ND Oversold on Kelly?

[kmoose]

This. People cite attrition as an excuse on BK's behalf as if he has nothing to with the attrition himself. "Recruiting" includes "retaining" and we've been pretty good at the former but mediocre to poor at the latter. You can't say "BK is great... except for poor depth and poor retainage of talent," because those things are part of what would be necessary to MAKE him great.

OK. But here is the problem...........

Name the players that Kelly could have kept, but let get away?

 

[dublinirish]

retainage is my new favourite word of the day

 

[CarrollVermin]

OK. But here is the problem...........

Name the players that Kelly could have kept, but let get away?

I don't know that keeping them is necessarily what baffles me. Its more to the question of, why are they leaving in the first place. I understand that attrition is part of the game, but the rate at which it has occurred at ND in the last two years should sound an alarm. That is what I want answered more than anything...why are these guys leaving and what is being done to ensure that changes are made to the culture, recruiting, or otherwise to help keep these classes together.

 

[tadman95]

I'm no expert but here's what I know. The one season BK had a QB that fit his offense, ND played for the NC. Now I realize the defense got us there more than EG, but ND was there. I also know the D has taken a step back and has a ton of injuries, but two of the three losses (OU, Pitt) were mostly due to turnovers. Protect the ball and ND wins those games. I can't and won't judge BK on this season because he's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Injuries and turnovers have killed this team, not BK.

Well said and I agree.

I still hate the spread.

 

[kmoose]

I don't know that keeping them is necessarily what baffles me. Its more to the question of, why are they leaving in the first place. I understand that attrition is part of the game, but the rate at which it has occurred at ND in the last two years should sound an alarm. That is what I want answered more than anything...why are these guys leaving and what is being done to ensure that changes are made to the culture, recruiting, or otherwise to help keep these classes together.

It's quite simple, actually........

All ND needs to do is:

1. Drop their academic standards to the point where even Andy Katzenmoyer could get in.

2. Distribute the "Morning/Month/Year After" pill to all players' girlfriends.......... especially the ones in other states.

3. Petition the Pope to work miracles and cure sick grandmothers.

That should just about cover it, I think?

 

[wizards8507]

It's quite simple, actually........

All ND needs to do is:

1. Drop their academic standards to the point where even Andy Katzenmoyer could get in.

2. Distribute the "Morning/Month/Year After" pill to all players' girlfriends.......... especially the ones in other states.

3. Petition the Pope to work miracles and cure sick grandmothers.

That should just about cover it, I think?

RKGs right? Isn't that BK's whole thing? He likes to say it and tweet it, but is he actually executing the "RKG" strategy? Go after the kids where you don't have to worry about pregnant girlfiends or just plain d*ck moves during the recruiting process. I'd rather see a top-25 class with guys that stick around than a top-5 class that's all gone by sophomore year.

EDIT: Other teams go through this too. There's no reason why it should disproportionately affect Notre Dame. BK went to the BCS with CINCINNATI in year 3, so there must be something we're missing about what his issue is HERE.

 

[phork]

RKGs right? Isn't that BK's whole thing? He likes to say it and tweet it, but is he actually executing the "RKG" strategy? Go after the kids where you don't have to worry about pregnant girlfiends or just plain d*ck moves during the recruiting process. I'd rather see a top-25 class with guys that stick around than a top-5 class that's all gone by sophomore year.

EDIT: Other teams go through this too. There's no reason why it should disproportionately affect Notre Dame. BK went to the BCS with CINCINNATT in year 3, so there must be something we're missing about what his issue is HERE.

Cincy to BCS == Curb Stomped
ND to to NC == Curb Stomped

Right on course!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I expect 10+ every year with the occasional 9 win season. Anything below that is a disappointment to me.

Me too. Expecting Anything less would be unacceptable.

Then you're part of the problem.

I would much rather be disappointed if we win less than 10 than happy if we win 8. If we aren't a mediocre program then we shouldn't be happy with mediocre results. To me 8-5 / 9-4 is mediocre.

There's not a single standard for "success" that can be applied to every team in every season. A coach who managed to win 8-9 games every year but never made the BCS/ playoffs would probably be considered a failure. But as kmoose pointed out, winning 8-9 games this year-- with our backup QB, an injury-riddled defense, etc.-- would count as a good season. Context is important.

And recognizing that doesn't mean that we're suddenly OK with 8-9 every year. But outside of 'Bama recently, no one wins 10 every year. It's unrealistic to expect that from any coach, let alone our own program which faces a lot of unique challenges.

 

[Pachuco]

Thank you. I'll take a couple "ringers" as well.


Like I said...Nobody cares about grades on Saturday.

Too bad grades matter the rest of the week.

Good thing athletes never have career ending injuries.

Football the end all be all.

The point is that the COLLEGE game SHOULD factor in the bigger picture from all fronts.

These are humans after all. Balance is key. Winning on and off the field is not just an expression.

It matters.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

RKGs right? Isn't that BK's whole thing? He likes to say it and tweet it, but is he actually executing the "RKG" strategy? Go after the kids where you don't have to worry about pregnant girlfiends or just plain d*ck moves during the recruiting process. I'd rather see a top-25 class with guys that stick around than a top-5 class that's all gone by sophomore year.

EDIT: Other teams go through this too. There's no reason why it should disproportionately affect Notre Dame. BK went to the BCS with CINCINNATI in year 3, so there must be something we're missing about what his issue is HERE.

I think attrition will affect ND disproportionately because the vast majority of each recruiting class is far from home. Unless ND builds its program on midwestern kids they will face these issues at a greater rate than other schools. I think exhibit A for the risk in this strategy is USC's last recruiting class. Maybe it's better to worry a bit more about retention and a bit less about talent level but the guys who have left are disproportionately 5 star types - which are exactly the guys ND should be rolling the dice on. I don't think there is an easy answer here.

 

[Cackalacky]

RKGs right? Isn't that BK's whole thing? He likes to say it and tweet it, but is he actually executing the "RKG" strategy? Go after the kids where you don't have to worry about pregnant girlfiends or just plain d*ck moves during the recruiting process. I'd rather see a top-25 class with guys that stick around than a top-5 class that's all gone by sophomore year.

EDIT: Other teams go through this too. There's no reason why it should disproportionately affect Notre Dame. BK went to the BCS with CINCINNATI in year 3, so there must be something we're missing about what his issue is HERE.

Notre Dame's admissions standards are much different than Cinci or other BCS schools for that matter. Definitely puts them in the minority of CFB.

Am I the only one who thinks we keep bringing up the same things over and over again? I feel dizzy.

 

[IrishLax]

Cincy to BCS == Curb Stomped
ND to to NC == Curb Stomped

Right on course!

Hehe... the one constant there? Both teams played dynasties. The Florida team that stomped Cincy went 13-1 and was #1 all season until they lost to Bama in the SEC championship game going for their 3rd championship in 4 years.

The Alabama team that stomped ND went 13-1 and won its 3rd championship in 4 years.

 

[RDU Irish]

Kelly didn't coach that Cinci curb stomping, he already bolted for ND.

Still think Manti's mental state counted for some of that stomping. Not that we would have won, just not been as embarrassed. If this year has taught me nothing else, middle linebackers can impact a game more than I ever imagined.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>ND has lost 8 players for the season who were or were projected to be on the 2-deep, + 4 expected to contribute. In 2012, they lost only 3.</p>— One Foot Down (@OneFootDown) <a href="https://twitter.com/OneFootDown/statuses/400302582125436928">November 12, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Wild Bill]

I think attrition will affect ND disproportionately because the vast majority of each recruiting class is far from home. Unless ND builds its program on midwestern kids they will face these issues at a greater rate than other schools. I think exhibit A for the risk in this strategy is USC's last recruiting class. Maybe it's better to worry a bit more about retention and a bit less about talent level but the guys who have left are disproportionately 5 star types - which are exactly the guys ND should be rolling the dice on. I don't think there is an easy answer here.

IMO, you can't build a top defense with Midwest recruits. This is especially true with core 6 doing their best to push Chicago recruits away from ND.

You have to roll the dice on elite talent. Perfect example: Is Nyles Morgan a take? He's considering ND, in large part, b/c his father is putting pressure on him. Let's say the old man wins out and he wants in - is he a take? He's certainly not, at least in my mind, a RKG. He's a take IMO b/c he is a difference maker. If he commits, we'll all celebrate but if he transfers after one year...something is terribly wrong within the program.

 

[RDU Irish]

We have a thinner margin for error than we would all like. It would be great if we were more dominant but the fact is we are good, not great. Good teams get beat by teams like Pitt and Navy periodically. Good teams usually go 7-5 or 8-4, especially with our schedule. Good teams will even get double digit wins periodically when the ball bounces right or the schedule is light. We are a good team, that is a decent QB away from being great. Not even an elite/top 10 QB, just give us a top 25 QB and we are looking pretty darn tough to beat, even with our injuries.

As is, I don't see how we can whine too much about a probable 8-4 finish? It is what we should have expected of this team THIS year. I am not happy with that on an absolute basis, however I accept that is what we are. I fully expect this to be a down year for our program when we look back in five years, which is what makes it acceptable in the bigger picture. Can't win them all but we are FINALLY in a position (after a few decades) where I fully expect we CAN win them all.

 

[IrishFan4L]

Notre Dame's admissions standards are much different than ND or other BCS schools for that matter.Definitely puts them in the minority of CFB.

Am I the only one who thinks we keep bringing up the same things over and over again? I feel dizzy.

What your saying is true we're just beating a dead dog. Notre Dame needs to put up or shut, we're definitely not a bcs team & why people wanted us to get there is beyond me. Even with 10 wins there isn't a top 10 maybe 15 team that wouldn't beat us by 5 or more touchdowns! We've played **** all year & barely got by. There is only 2 teams that will be ranked that we played @ the end of the year. Pathetic . ND record 2010 (8-5), 2011(8-5), 2012 (12-1), 2013 (7-4 maybe 8-5) what's more likely next year with no d line or ilbs? 8-5 nice little trend we got here.

 

[irishog77]

Then you're part of the problem.



There's not a single standard for "success" that can be applied to every team in every season. A coach who managed to win 8-9 games every year but never made the BCS/ playoffs would probably be considered a failure. But as kmoose pointed out, winning 8-9 games this year-- with our backup QB, an injury-riddled defense, etc.-- would count as a good season. Context is important.

And recognizing that doesn't mean that we're suddenly OK with 8-9 every year. But outside of 'Bama recently, no one wins 10 every year. It's unrealistic to expect that from any coach, let alone our own program which faces a lot of unique challenges.

Stanford's on a pretty good run. And they face some of the unique challenges as ND.

They lost an incredible head coach and a once in a generation QB along the way too...yet haven't skipped a beat-- they're well on their way to their 4th consecutive 11+ win season and BCS bowl.

And ND possesses some advantages over Stanford when it comes to recruiting/fan base/facilities. I see no reason why BK and ND can't approach what Stanford is currently doing.

 

[RDU Irish]

What your saying is true we're just beating a dead dog. Notre Dame needs to put up or shut, we're definitely not a bcs team & why people wanted us to get there is beyond me. Even with 10 wins there isn't a top 10 maybe 15 team that wouldn't beat us by 5 or more touchdowns! We've played **** all year & barely got by. There is only 2 teams that will be ranked that we played @ the end of the year. Pathetic . ND record 2010 (8-5), 2011(8-5), 2012 (12-1), 2013 (7-4 maybe 8-5) what's more likely next year with no d line or ilbs? 8-5 nice little trend we got here.

Apparently you missed the last two decades. Yes, the trend is much better than we have seen since Holtz.

 

[IrishLax]

What your saying is true we're just beating a dead dog. Notre Dame needs to put up or shut, we're definitely not a bcs team & why people wanted us to get there is beyond me. Even with 10 wins there isn't a top 10 maybe 15 team that wouldn't beat us by 5 or more touchdowns! We've played **** all year & barely got by. There is only 2 teams that will be ranked that we played @ the end of the year. Pathetic . ND record 2010 (8-5), 2011(8-5), 2012 (12-1), 2013 (7-4 maybe 8-5) what's more likely next year with no d line or ilbs? 8-5 nice little trend we got here.

Think more, post less.

ASU, MSU, and OU are all currently ranked. Likely ASU, MSU, and Stanford are all almost guaranteed to be ranked at the end of the year... it is more likely that ASU, MSU, Stanford, and two of USC/Oklahoma/BYU/Michigan finish the year in the top 25 than it is that somehow every team we've played basically folds down the stretch and there are only two ranked teams on our schedule.

Second, MSU is a top 15 1-loss team right now. Their only loss is to ND. But they would win by 5+ TDs? Yeah, that makes sense.

Just cut it with the hyperbole. It's annoying and stupid. No, Notre Dame is not "good" but the stuff you are espousing is completely ludicrous on every level.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Stanford's on a pretty good run. And they face some of the unique challenges as ND.

They lost an incredible head coach and a once in a generation QB along the way too...yet haven't skipped a beat-- they're well on their way to their 4th consecutive 11+ win season and BCS bowl.

That's fair.

And ND possesses some advantages over Stanford when it comes to recruiting/fan base/facilities. I see no reason why BK and ND can't approach what Stanford is currently doing.

SU got their program builder 3 years earlier than we did, and Kelly probably won't ever have a QB as good as Luck, but I otherwise agree with you. Stanford is the measuring stick. Their recruiting strategy and offensive scheme seem to be much more successful given the common challenges both programs face.

 

[connor_in]

Stanford's on a pretty good run. And they face some of the unique challenges as ND.

They lost an incredible head coach and a once in a generation QB along the way too...yet haven't skipped a beat-- they're well on their way to their 4th consecutive 11+ win season and BCS bowl.

And ND possesses some advantages over Stanford when it comes to recruiting/fan base/facilities. I see no reason why BK and ND can't approach what Stanford is currently doing.

Quick question (not trying to be a d-bag, this is a complete curiousity question)...

How long did it take Harbaugh to get the program to where it is now that his replacement keeps on the same rails?

Edit : WHOOPS! Thanks whiskey for answering while I was logging in to ask!

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Quick question (not trying to be a d-bag, this is a complete curiousity question)...

How long did it take Harbaugh to get the program to where it is now that his replacement keeps on the same rails?

It took Harbaugh 4 years to make Stanford elite, and Shaw's in year 3 of maintenance mode.

Harbaugh:
2007 - 4-8
2008 - 5-7
2009 - 8-5
2010 - 12-1

Shaw:
2011 - 11-2
2012 - 12-2

 

[Emcee77]

I'm no expert but here's what I know. The one season BK had a QB that fit his offense, ND played for the NC. Now I realize the defense got us there more than EG, but ND was there. I also know the D has taken a step back and has a ton of injuries, but two of the three losses (OU, Pitt) were mostly due to turnovers. Protect the ball and ND wins those games. I can't and won't judge BK on this season because he's trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Injuries and turnovers have killed this team, not BK.

I totally agree with this entire post, and I'll add to the bolded that, while the Michigan loss was primarily on the defense, Rees's INT just before halftime really hurt. So it would only be a little bit of a stretch to say that all of our losses were due to turnovers.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I totally agree with this entire post, and I'll add to the bolded that, while the Michigan loss was primarily on the defense, Rees's INT just before halftime really hurt. So it would only be a little bit of a stretch to say that all of our losses were due to turnovers.

So did Gardner's INT in his own endzone. That's at least a wash with Rees' 2Q INT. The UM loss is squarely on the defense.

 

[connor_in]

It took Harbaugh 4 years to make Stanford elite, and Shaw's in year 3 of maintenance mode.

Harbaugh:
2007 - 4-8
2008 - 5-7
2009 - 8-5
2010 - 12-1

Shaw:
2011 - 11-2
2012 - 12-2

and Luck came in with the 2008 class of recruits...must be nice

Golson's no Luck but he came in BK's 2nd year and sat out his own 1st year, 12-0 second year (mostly due to D and Reesus helping in back-up duty), and would have been more in control this year...ahhh what could have been...

 

[irishog77]

Luck came in '07-- he was a redshirt Junior when he left.

 

[BobD]

That's fair.



SU got their program builder 3 years earlier than we did, and Kelly probably won't ever have a QB as good as Luck, but I otherwise agree with you. Stanford is the measuring stick. Their recruiting strategy and offensive scheme seem to be much more successful given the common challenges both programs face.

I don't think we should use Stanford as a measuring stick.

Whether we like it or not, the thought of committing to a religious university in South Bend Indiana is not as popular with most teens as a private university in sunny California.

 

[Cali_domer]

I don't think we should use Stanford as a measuring stick.

Whether we like it or not, the thought of committing to a religious university in South Bend Indiana is not as popular with most teens as a private university in sunny California.

We out recruit Stanford yearly so it is a fair comparison.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't think we should use Stanford as a measuring stick.

Whether we like it or not, the thought of committing to a religious university in South Bend Indiana is not as popular with most teens as a private university in sunny California.

I don't think that differences in religious character and weather invalidate the comparison.