just about everything she's done in the East.

Very good point. I liked her less in the books. But, in the show she is just so freaking hot I could really care less what she does or says. I'd drink her bath water and be happy about it.

 

[phork]

Everyone who is not of your House is a usurper.

 

[returnofthemack]

This isn't on topic anymore but I finally got around to watching Episode 1 last night and I thought of another reason why I hate Daenerys. She runs around bitching about Robert "The Usurper" Baratheon and his dogs, but she has no qualms whatsoever about sacking Astapor, Yunkai, and Meereen. Either "right of conquest" is legitimate or it isn't. If it is, then she's the Queen of Meereen and Tommen (or Stannis) is the King of Westeros. If it isn't, then the Targaryen conquest itself was a usurpation as was just about everything she's done in the East.

But you gotta remember, she's a teenager. All she's heard growing up was Viserys telling her that somebody stole their birthright. It also didn't help that assassins have been chasing Viserys and her throughout her life. And when she's sacking Astapor, Yunkai, etc., she's not doing it just to take over some cities, she's doing it to free the slaves. She was also looking for ships and an army to go back to Westeros.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I attribute Daenerys' obnoxiousness to stalled character development. Martin's arc for her is pretty clear-- from timid princess in exile to confident conqueror. But along the way, she's torn between duty (Hizdahr) and lust (Daario), mercy (freeing the slaves) and destiny (reclaiming the Iron Throne), etc.

Unfortunately for us, Martin's "Meerenese Knot" has frozen Dany in a state of vacillation for the better part of two books now; her development has stalled, which made her come across as irrational, immature and indecisive. Hopefully we're past that now she's remembered that "dragons plant no trees", but we'll see.

 

[wizards8507]

I attribute Daenerys' obnoxiousness to stalled character development. Martin's arc for her is pretty clear-- from timid princess in exile to confident conqueror. But along the way, she's torn between duty (Hizdahr) and lust (Daario), mercy (freeing the slaves) and destiny (reclaiming the Iron Throne), etc.

Unfortunately for us, Martin's "Meerenese Knot" has frozen Dany in a state of vacillation for the better part of two books now; her development has stalled, which made her come across as irrational, immature and indecisive. Hopefully we're past that now she's remembered that "dragons plant no trees", but we'll see.

I just really hope she dies. If the arc that you describe actually plays out with her conquering Westeros on the back of her dragons, the entire series will be ruined for me (a la Deathly Hallows). GRRM is in love with Dany but he's also in love with screwing up his readers' minds, so we'll see which one wins out in the end.

 

[IrishLion]

I attribute Daenerys' obnoxiousness to stalled character development. Martin's arc for her is pretty clear-- from timid princess in exile to confident conqueror. But along the way, she's torn between duty (Hizdahr) and lust (Daario), mercy (freeing the slaves) and destiny (reclaiming the Iron Throne), etc.

Unfortunately for us, Martin's "Meerenese Knot" has frozen Dany in a state of vacillation for the better part of two books now; her development has stalled, which made her come across as irrational, immature and indecisive. Hopefully we're past that now she's remembered that "dragons plant no trees", but we'll see.

I think her final part in ADwD will prove to have "broken" her a bit... she's in the wild with Drogon, and she's got a Khalasar riding up on her. I think even Martin would have to realize that it's "now or never," right? She either has to nut up and get wild with her dragons, or she has to back down. The turn of events at the end of ADwD don't leave room for her character development to keep stalling and for her to keep being a bit of everything. My money is on a ferocious Khaleesi moving forward. She might still be nice to her children, but she will put her conquest front and center finally.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I just really hope she dies. If the arc that you describe actually plays out with her conquering Westeros on the back of her dragons, the entire series will be ruined for me (a la Deathly Hallows). GRRM is in love with Dany but he's also in love with screwing up his readers' minds, so we'll see which one wins out in the end.

When I predicted that she will transform into a "confident conqueror", I didn't mean to imply that she will actually win the Iron Throne. See Lion's post above; it means she's going to put aside her childish indecisiveness on Essos and focus her attention on Westeros, where it should have been all along. The end of a ADwD strongly implies she's already turned that corner.

I once thought that Jon, Tyrion and Dany would be the "three heads of the dragon", and that Jon and Dany would hook up to reestablish the Targaryen dynasty. But that's much too predictable and clean for Martin; and, if Mirri Maz Durr's prophecy/ curse is accurate, then Dany won't be able to continue the line anyway.

I think her final part in ADwD will prove to have "broken" her a bit... she's in the wild with Drogon, and she's got a Khalasar riding up on her. I think even Martin would have to realize that it's "now or never," right? She either has to nut up and get wild with her dragons, or she has to back down. The turn of events at the end of ADwD don't leave room for her character development to keep stalling and for her to keep being a bit of everything. My money is on a ferocious Khaleesi moving forward. She might still be nice to her children, but she will put her conquest front and center finally.

Agreed. I don't see anyway for GRRM to back off her transformation now.

 

[ACamp1900]

For me, I don't even care who wins the throne anymore... Cersei, Bolton and Frey need to be disposed of brutally ... when Bolton became Ward of the North I about gave up on the series until further notice,... way too f'in depressing... I too think the Dany story line lost steam long ago... hell even before ADwD it was lost on me.

 

[gkIrish]

Anyone think a major character has yet to be introduced? By that I mean someone who hasn't even been referred to up to this point...

 

[Emcee77]

Anyone think a major character has yet to be introduced? By that I mean someone who hasn't even been referred to up to this point...

I seem to recall reading where Martin has said that all major POV characters have now been introduced. That ring a bell to anyone else?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I seem to recall reading where Martin has said that all major POV characters have now been introduced. That ring a bell to anyone else?

Yup. Martin has said there will be no new PoVs. And to be honest, he has more than he can handle already. Needs to start killing some off. TWoW will be brutal.

 

[gkIrish]

I seem to recall reading where Martin has said that all major POV characters have now been introduced. That ring a bell to anyone else?

Yup. Martin has said there will be no new PoVs. And to be honest, he has more than he can handle already. Needs to start killing some off. TWoW will be brutal.

Makes sense. I just really hope he figures out a bunch of ways to surprise us. I suppose it's my fault that I read all the fan theories but it would be cool if he did something completely original.

 

[ACamp1900]

Anyone think a major character has yet to be introduced? By that I mean someone who hasn't even been referred to up to this point...

I doubt he brings anyone totally new in, but you have to think some that have only been mentioned (Howland Reed comes to mind especially) may finally appear and possibly play very important, if not leading, roles in how the story ends.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

I doubt he brings anyone totally new in, but you have to think some that have only been mentioned (Howland Reed comes to mind especially) may finally appear and possibly play very important, if not leading, roles in how the story ends.

This seems very likely to me. Especially if R+L=J. Good point


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I doubt he brings anyone totally new in, but you have to think some that have only been mentioned (Howland Reed comes to mind especially) may finally appear and possibly play very important, if not leading, roles in how the story ends.

We may have already met Howland Reed.

 

[ACamp1900]

Yeah, I think you may have shared that with me already... we will see.