I support Phil of Duck Dynasty

[RDU Irish]

Conflating "rights" with "benefits" on a massive scale here. Boo freaking hoo, I don't get a tax break. Guess what, there is actually a marriage PENALTY for two income married folks. Should I cry to Dr. Phil over it? Should I opt to NOT get married? Plenty of people "live in sin" by choice because of the government imposed issues marriage would create. Why does the government care if I am married to the woman I am living with and why does that change my treatment as a citizen?

 

[wizards8507]

Conflating "rights" with "benefits" on a massive scale here. Boo freaking hoo, I don't get a tax break. Guess what, there is actually a marriage PENALTY for two income married folks. Should I cry to Dr. Phil over it? Should I opt to NOT get married? Plenty of people "live in sin" by choice because of the government imposed issues marriage would create. Why does the government care if I am married to the woman I am living with and why does that change my treatment as a citizen?

Lol please run for Congress.

 

[NDohio]

Good post. Everyone is a libertarian about the rights that they think people should have.

To your first point (and the previous poster), people think that not being able to create religiously-based laws limits their freedom. On the contrary, it protects them. It means that no one can do it and that all religions can continue practicing freely.

Absolutely correct.

 

[RDU Irish]

So can we all agree that adultery is OK? Or maybe we can provide legal benefits to adulterers so they don't have to wear those damn ugly scarlet letters all over town?

 

[T Town Tommy]

The activist courts, along with an overzeolous liberal media, along with a small minority of the population has tried - and been successful in part- in moving the moral compass of our country.

We have become a secular society in recent decades. And I blame that on the religious sector of our society. The religious establishment should have stepped up long ago and didn't. Plain and simple... we have moved into to Western European secular progressive society that will ultimately determine the fate of our nation.

 

[RDU Irish]

Lol please run for Congress.

No kidding. Amazing to me how people with this Libertarian view of personal freedom are run out of town as nut jobs.

 

[DillonHall]

Something's off, you two should discuss.

LOL no it's not genius

 

[wizards8507]

I miss Pat...

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I miss Pat...

Oh my gosh...this debate has been so much more civil than it would have been.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

First, they don't get thrown in jail, but they are denied rights. That's just factually accurate. A gay couple doesn't have the same rights as a straight couple.

Second, there are gay people who get fired from jobs because of it.

.....or get dragged behind trucks, or are disowned by their families, or are bullied in school, etc. The strong reaction to statements like Phil's are because it implicitly condones such actions.

 

[notredomer23]

If Pat was here it would have been locked after page 1

 

[notredomer23]

.....or get dragged behind trucks, or are disowned by their families, or are bullied in school, etc. The strong reaction to statements like Phil's are because it implicitly condones such actions.

How does Phil's statements condone any of what you listed in any way, shape, or form?

 

[NDohio]

The activist courts, along with an overzeolous liberal media, along with a small minority of the population has tried - and been successful in part- in moving the moral compass of our country.

We have become a secular society in recent decades. And I blame that on the religious sector of our society. The religious establishment should have stepped up long ago and didn't. Plain and simple... we have moved into to Western European secular progressive society that will ultimately determine the fate of our nation.

See, I disagree with this. The religious establishment is part of the problem. You have figure heads for those establishments that speak in a way that doesn't truly represent the Christian individuals. Christians, as individuals are more to blame for not stepping up and living a life in a way that reflects Christ. If more individuals did this it would entice those that do not have Christ in their life to search for that.

Anytime someone fusses at me about this country no longer being a Christian country(different debate), my response is always for them to look in the mirror and decide what is it they are doing to live their life in a way that makes people want what they have.

 

[RDU Irish]

.....or get dragged behind trucks, or are disowned by their families, or are bullied in school, etc. The strong reaction to statements like Phil's are because it implicitly condones such actions.

Ever see a kid in HS get beat up for nailing another guys girlfriend, or even just talking to her? Run out of town for adultery? Disowned because they screwed up their family by being unfaithful?

What about the BENEFIT (not right) to alimony in divorce? Seems pretty stupid to be obligated to pay a lower earning spouse indefinitely. Gay couples and "live in sin" hetero couples don't have this chain holding them back from finding greener pastures.

Crap happens, get a helmet.

 

[NDohio]

.....or get dragged behind trucks, or are disowned by their families, or are bullied in school, etc. The strong reaction to statements like Phil's are because it implicitly condones such actions.

What?

How did Phil promote any of what you just said.

 

[wizards8507]

Oh my gosh...this debate has been so much more civil than it would have been.

JughedJones was worse and was responsible for the first thread lock.

.....or get dragged behind trucks, or are disowned by their families, or are bullied in school, etc. The strong reaction to statements like Phil's are because it implicitly condones such actions.

No, it absolutely does NOT condone such actions. I don't think you actually read what he said so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.

 

[autry_denson]

LOL no it's not genius

you called his statement "spot on" in one post and then made the EXACT opposite argument in the next post. No matter what your opinion is, just please try to make your argument coherent.

 

[RDU Irish]

Ever see a girl treated poorly and disrespected because she was labeled a "slut"? Maybe keeping your sexual preferences and activity private is the most appropriate course for everyone, at all ages?

I'm sure if I wanted to I could find a story showing sexually promiscuous teenagers commit suicide at much higher rates than celibate ones.

 

[DillonHall]

you called his statement "spot on" in one post and then made the EXACT opposite argument in the next post. No matter what your opinion is, just please try to make your argument coherent.

lol

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

How does Phil's statements condone any of what you listed in any way, shape, or form?

I'm not suggesting that they think anything like that is OK to drag people behind trucks, but it does give people who do that the societal and religious justification to mistreat a group of people for their sexual preference. When society treats that group as borderline sub-human, there are people that will do such things.

As far as bullying/family acceptance issues, I don't see how they can be separated. These are directly related to a society that feels that gays are sinful/wrong/less than straight people, beliefs that still very common in this country. This isn't something that can be fixed through legislation, letting gay people get married or any of that. It only happens when society realizes that everyone deserves respect regardless if you're gay/black/muslim/etc.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm not suggesting that they think anything like that is OK to drag people behind trucks, but it does give people who do that the societal and religious justification to mistreat a group of people for their sexual preference. When society treats that group as borderline sub-human, there are people that will do such things.

As far as bullying/family acceptance issues, I don't see how they can be separated. These are directly related to a society that feels that gays are sinful/wrong/less than straight people, beliefs that still very common in this country. This isn't something that can be fixed through legislation, letting gay people get married or any of that. It only happens when society realizes that everyone deserves respect regardless if you're gay/black/muslim/etc.

"Borderline sub-human"? For real? You lose all credibility when you talk like that and it degrades the quality of the discourse.

 

[tussin]

I think you are slightly missing the boat. You don't have to condone it but you can't take their rights away. There is a big difference between having to like it and having to allow it. While the actual amount of people who are LGBT are low, the percent of the population that supports them on the national level is well past the 50% mark.

I don't think he was talking about their legal rights at all.

His point is true in regards to the moral compass. People are generally attacked publicly and in the media when they express that they don't support gay rights. Nowadays you are perceived as a bigot for simply having a different set of values and beliefs. I don't think that's right.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

"Borderline sub-human"? For real? You lose all credibility when you talk like that and it degrades the quality of the discourse.

When people on here support someone who suggest that gay people are one of the root causes of what's wrong with this country and are sinning for what they do, I think that's a fair statement. Or if you want me to put it more civilly, a group of people that are worth of contempt.

 

[phgreek]

My attempt yesterday to make the debate a little bit less emotional by moving to the abstract was completely misunderstood by those who responded. Probably my fault. Anyway, let me try to go the other direction and focus on the very specific issue at hand: cultural views of homosexuality and the consequences of those views. Some of you might have seen this opinion piece last week:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...re-the-closet-is-still-common.html?ref=sunday

The basic finding that's relevant here is that, based on google searches, the % of gay men is about the same across the country. But the % of men who self-identify as gay is much lower in the south than in, for instance, the northeast. Not a perfect study (none are), but revealing.

The point? The stakes are high. The LGBT advocates wants a society where kids aren't afraid to acknowledge that they're gay. Social conservatives want a society where their discomfort with homosexuality, or their belief that it is a sin, can be seen as valid and respected. Advocates think it's pathological that so many gay men and women are unable to come out. In truth, my guess is that a lot of social conservatives are ok with the fact that there are so many gay men who remain in the closet.

Regardless of your opinion, it's silly and superficial to argue that it's all meaningless, or that Americans just have to stop being b!tches and toughen up. When a very popular public figure makes a statement like this it has enormous ramifications for the cultural dialogue, which has implications for how kids feel about their own sexuality, what is perceived to be acceptable treatment of others, etc. Advocates are focusing on this case, and social conservatives are responding, b/c the stakes are extremely high.

"Silly"...SMH.

Even if you think Phil's opinions in GQ reach numbers...Folks in sports and entertainment are constantly giving opinions...and I think we've reached a point where they actually do little to change attitudes of people in the middle, and I'd argue that that middle ground is the LGBT sweet spot. And while one might ascribe well-thought out strategy to the LGBT response because it was the "south"...I think that's not likely true...I think they knee jerked, and hurt themselves. I think LGBT lost site of who they care about, and lost ground ...plain and simple. Now they can go on with this Phil Robertson line, for whatever reason...or pull back and re-group. I' think the latter would be wise.


editorial note...not everyone who saw the injustice in this is "social conservative".

Your strained attempt at fairness when describing the "social conservative" stance made me laugh out loud

If anything it looked like an attempt to shame folks because many who saw this as a basic issue of fairness and hypocrisy would not be considered "social conservative"...

 

[wizards8507]

When people on here support someone who suggest that gay people are one of the root causes of what's wrong with this country and are sinning for what they do, I think that's a fair statement. Or if you want me to put it more civilly, a group of people that are worth of contempt.

You obviously didn't read what he said, so there's no point in arguing with you. There was no "contempt" in what Phil Robertson said.

I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.

 

[woolybug25]

When people on here support someone who suggest that gay people are one of the root causes of what's wrong with this country and are sinning for what they do, I think that's a fair statement. Or if you want me to put it more civilly, a group of people that are worth of contempt.

Where did he specifically say that? Show me.

 

[tussin]

See, I disagree with this. The religious establishment is part of the problem. You have figure heads for those establishments that speak in a way that doesn't truly represent the Christian individuals. Christians, as individuals are more to blame for not stepping up and living a life in a way that reflects Christ. If more individuals did this it would entice those that do not have Christ in their life to search for that.

Anytime someone fusses at me about this country no longer being a Christian country(different debate), my response is always for them to look in the mirror and decide what is it they are doing to live their life in a way that makes people want what they have.

Elaborate on specific Christian figureheads who's beliefs and preachings don't truly represent the individuals. I can't think of an example although I'm not well versed in many Protestant faiths.

Also, I wouldn't consider someone a "true Christian" if they merely self-identify with a religion. There are millions of terrible people that are supposedly religious but neither practice any of the teachings of their church nor even attend mass. Those people and their actions are a reflection on themselves, not a specific religious faith.

 

[phgreek]

Without wading into the Phil Robertson debate...

I sometimes wonder if the reason isn't the big deal that "we" make out of situations like this, moreso than being hurt by the original words. Kids generally look to adults, for guidance on how to feel about certain situations. Those of you who are parents; you can probably name more than one time that something happened to your toddler child, and they just looked at you for a few minutes, before bursting into tears. Maybe if more people took the attitude of "That's wrong of him to say, but let him be an idiot. No one really cares what he thinks.", then maybe these kids would feel less stigmatized all of the time?

I haven't read beyond this point and you might get killed...but there is something to this.

 

[GoldenToTheGrave]

Where did he specifically say that? Show me.

"“Everything is blurred on what’s right and what’s wrong… Sin becomes fine. Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there."

Wooly, if I suggested that what you do is sinful and one of the big things that's wrong with this country, would you think I was treating you with respect?

 

[wizards8507]

Wooly, if I suggested that what you do is sinful and one of the big things that's wrong with this country, would you think I was treating you with respect?

Yes. I believe pornography is sinful but I will respect you regardless of whether you watch it.

Also, there's a HUGE leap you're making from "respect" to "encouraging bullies to kick the shit out of a gay kid behind the dumpster."