Student-Athlete Majors

Jason Pham

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So are championship rings....



To the rest of ya:

1. I didn't say a degree from ND was worthless. In fact, ND only enhances an otherwise, marginal degree. ****, I wish I went to ND. Good for you guys that studied hard and got in. I couldn't. Of course, now it doesn't matter to me, as I don't have it bad...at all.

2. Job prospects are all that matter and how it translates into the real world..you know...making money. So I dont give a damn if your degree in Art history "opened your mind". Employers don't care either. Need proof? Refer back to my article from Forbes.

3. I realize that people have made tons of money doing a number of different things. However, they are NOT THE NORM. The norm art history/athropologist/psych grad can't find a job. The numbers, FACTS, say as much. We all have a "guy who knows a guy"....we can trade stories all day.

4. My point, was that we can't bash a school for football players being Kines majors. Becuase, again, facts on my side, a anthropology degree is not any better.

You're relying on aggregate data and the norm to describe the situation of football players at Notre Dame who are in the fortunate and gainful position of being in the 1.5% of the student population in the U.S. who attend a top twenty university. It shouldn't take too much critical thinking to see the issue here. You're trying to prove something that nobody here is disputing and what you're trying to prove doesn't engage at all in the conversation the rest of us are having; we're not talking about the norm or the average, we're talking about the nature and value of a liberal arts degree from Notre Dame.

A liberal arts degree from Notre Dame is enhanced by the Notre Dame educational reputation as much as the Notre Dame's reputation is grounded in the quality of the instruction, the quality of the students, and the quality of the curriculum in these same programs. This is the added value that distinguishes a degree from a top university. Otherwise, following your logic, employers would be hiring grads of these universities for no substantive added value, which would show a real lack of critical thinking on their part.

Now I can't say whether an anthropology major at Notre Dame is having a tougher go at earning his degree than a kinesiology major at another school, but bringing up Forbes and the norm isn't helpful neither when comparing the difficulty of majors nor when discussing the prospects of a student in a non-norm situation.
 

NDBoiler

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You're relying on aggregate data and the norm to describe the situation of football players at Notre Dame who are in the fortunate and gainful position of being in the 1.5% of the student population in the U.S. who attend a top twenty university. It shouldn't take too much critical thinking to see the issue here. You're trying to prove something that nobody here is disputing and what you're trying to prove doesn't engage at all in the conversation the rest of us are having; we're not talking about the norm or the average, we're talking about the nature and value of a liberal arts degree from Notre Dame.

A liberal arts degree from Notre Dame is enhanced by the Notre Dame educational reputation as much as the Notre Dame's reputation is grounded in the quality of the instruction, the quality of the students, and the quality of the curriculum in these same programs. This is the added value that distinguishes a degree from a top university. Otherwise, following your logic, employers would be hiring grads of these universities for no substantive added value, which would show a real lack of critical thinking on their part.

Now I can't say whether an anthropology major at Notre Dame is having a tougher go at earning his degree than a kinesiology major at another school, but bringing up Forbes and the norm isn't helpful neither when comparing the difficulty of majors nor when discussing the prospects of a student in a non-norm situation.

^^^
winner_chicken_large.gif
 

wizards8507

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Except almost all the guys in Mendoza are in consulting or entrepreneurship, which are jokes, and most of the A&L guys are Soc, Psych, Anthro, or FTT, which are even bigger jokes. Once a significant number of players start doing finance/accounting in Mendoza or Econ/Philo/Math in A&L, I'll get to the level of self-satisfaction displayed by many on this board.

Math is in the college of science with the exception of the honors program (I believe).
 

ulukinatme

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It's funny, I just saw this posted on another college football forum:

35 Shocking Facts That Prove That College Education Has Become A Giant Money Making Scam

Heres a bit:

College education in America is a bad joke. Instead of preparing the next generation of leaders for the jobs of tomorrow, the college education “industry” has become a giant money making scam. We constantly preach to our high school students that they “need” to go to college and we tell them to not even worry about how much it is going to cost because a college education is “always” worth the money. Then we lend them outrageous amounts of money so that they can pay the gigantic bills for the “education” that they are receiving. But the truth is that the quality of education at America’s colleges and universities is absolutely abysmal these days. I spent 8 years at U.S. universities, and most of the courses that I took could have been passed by the family dog. Sadly, once our young people graduate they quickly discover that there are way too many college graduates and not nearly enough good jobs. Today, we have millions upon millions of young Americans that are enslaved to student loan debt for the rest of their lives. They were promised a bright future, but instead most of them are discovering that they are going to be working really hard to pay off financial predators for decades to come. Unfortunately, for most college graduates a diploma is simply a ticket to a crappy job and a lifetime of debt slavery.

The following are 35 shocking facts that prove that college education in America has become a giant money making scam….

The Student Loan Debt Bubble

#1 After adjusting for inflation, U.S. college students are borrowing about twice as much money as they did a decade ago.

#2 According to the College Board, college tuition is absolutely soaring. The following comes from a recent CBS News article….

Average tuition and fees at public colleges rose 8.3 percent this year and, with room and board, now exceed $17,000 a year, according to the College Board.

#3 Average yearly tuition at private universities in the United States is now up to $27,293. That figure has increased by 29% in just the past five years.

#4 In America today, approximately two-thirds of all college students graduate with student loan debt.

#5 In 2010, the average college graduate had accumulated approximately $25,000 in student loan debt by graduation day.

#6 According to the Student Loan Debt Clock, total student loan debt in the United States will surpass the 1 trillion dollar mark in early 2012.

#7 The total amount of student loan debt in the United States now exceeds the total amount of credit card debt in the United States.

#8 Over the past 25 years, the cost of college tuition has increased at an average rate that is approximately 6% higher than the general rate of inflation.

#9 Back in 1952, a full year of tuition at Harvard was only $600. Today, it is $35,568.

#10 The cost of college textbooks has tripled over the past decade.

#11 One survey found that 23 percent of all college students actually use credit cards to pay for tuition or fees.

#12 According to recent Pew Research Center polling, 75% of all Americans believe that college is too expensive for most Americans to afford.

#13 College has become so expensive that it is causing many college students to do desperate things in order to pay for it. For example, an increasing number of young college women are actively advertising on the Internet for “sugar daddies” who will help them pay their college bills.

#14 The student loan default rate has nearly doubled since 2005.

#15 Approximately 14 percent of all students that graduate with student loan debt end up defaulting within 3 years of making their first student loan payment.

The Quality Of College Education In America Stinks

#16 The typical U.S. college student spends less than 30 hours a week on academics.

#17 According to very extensive research detailed in a new book entitled “Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses“, 45 percent of all U.S. college students exhibit “no significant gains in learning” after two years in college.

#18 Today, college students spend approximately 50% less time studying than U.S. college students did just a few decades ago.

#19 35% of U.S. college students spend 5 hours or less studying per week.

#20 50% of U.S. college students have never taken a class where they had to write more than 20 pages.

#21 32% of U.S. college students have never taken a class where they had to read more than 40 pages in a week.

#22 U.S. college students spend 24% of their time sleeping, 51% of their time socializing and 7% of their time studying.

#23 Federal statistics reveal that only 36 percent of the full-time students who began college in 2001 received a bachelor’s degree within four years.

Not Enough Jobs For College Graduates

#24 Only 55.3% of Americans between the ages of 18 and 29 were employed last year. That was the lowest level that we have seen since World War II.

#25 According to the Economic Policy Institute, the “official” unemployment rate for college graduates younger than 25 years old was 9.3 percent in 2010.

#26 One-third of all college graduates end up taking jobs that don’t even require college degrees.

#27 In the United States today, there are more than 100,000 janitors that have college degrees.

#28 In the United States today, 317,000 waiters and waitresses have college degrees.

#29 In the United States today, approximately 365,000 cashiers have college degrees.

#30 In the United States today, 24.5 percent of all retail salespeople have a college degree.

#31 The percentage of mail carriers with a college degree is now 4 times higher than it was back in 1970.

#32 Right now, there are 5.9 million Americans between the ages of 25 and 34 that are living with their parents.

#33 According to one recent survey, only 14 percent of all Americans that are 28 or 29 years old are optimistic about their financial futures.

#34 Record numbers of Americans are going to college, but incomes for young American adults just keep falling. Since the year 2000, incomes for U.S. households led by someone between the ages of 25 and 34 have fallen by about 12 percent after you adjust for inflation.

#35 Once they get out into the “real world”, 70% of all college graduates wish that they had spent more time preparing for the “real world” while they were still in school.

So is going to college always a bad idea?

Of course not.

But it is a huge gamble.

There is no guarantee that all of the time, money and effort that you put into getting a college education is going to pay off with a promising career.

If you want to go to college, my advice would be to get someone else to pay for it. Failing that, try to get the best quality education that you can at the lowest price possible.

And try to go into as little debt as you possibly can in the process.

Today, there are millions of college students that wish that they had done things differently.
 

irishroo

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Math is in the college of science with the exception of the honors program (I believe).

Glad you said that. Had to look up the list of A&L majors to jog memory and was surprised to see math there. Makes much more sense if it's just Honors
 

wizards8507

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Glad you said that. Had to look up the list of A&L majors to jog memory and was surprised to see math there. Makes much more sense if it's just Honors

Yeah I applied as a math major but switched to accounting because I didn't feel like taking the College of Science requirements (two each of physics, chemistry, and biology). This is the math major in Arts & Letters, which no athlete will ever take. Ever.

Honors Program in Arts & Letters - This is a rigorous mathematics major program, in the College of Arts and Letters, which like the Honors Program is aimed at students with a more theoretical bent, and in particular at students who may want to pursue graduate study in mathematics.
 

wizards8507

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It's funny, I just saw this posted on another college football forum:

35 Shocking Facts That Prove That College Education Has Become A Giant Money Making Scam

Heres a bit:

The federal student loan program is responsible for a good bit of that. 17 and 18 year-olds view federal student loans as "free money" so there's virtually no "shopping" for school based on price because, hey, they can just borrow to cover the difference. When the consumer doesn't care about price, universities can charge whatever they want.

See also: Healthcare.
 

chubler

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^ agreed, make your point, but I think it is quite relevant. I think what Pat doesn't and realistically can't know without having attended ND is the effect of the school, the network, and the specific strengths of each on the job prospects for individual majors. For those of us blessed enough to attend top 1% schools, majoring in english or philosophy can be just as valid a career path to wall street as majoring in finance, depending on what electives you take and I know plenty of people who are taking and who have taken that path. That is simply not true at 99% of universities in the country, though.

One last shot across the bow about philosophy- It's not just sitting around thinking about things, at least at ND. The point of philosophy is learning to construct and deconstruct arguments, and we could use a little more education like that around here, and in this day and age.
 

irishfanjho15

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I have a BA in sociology/anthropology with a politics minor from a small liberal arts college that has a sterling academic reputation.

I know this will be hard to believe but I have a well paying job with great benefits.

I also played football in college and not one other football player on my team was a SO/AN major, because it was a ton of work. Ton of reading. Ton of writing. Ton of research. Ton of rewriting. And they were more apt to avoid such difficult work.

My father is a sociology PhD and is a professor at a state school in Indiana. Who also makes damn good money especially when he teaches summer classes. He is also doing what he loves which is engaging students in a classroom setting to be more than people who can take multiple choice tests.

So Pat I know a guy who knows a guy. And you are what we thought you were, a jerk off. You don't like when people don't agree with you and you write a bunch of posts to try and justify the crap you spew. Stop taking underhanded shots at people who have, as you would more than likely call it, "crappier degrees" than you. You can have an opinion without being a complete douche about it.
 
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BGIF

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Except almost all the guys in Mendoza are in consulting or entrepreneurship, which are jokes, and most of the A&L guys are Soc, Psych, Anthro, or FTT, which are even bigger jokes. Once a significant number of players start doing finance/accounting in Mendoza or Econ/Philo/Math in A&L, I'll get to the level of self-satisfaction displayed by many on this board.


I'm curious how Mendoza obtained and maintains its lofty rankings from U.S. News and World Report, Forbes, et al., with "joke" programs?

Or are you just expressing your disdain for Management (Consulting and Entrepreneurship) majors?

Or your disdain for student athletes that don't take as rigorous a major as you?

Of course, they probably lack your IQ. As we all know, most of them would not have been admitted to ND without an athletic scholarship. Then again, what with games, practice, film breakdown, meetings, travel, weigh training, and injuries they have a lot less time available than you to get their coursework done.

The tone of your post sounds similar to Sheldon's dismissive putdowns of Howard for only having two engineering degrees. So, how's theoretical particle physics working out for you?
 

irishfanjho15

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I'm curious how Mendoza obtained and maintains its lofty rankings from U.S. News and World Report, Forbes, et al., with "joke" programs?

Or are you just expressing your disdain for Management (Consulting and Entrepreneurship) majors?

Or your disdain for student athletes that don't take as rigorous a major as you?

Of course, they probably lack your IQ. As we all know, most of them would not have been admitted to ND without an athletic scholarship. Then again, what with games, practice, film breakdown, meetings, travel, weigh training, and injuries they have a lot less time available than you to get their coursework done.

The tone of your post sounds similar to Sheldon's dismissive putdowns of Howard for only having two engineering degrees. So, how's theoretical particle physics working out for you?

Exactly. The sociology/anthropology program I graduated from just continues to graduate students who go on to be PhDs from some of the best soc/anthro programs in the country. I guess the graduate schools are all in on the joke also.

The issue is starting to show its true direction. Obviously some people have a disdain for the social sciences. More importantly, the true colors nature of blasting people because they did not/do not pursue a degree YOU find acceptable is not surprising, especially considering this drivel is being spewed by such craptastic posters.
 
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Irish Houstonian

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I'm curious how Mendoza obtained and maintains its lofty rankings from U.S. News and World Report, Forbes, et al., with "joke" programs?...

I have no clue what majors are 'jokes' and what aren't, but U.S. News rankings, for example, don't take into account academic rigor.
 
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Cackalacky

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Oh no.... not the "liberal art degrees aren't valuable" argument again.
 

BGIF

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I have no clue what majors are 'jokes' and what aren't, but U.S. News rankings, for example, don't take into account academic rigor.

You and I may not have a clue but Irishroo does.


As for U.S. News, according to their own article on their methodology, Academic Reputation is 22.5% of the rating. It's accomplished by Peer Assessment not by U.S. News staff.

Undergraduate academic reputation (22.5 percent): The U.S. News ranking formula gives significant weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's undergraduate academic excellence. The academic peer assessment survey allows top academics – presidents, provosts and deans of admissions – to account for intangibles at peer institutions such as faculty dedication to teaching.*
 

wizards8507

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You and I may not have a clue but Irishroo does.

As for U.S. News, according to their own article on their methodology, Academic Reputation is 22.5% of the rating. It's accomplished by Peer Assessment not by U.S. News staff.

U.S. News has received criticism on this methodology as well. There's a certain anti-religious sentiment that pervades higher education in general, especially among the "elite" professorial types of the Ivy League. There's speculation that Notre Dame and Georgetown are actually under-ranked by US News because their peer ranking drags them down.
 

Irish Houstonian

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You and I may not have a clue but Irishroo does.


As for U.S. News, according to their own article on their methodology, Academic Reputation is 22.5% of the rating. It's accomplished by Peer Assessment not by U.S. News staff.

I tend to agree that these kids are getting a great education, but isn't it just a bit of a stretch to say that a high U.S. News ranking means all majors in that school are rigorous, just because 22.5% of the ranking is "intangible" "academic reputation"?
 

irishfanjho15

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I tend to agree that these kids are getting a great education, but isn't it just a bit of a stretch to say that a high U.S. News ranking means all majors in that school are rigorous, just because 22.5% of the ranking is "intangible" "academic reputation"?

And isn't it a stretch to call major academic degree programs a joke with little to no personal and/or professional knowledge of the inter-workings of said programs?

You get my point.

The reason this thread is still going is because a couple of shock and awe posters decided to christen themselves as the Czars of American Academic Major Validity on IE today.

By the way, what exactly is rigorous and/or rigorous enough to be considered acceptable?

*I'm not taking a shot at you Houstonian, I'm just saying we're talking about things that cannot be quantified. At least cannot be in any set of empirical data that all could agree on that would allow us to come to any consensus on whether said major was or was not a 'joke'. Or if said major is or is not rigorous enough for some mythical life championship. The issue is, and continues to be on this site, that a select few people are such negative posters that they cannot physically be on this site without spewing their crap about anything and everything*
 
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BGIF

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From the Mendoza College of Business website

Facts At A Glance


MANAGEMENT (includes Consulting, Entrepeneurship, and ITM concentrations)

Bloomberg Businessweek ranked the Notre Dame*Ethics program No. 1 in its 2013 ranking of undergraduate specialty programs.

The undergraduate management department is ranked No.10, U.S. News and World Report, America's Best Colleges 2014*



COLLEGE RANKINGS AND AWARDS

UNDERGRADUATE RANKINGS:


Bloomberg Businessweek Undergraduate Programs Ranking (2013)
#1 among the nation's top undergraduate business schools
Bloomberg Businessweek Undergraduate Specialty Program Rankings (2013)
#1 among the nation's top undergraduate ethics programs
#2 among the nation's top undergraduate accountancy programs
#4 among the nation's top undergraduate finance programs
#4 among the nation's top undergraduate information systems programs
#5 among the nation's top undergraduate sustainability programs
#7 among the nation's top undergraduate business law programs
#9 among the nation's top undergraduate macroeconomics programs
#9 among the nation's top undergraduate microeconomics programs
U.S. News & World Report - America's Best Colleges 2014 (Undergraduate)
#10 of the best undergraduate business programs
 

irishpat183

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Who the hell said anything about business degress not being valuable?

And who said anything about ND degrees, in general, not being valuable or a "joke" (at least I never did)?


ND degrees are valuable. No ****. I don't think anyone is disputing that. The fact that a psych degree comes from ND...doesn't elevate the entire course of study and automatically make it some valuble sought after degree. It's still psych, and the real world still doesn't give a ****.


And when it comes to liberal arts degrees...Again, I have FACTS on my side. Show me where companies are running to hire Anthropolgy majors. Or history majors? Or Psych majors? There is a reason that those degrees have CONSISTANTLY been labled some of the most worthless degrees. That's not Irishpat talking...that's our economy.


End of story.
 

irishfanjho15

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Who the hell said anything about business degress not being valuable?

And who said anything about ND degrees, in general, not being valuable or a "joke" (at least I never did)?


ND degrees are valuable. No ****. I don't think anyone is disputing that. The fact that a psych degree comes from ND...doesn't elevate the entire course of study and automatically make it some valuble sought after degree. It's still psych, and the real world still doesn't give a ****.


And when it comes to liberal arts degrees...Again, I have FACTS on my side. Show me where companies are running to hire Anthropolgy majors. Or history majors? Or Psych majors? There is a reason that those degrees have CONSISTANTLY been labled some of the most worthless degrees. That's not Irishpat talking...that's our economy.


End of story.

It's CONSISTENTLY.

I also don't know many people in those fields that are only getting undergraduate degrees. The problem is you consistently (see how I spelled that?) act like saying a degree in a certain field is worthless is just 'the way it is' when you do not know anything about said programs on a personal or professional level. Nor do you know what any specific student's reasoning is behind such a major choice. The work people put into their degrees is not worthless, nor is the time and efforts by the professors, the academic administrators, and the school as a whole. You are going out of your way to try and offend people while doing it under the guise of "well I have facts" and the "economy" this and that. Some people like to study what they like to study for reasons other than money. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you can support yourself then fine, if not that's your problem. Again, you can have an opinion just stop being an elitist douche while you deliver it.
 
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Cackalacky

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The true value of an education should not be based on $$$$$$. This is a failure of Capitalism economic systems. Humanity is better for arts, philosophies, sociology etc yet there is not a large market for those unless money can be made and shareholders created from it.
 

Jason Pham

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Who the hell said anything about business degress not being valuable?

And who said anything about ND degrees, in general, not being valuable or a "joke" (at least I never did)?

The business discussion is in response to a remark by irishroo about the business school majors. It's just a quick look to see who is being quoted and to whom a post is addressing, man.

ND degrees are valuable. No ****. I don't think anyone is disputing that. The fact that a psych degree comes from ND...doesn't elevate the entire course of study and automatically make it some valuble sought after degree. It's still psych, and the real world still doesn't give a ****.

And when it comes to liberal arts degrees...Again, I have FACTS on my side. Show me where companies are running to hire Anthropolgy majors. Or history majors? Or Psych majors? There is a reason that those degrees have CONSISTANTLY been labled some of the most worthless degrees. That's not Irishpat talking...that's our economy.

End of story.

If you can't be bothered to see who is being quoted in posts, neither do you seem to care to actually read what we're saying. We're not arguing that the average history major is going to get a payoff worth the cost of the degree. What we're responding to is your argument that Notre Dame football players studying a liberal art is no better than a kinesiology student from any other university, when a student of the liberal arts from a top university is clearly in a position to do well after graduation whereas I cannot say the same for the latter student.

Recapped, for your convenience:
Your first argument: ND liberal arts student = or < Random kinesiology student
Our response: Actually, ND liberal arts grads do quite well for themselves
Your second argument: Actually, liberal arts grads generally tend not to do well for themselves

Do you see how your second argument is not at all responsive? Nobody is disagreeing with the second argument, we're saying that it isn't applicable to your original argument. And you seem to be reading that we think an anthropology major from an average school has it made, when we're actually saying an anthropology major from Notre Dame will probably do better than fine.
 

stlnd01

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And when it comes to liberal arts degrees...Again, I have FACTS on my side. Show me where companies are running to hire Anthropolgy majors. Or history majors? Or Psych majors? There is a reason that those degrees have CONSISTANTLY been labled some of the most worthless degrees. That's not Irishpat talking...that's our economy.

Go to a job fair at a Top 50 university. You'll see plenty of people lined up to hire liberal arts majors.
You think the big banks, consulting firms, federal intelligence/law enforcement, or Fortune 500 companies filling non-technical jobs really care if you majored in management or in English? They don't. They'll have to train you regardless.
They want to know that you know how to think, communicate, analyze information. That you're motivated. That's what you learn in Arts & Letters at Notre Dame. Engineering and science majors probably earn more over the long run, but I don't know anyone who went to Notre Dame who's waiting tables right now like your brother-in-law.
 

irishpat183

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Go to a job fair at a Top 50 university. You'll see plenty of people lined up to hire liberal arts majors.
You think the big banks, consulting firms, federal intelligence/law enforcement, or Fortune 500 companies filling non-technical jobs really care if you majored in management or in English? They don't. They'll have to train you regardless.
They want to know that you know how to think, communicate, analyze information. That you're motivated. That's what you learn in Arts & Letters at Notre Dame. Engineering and science majors probably earn more over the long run, but I don't know anyone who went to Notre Dame who's waiting tables right now like your brother-in-law.

Your opinions mean nothing. Again, check the facts and who is getting hired.
 

stlnd01

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Your opinions mean nothing. Again, check the facts and who is getting hired.

Six months after graduation, 4 percent of Arts and Letters graduates in Notre Dame's Class of 2012 were still seeking work. So 96% are not unemployed. In this economy, that's pretty good.
https://al.nd.edu/about/our-alums/after-graduation/

Yes, I know, you'll say that 31 percent are in grad school, and 18 percent are doing service work. But that's not a bad thing.
About one-third of all bachelor's degree earners go on to get an advanced degree, it's probably higher for Notre Dame alums. They're just doing it right away. And the service workers, by and large, wind up doing lots of good and interesting things, not to mention making the world a better place. And they're doing that by choice.
Also, on an anectodal side note, of my close friends from Notre Dame, the one who is most financially successful today - 12 years out of school - was a history major who was still unemployed six months after graduation. He's almost alone among my close friends in not going to grad school at some point either. Your job at age 23 is not the end-all and be-all.
 
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kmoose

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And when it comes to liberal arts degrees...Again, I have FACTS on my side. Show me where companies are running to hire Anthropolgy majors. Or history majors? Or Psych majors? There is a reason that those degrees have CONSISTANTLY been labled some of the most worthless degrees. That's not Irishpat talking...that's our economy.


End of story.

Why do you insist on arguing the value of a specific degree, when the subject at hand was the amount of work that goes into getting the ND degrees, compared to the (lack of) effort required to receive some degrees at Michigan?
 

Kaneyoufeelit

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Why do you insist on arguing the value of a specific degree, when the subject at hand was the amount of work that goes into getting the ND degrees, compared to the (lack of) effort required to receive some degrees at Michigan?

You don't say?

Do you think there is any chance Pat just likes to be a prick?
 

NDinL.A.

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You don't say?

Do you think there is any chance Pat just likes to be a prick?

Haha, only Pat can enter a discussion, get absolutely smoked, ignore most of the posts, and then declare victory.

Pat, you've had some doozies, but this is perhaps your worst. Sometimes its OK to admit that you are woefully wrong. Or at least read some more posts before arguing.
 
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