Student-Athlete Majors

[Buster Bluth]

For the record...I don't care what Tuitt majors in as long as he's sacking the QB.

Just win, baby.

We should get a kins major. That's very attractive to athletes.

What a coincidence that two of the most impatient and negative posters this season also want to see Notre Dame morph into a minor league sports program.

 

[Emcee77]

It's not the Kinesthesiology major itself that is the problem. It's the fact that so many football players are funneled into it that makes it suspicious.

Right. I feel like some people think the question here is whether philosophy and other liberal arts majors are superior or inferior to kinesiology as a discipline of study. That ISN'T the question.

We're talking about what kind of educational experience student-athletes at particular schools are getting. The general belief -- and I don't know enough about UM to know exactly what it's based on, unless it's just the lower graduation rate and the fact that so many football players are in just a few majors -- seems to be that football players at UM are funneled into specific majors that won't require them to do any work and in which they won't learn anything. No one is saying that there is anything wrong with kinesiology as a major in general; the issue is that, for football players at UM, it's a complete joke. They take the class, take an easy test, and never worry too much about it.

As others in this thread have pointed out, even if philosophy or poli sci or another liberal arts major is easy, you have to read the books (or at least a cliffs notes version), grapple with the ideas, and write a semi-intelligent paper. The class is easy in the sense that you are unlikely to get worse than a B on that paper unless you really suck. But it's not easy to the extent that you have to really think about what you want to say and then go through the process of working the ideas out on paper. You cannot help but learn something from that if you have a good prof guiding you through the process, and, as Phammer and others have pointed out, you gain important critical thinking skills that will aid you later in life no matter what line of work you choose. That's the kind of thing that our football players, like all our students, are asked to do in their major classes. I can imagine a kinesiology class in which, say, the prof uses the same tests each semester and study outlines get passed down from player to player so no one ever has to do anything but memorize. No one's learning anything from that.

 

[Classic Irish]

For the record, I think he was questioning my view.

I said that they were no better than Kines.

I don't consider a psych degree any better than a kines degree.

With all due respect, that's total nonsense. One of my ND roommates graduated with an accounting degree and then went on to get his PhD in psychology. He is now a very successful therapist in Honolulu treating patients with very severe mental illness. You're clearly entitled to your opinion, but I could not disagree more. You seem to hold a lot of uninformed and misguided notions.

 

[CraigKrenzel]

I was a journalism major -- that was a cakewalk

 

[koonja]

What a coincidence that two of the most impatient and negative posters this season also want to see Notre Dame morph into a minor league sports program.

Wait, I'm negative? Aren't you the guy who tells everyone they're an idiot in the gameday threads lol?

I'm comfortable with my stance on loosening athletics. So is coach Brian Kelly.

 

[Rack Em]

Wait, I'm negative? Aren't you the guy who tells everyone they're an idiot in the gameday threads lol?

I'm comfortable with my stance on loosening athletics. So is coach Brian Kelly.

That's not a justifiable reason.

 

[koonja]

And you get out if kins what you put into it. I had a friend major in kins and he's now a surgeon.

It's not about creating a 'cream puff major', it's about creating one that lots of athletes are interested in.

So buster, take your snide comment and save it for the gameday thread.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

And you get out if kins what you put into it. I had a friend major in kins and he's now a surgeon.

It's not about creating a 'cream puff major', it's about creating one that lots of athletes are interested in.

So buster, take your snide comment and save it for the gameday thread.

Which required grad school, the necessity of which was used as an argument why certain majors are useless earlier in this thread.

 

[irishroo]

Over on the Scout.com board, a fellow IrishEyes member brought this to my attention:

Scout.com: scUM's "academics"


We always hear about academics so much during the year, especially during the recruiting process, and how we compare more favourably against other schools, so this really interested me. Anyways, to make a long story short, I researched our roster of scholarship upperclassmen.

By comparison, we breakdown as such (data from 45 players):


Mendoza College of Business

Management Consulting - 23.3% - Joke
(Fox, Grace, Hanratty, Hegarty, Heggie, Hounshell, Lombard, N.Martin, Rees, Welch)

Marketing - 11.6% - 1/2 Joke
(Koyack, Massa, Danny Smith, Stockton, Watt)

Management Entrepreneurship - 7% - Joke
(Z.Martin, Niklas, Schmidt)

Finance - 2.3% - Solid
(Collinsworth)

College of Arts & Letters

Film Television and Theatre - 18.6% - Joke
(George Atkinson III, Josh Atkinson, Farley, Jackson, T.J. Jones, Moore, Big Lou and Lo Wood)

Undeclared - 9.3%
(Daniels, Hardy, Rabasa, and Schembo)

Design - 7% - Unknown
(Brindza, Calabrese, Councell)

Anthropology - 7% - Joke
(Schwenke, Tuitt, Utupo)

Sociology - 4.7% - Joke
(Jalen Brown and Tausch)

History - 2.3% - 1/2 Joke
(Springmann)

Political Science - 2.3% - 1/2 Joke
(Spond)

Psychology - 2.3% - Joke
(McDaniel)

Philosophy - 2.3% - Solid
(Ishaq Williams)

College of Science

Pre-Professional Studies - 2.3% - Difficult
(Obviously Hendrix)

First Year of Studies

First Year Curriculum- 2.3% (Amir Carlisle)

I'd wager that pretty much everybody defending the vast majority of these as legit majors didn't go to ND. Anthro/Soc/Psych especially are the worst. Also, everybody saying it's ridiculous how many UM players are in kinesiology - do you know what kinesiology is? Via Wikipedia:

"Kinesiology, also known as human kinetics, is the scientific study of human movement. Kinesiology addresses physiological, mechanical, and psychological mechanisms. Applications of kinesiology to human health include: biomechanics and orthopedics; strength and conditioning; sport psychology; methods of rehabilitation, such as physical and occupational therapy; and sport and exercise."

Sounds like something many top-level athletes would and should be interested in. Hate to break it to you all, but our players aren't any more academically inclined than those at many other schools.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Wait, I'm negative? Aren't you the guy who tells everyone they're an idiot in the gameday threads lol?

Nope.

I'm comfortable with my stance on loosening athletics. So is coach Brian Kelly.

And there are ways to do this without compromising Notre Dame's values. I too believe that Notre Dame can and should change some policies, and it's not like Notre Dame won't accept a guy with a 16 on his ACT if he meets the core classes/GPA qualifications.

The difference here is that I--and most on this board--would like to see changes based on how kids are admitted to the university, and less so on what their academic life is like once they're there. Notre Dame graduates like 97% of their players right now (100% black, 93% white, no?), it's not like it needs a complete overhaul.

Just because they need to bring in qualified Junior College players, and change Calculus and Foreign Language requirements does not at all mean that I want the university to create an entire major because "the athletes are interested in it."

Regardless, <100% of what Brian Kelly wants is the best move for Notre Dame.

 

[sparkyND]

Some of the arguments about which majors is better (or not) than some other majors is a very simplistic argument and thus provides either a narrow or false conclusions. I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts on this issue:

1. University degree value matters (1): As a poster above alluded to, a psychology major at ND could be worth more (if it can be measured) than kinesiology (or other degrees) at many other universities due to sheer networking, degree value and real-life opportunities that it might provide. The institutional worth could (but not always) provide weight to the overall value of the degree regardless of the major itself.

2. University degree value matters (2): This is especially true when one is attending a Liberal Arts University/College (such as ND). These schools are primarily structured in a way that students learn broadly and train them partly with real-life oriented tools but also the fundamentals, knowledge and the ability to think through issues/puzzles/problems. At ND, I particularly like the fact that all undergrads are obligated to take a philosophy and religion class as first year students. Regardless of which major a student might end up taking, this type of training, though not immediately visible, is a valuable class students take (and later appreciate) as they develop into adults.

3. Student goals and career choices: There are thousands of different jobs out there. It cannot simply be measured in terms of salary. Students pursue different goals once out of college and this is not necessarily a matter of which major is better or not. Life is a marathon and people take steps to accomplish their different goals in life. Some end up taking majors because they could not think of one better. But most others, take certain majors, be it philosophy or anthropology, because it leads them to certain careers and goals in life. Simplifying it is just nonsensical.

4. Disparity between college and real-life: I worked a bit in the financial sector in the past. (1) The folks there will tell you that there is always a 1-2 year adjustment period once you enter the workforce. Some companies have a mentoring phase, others simply call it an internship program. Regardless of which major or background you may have, it is not a easy transition period. (2) Also, many people end up doing things unrelated to their majors. A philosophy major does not always end up teaching philosophy. Unless it is a job that requires additional training, like an MD, lawyer or PhD, people in the workforce have different majors. Just do a simple survey and it is easy to find that out. (3) Based on my conversation with my boss back then, he used to tell me that people with thorough training, be it philosophy or history, end up being the most successful in what they do. What they look for is not some narrow skill-set but rather the ability to think big and work, both individually or as a team, in solving key problems, whatever that may be.

5. Liberal Arts majors: Personal observation. From my interaction with folks, though a small sample size, I found the folks in the humanities and liberal arts to be some of the most sophisticated and smart people I've ever interacted with. Meaning: how smart one is cannot be measured in terms of which major one belongs to.

I don't want to offend or pick fights with anyone on this board. But, this whole notion that a major is better/easier than others or that one offers better job prospects/better pay than others is just nonsense to me. Life is much more complex, the world much more interesting and knowledge that much broader for this to be so narrowly discussed.

Having said all this, I am curious to know what courses the UM players take regardless of their majors. The big issue and difference between ND and other schools is the fact that student-athletes at ND are required to attend classes and do well in general. Other schools, from what I've heard from friends at other institutions, this is not the case: profs go easy on them, classes are too big, and certain classes are tailored for the student-athletes. I'm just glad and proud that ND football players are taking diverse majors.

 

[irishpat183]

With all due respect, that's total nonsense. One of my ND roommates graduated with an accounting degree and then went on to get his PhD in psychology. He is now a very successful therapist in Honolulu treating patients with very severe mental illness. You're clearly entitled to your opinion, but I could not disagree more. You seem to hold a lot of uninformed and misguided notions.

And you're misinformed as well....I also have friends. One happens to have majored in Kines and is also an extremely successful GM at a sports complex he and a buddy opened.

He worked in physical therapy for about 6 yrs and made a KILLING.

Again...what makes you think a psych degree holds more value than a Kines degree?

I'm sure we can go tit for tat on examples all day.

My bro in law is a history major (gave up on architecture)....lol. Waiting tables.

 

[gkIrish]

Some of the wealthiest people in this country never graduated from college. This is the most pointless debate I've seen on here in a long time. It's all about what you make out of your own life.

 

[CanadalovesND]

Yep. Why the hell not? It's just as attractive as a psych degree. Especially at ND.

It doesn't matter what the hell you graduate with at ND...it's an ND degree. Basket weaving. Kines. Womens studies. Who cares!??

But lets not slam another school for offering ****** degrees...when we got a team full of psych majors.


Just be a 4.0 on the field. That's all I care about on Saturdays. Yes, I'm aware that's a very unpopular opinion. But it's my own. You dont have to share it.

We have one psych major...

 

[stlnd01]

I'd wager that pretty much everybody defending the vast majority of these as legit majors didn't go to ND. Anthro/Soc/Psych especially are the worst. Also, everybody saying it's ridiculous how many UM players are in kinesiology - do you know what kinesiology is? Via Wikipedia:

And I'd wager the ones who are hitting them the hardest didn't go to ND. Because if they did they would have taken two philosophy classes and they'd know those classes are no joke. And they'd know people who majored in history or sociology or American Studies (like me, and several football players of my vintage) who are just as "successful" as the people who majored in biology or chemical engineering or accounting. It's not just about what you study but also about what you do with it.

I think the issue with Michigan kinesiology is that such a disproportionately large share of football players major in it. That's a little odd. Yes, ND football players are disproportionately studying Business and Arts & Letters. But those are broad areas, not one major that - while it can certainly be more than this if you want it to be - can be construed as glorified phys ed.

 

[Rack Em]

Yep. Why the hell not? It's just as attractive as a psych degree. Especially at ND.

It doesn't matter what the hell you graduate with at ND...it's an ND degree. Basket weaving. Kines. Womens studies. Who cares!??

But lets not slam another school for offering ****** degrees...when we got a team full of psych majors.


Just be a 4.0 on the field. That's all I care about on Saturdays. Yes, I'm aware that's a very unpopular opinion. But it's my own. You dont have to share it.

It's very popular below the Mason-Dixon line.

 

[Irish To The Core]

That's exactly what I'm telling you.

Philosophy, History, sociolgy? really? Hell, the kines major has a better chance at a job than those degrees.


Again, it's ND guys so everyone on here is defending. I don't really care what a kid majors in. But for us to slam other schools for a Kines major....then walk out guys that are in the "college of fine arts", is hypocritical.

What, exactly, does securing a job have to do with academic validity? If getting a job is the chief criteria for judging an education then perhaps trade school is a more serious academic choice.

I hope you will excuse me for being judgmental, but your comment displays a real lack of respect for education. Believe it or not, some people value an education for more than the materialistic rewards at the end of the rainbow. Earning a History degree at Notre Dame is a real achievement. It might not lead directly to a job that you would consider impressive, but it will likely open further educational opportunities.

And to head off your inevitable challenge about what I do and what my education is; I hold a B.A. with a major in history and an M.Ed. I teach at a college and perhaps I earn less than you, but I will retire comfortably at 55 years of age if I so choose. My history degree was not a dead end path and it was not even from the University of Notre Dame.

 

[BGIF]

Over on the Scout.com board, a fellow IrishEyes member brought this to my attention:

Scout.com: scUM's "academics"


We always hear about academics so much during the year, especially during the recruiting process, and how we compare more favourably against other schools, so this really interested me. Anyways, to make a long story short, I researched our roster of scholarship upperclassmen.

By comparison, we breakdown as such (data from 45 players):


Mendoza College of Business

Management Consulting - 23.3%
(Fox, Grace, Hanratty, Hegarty, Heggie, Hounshell, Lombard, N.Martin, Rees, Welch)

Marketing - 11.6%
(Koyack, Massa, Danny Smith, Stockton, Watt)

Management Entrepreneurship - 7%
(Z.Martin, Niklas, Schmidt)

Finance - 2.3%
(Collinsworth)

College of Arts & Letters

Film Television and Theatre - 18.6%
(George Atkinson III, Josh Atkinson, Farley, Jackson, T.J. Jones, Moore, Big Lou and Lo Wood)

Undeclared - 9.3%
(Daniels, Hardy, Rabasa, and Schembo)

Design - 7%
(Brindza, Calabrese, Councell)

Anthropology - 7%
(Schwenke, Tuitt, Utupo)

Sociology - 4.7%
(Jalen Brown and Tausch)

History - 2.3%
(Springmann)

Political Science - 2.3%
(Spond)

Psychology - 2.3%
(McDaniel)

Philosophy - 2.3%
(Ishaq Williams)

College of Science

Pre-Professional Studies - 2.3%
(Obviously Hendrix)

First Year of Studies

First Year Curriculum- 2.3% (Amir Carlisle)

Canada, did you get this info from a 2013 ND Football Media Guide or a 2012?

I notice you have Carlisle listed in First Year, he was last year. The 2013 MG, which I've perused tonight, lists Carlise with a DUAL MAJOR in Film AND Business.

Likewise the 4 "Undeclared - 9.3% (Daniels, Hardy, Rabasa, and Schembo) all have majors in the '13 MG. Daniels and Hardy -Sociology, Rabasa and Schembo - Film


Lo Wood is in Film but he also is minoring in Africana Studies

Stockton and Watt both hold Marketing Degrees from Mendoza and both are doing post graduate work.

 

[BGIF]

Once again the "usual suspects" missed the gist of the O.P.

Further, 90% of UM's two deeps (86% of the entire roster) are represented by 4 majors - African American studies, Kinesiology (which if you remember, is a feeder program designed to keep athletes at UM eligible and is a very questionable degree), General studies, and undeclared.

While UM's football players are going through the motion in the "core" keep'em eligible majors or undeclared majors as documented by UM alumnus Harbough, SI, The Drake Group, et alius, 44% of the ND upperclassmen are in Mendoza's highly competetive programs getting meaningful degrees and 55% are the College of Arts in equally competitive programs.

Hendrix is in the scoffed at PreProfessional Program serving as a highly regarded PreMed program. Hardly comparable to UM's Phys. Ed majors.


Whatever program they are in, they are in it with a student body possessing an average SAT of 1350+ and having an extra 20 hours or more available to study and do their assignments. And they graduate at a superior rate in 4 years not 6.

 

[BGIF]

What, exactly, does securing a job have to do with academic validity? If getting a job is the chief criteria for judging an education then perhaps trade school is a more serious academic choice.

I hope you will excuse me for being judgmental, but your comment displays a real lack of respect for education. Believe it or not, some people value an education for more than the materialistic rewards at the end of the rainbow. Earning a History degree at Notre Dame is a real achievement. It might not lead directly to a job that you would consider impressive, but it will likely open further educational opportunities.

And to head off your inevitable challenge about what I do and what my education is; I hold a B.A. with a major in history and an M.Ed. I teach at a college and perhaps I earn less than you, but I will retire comfortably at 55 years of age if I so choose. My history degree was not a dead end path and it was not even from the University of Notre Dame.

Keep in mind, Pat's offered point of reference was his brother-in-law.

 

[dublinirish]

we should all go back to making fun of Ben Turk

 

[CanadalovesND]

Canada, did you get this info from a 2013 ND Football Media Guide or a 2012?

I notice you have Carlisle listed in First Year, he was last year. The 2013 MG, which I've perused tonight, lists Carlise with a DUAL MAJOR in Film AND Business.

Likewise the 4 "Undeclared - 9.3% (Daniels, Hardy, Rabasa, and Schembo) all have majors in the '13 MG. Daniels and Hardy -Sociology, Rabasa and Schembo - Film


Lo Wood is in Film but he also is minoring in Africana Studies

Stockton and Watt both hold Marketing Degrees from Mendoza and both are doing post graduate work.

I got the info from the players bio's on und.com

Seems a few of them were not updated

 

[irishroo]

Once again the "usual suspects" missed the gist of the O.P.




While UM's football players are going through the motion in the "core" keep'em eligible majors or undeclared majors as documented by UM alumnus Harbough, SI, The Drake Group, et alius, 44% of the ND upperclassmen are in Mendoza's highly competetive programs getting meaningful degrees and 55% are the College of Arts in equally competitive programs.

Hendrix is in the scoffed at PreProfessional Program serving as a highly regarded PreMed program. Hardly comparable to UM's Phys. Ed majors.


Whatever program they are in, they are in it with a student body possessing an average SAT of 1350+ and having an extra 20 hours or more available to study and do their assignments. And they graduate at a superior rate in 4 years not 6.

Except almost all the guys in Mendoza are in consulting or entrepreneurship, which are jokes, and most of the A&L guys are Soc, Psych, Anthro, or FTT, which are even bigger jokes. Once a significant number of players start doing finance/accounting in Mendoza or Econ/Philo/Math in A&L, I'll get to the level of self-satisfaction displayed by many on this board.

 

[#1rish]

Except almost all the guys in Mendoza are in consulting or entrepreneurship, which are jokes, and most of the A&L guys are Soc, Psych, Anthro, or FTT, which are even bigger jokes. Once a significant number of players start doing finance/accounting in Mendoza or Econ/Philo/Math in A&L, I'll get to the level of self-satisfaction displayed by many on this board.

It's actually quite sad that you consider a degree from Notre Dame a "joke".

 

[irishpat183]

It's very popular below the Mason-Dixon line.

So are championship rings....



To the rest of ya:

1. I didn't say a degree from ND was worthless. In fact, ND only enhances an otherwise, marginal degree. ****, I wish I went to ND. Good for you guys that studied hard and got in. I couldn't. Of course, now it doesn't matter to me, as I don't have it bad...at all.

2. Job prospects are all that matter and how it translates into the real world..you know...making money. So I dont give a damn if your degree in Art history "opened your mind". Employers don't care either. Need proof? Refer back to my article from Forbes.

3. I realize that people have made tons of money doing a number of different things. However, they are NOT THE NORM. The norm art history/athropologist/psych grad can't find a job. The numbers, FACTS, say as much. We all have a "guy who knows a guy"....we can trade stories all day.

4. My point, was that we can't bash a school for football players being Kines majors. Becuase, again, facts on my side, a anthropology degree is not any better.

 

[Kaneyoufeelit]

 

[kmoose]

You can spin your wheels all you want. You know I'm right.

Most of these guys ain't going to law school. Most of these guys ain't going pro.

Connect the dots.


And please pass this article along to the boys:

The 10 Worst College Majors - Forbes

So I guess Ishaq Williams must have a deep love for Philosophy. Or Schewke and Tuitt are Anthropolgy enthusists?? LOL

I don't think that the point was that these degrees would set these guys up for life. I think the point was that the athletes enrolled in these programs were going to have to really earn their degrees.

 

[notredomer23]

So are championship rings....



To the rest of ya:

1. I didn't say a degree from ND was worthless. In fact, ND only enhances an otherwise, marginal degree. ****, I wish I went to ND. Good for you guys that studied hard and got in. I couldn't. Of course, now it doesn't matter to me, as I don't have it bad...at all.

2. Job prospects are all that matter and how it translates into the real world..you know...making money. So I dont give a damn if your degree in Art history "opened your mind". Employers don't care either. Need proof? Refer back to my article from Forbes.

3. I realize that people have made tons of money doing a number of different things. However, they are NOT THE NORM. The norm art history/athropologist/psych grad can't find a job. The numbers, FACTS, say as much. We all have a "guy who knows a guy"....we can trade stories all day.

4. My point, was that we can't bash a school for football players being Kines majors. Becuase, again, facts on my side, a anthropology degree is not any better.

If you are looking at a major from how much money you will be making after graduation, you are doing it wrong.

 

[irishpat183]

If you are looking at a major from how much money you will be making after graduation, you are doing it wrong.

There is a reason that college kids can't find jobs these days...they don't major in something that pays them.


THAT is "doing it wrong". There could be nothing more ignorant, than spending, literally, 100's of thousands of dollars on a degree that doesn't translate into a job.


Just pure stupidity. And I did it (not 100's of thousands like ND costs). I majored in Mass Comm with minors in English and Marketing. Dumb. Shoud've went to biz school or engineering.

 

[kmoose]

There is a reason that college kids can't find jobs these days...they don't major in something that pays them.


THAT is "doing it wrong". There could be nothing more ignorant, than spending, literally, 100's of thousands of dollars on a degree that doesn't translate into a job.


Just pure stupidity. And I did it (not 100's of thousands like ND costs). I majored in Mass Comm with minors in English and Marketing. Dumb. Shoud've went to biz school or engineering.

I don't know about YOUR life, but I can assure you that the REST OF OUR lives would have been greatly enriched, had you majored in logic!