Sherm Sticky
The Prophet
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Just opened this thread...but what does any of this Rees as a top 25 QB have to do with Longo and the team being slow?
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Pachall? I disagree strongly lol
Kelly of ASU? I don't know why everyone is all about this guy... he impressed me 0% against Wiscy Saturday night.
Hackenberg? He's going to be a stud and is playing well, but he's not quite there yet.
Renner? Tommy actually deals with pressure pretty well, Renner folds like a lawn chair.
Goff? Same as Hackenberg, he's one of the studs of the future, but he's not there yet.
Also, I don't know why this is even a debate at the moment... Tommy is the farthest thing from the problems this team is having right now.
EDIT: Arguments could be made for Mannion at Oregon State and Cato at Marshall... but if these guys played against NDs schedule, I wouldn't bet on them having the success Tommy does.
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Considering how stupid this thread's premise was, I thought it was being re-purposed as a catch-all for everyone's BS.
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I'll show you the connection that you seem to be missing.
Reesus could be a Top 5 QB but Longo isn't helping and might be intentionally be holding him back. Why is that you may ask?
Longo and Lucifer. They both start with the letter L.... I don't know why more posters haven't figured this out and if you don't believe me. Look at the other player Longo is hurting...
Mathias Farley. Which sounds a lot like Bob Marley who was all about "One Love".......
IrishJayhawk
Rock Chalk
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*Pejorative comment about another poster on this site.*
Rack Em
Community Bod
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Cackalacky
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And it grows from the ground #reesusisrisen
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You typically make rational statements, but you're off base. You don't teach speed or athleticism. You are born with it. The training staff is responsible for fine tuning the speed and athleticism. They can increase speed slightly, but they can't make a slow person fast. If you feel the team is slow (I don't) then blame the staff for recruiting the wrong kids.
Booslum31
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I agree with this. You are stuck with your speed. Nuttin you can do about it. I keep coming back and reading this thread and it keeps bugging the Shat out of me. I'm out on this one.
BleedBlueGold
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I hope someone neg-repped Kuehnja for starting this ridiculous thread. Longo must go? Give me a break, dude. Paul Longo is one of the main reasons this team continues to win in November. Not to mention that he is one of BK's right hand men that can be around the players when the other coaches can't. This team is stronger, bigger, faster, and more durable because of Longo, not in spite of him.
What a joke of a thread. This team is 14-2 over the last 16 games and people are wanting to toss Chuck, Bob, and Longo to the curb. (Note: I've had my opinions about the offense, but no one should be saying so-and-so "should go.")
What a joke of a thread. This team is 14-2 over the last 16 games and people are wanting to toss Chuck, Bob, and Longo to the curb. (Note: I've had my opinions about the offense, but no one should be saying so-and-so "should go.")
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koonja
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Not a premise. A premise is a claim that supports a claim. This thread is a question, look at the title.
We've beat one ranked team in the past 3 years in the month of November. It was Utah, who just came off of an absolute beating the week before and finished the season unranked.
I'm asking how the S/C coach is judged? So far, no one has given an answer, and maybe that's because it's such a behind the scenes position. To say 'Longo is the best in the country and you're wrong' is OK, but why?
People have been hammering Martin/Kelly/Diaco the last few games. If you want me neg repped because I asked what people's thoughts are on the S/C coach, you have an anger issue.
If someone can objectively discuss why questioning Longo's progress is way over the line considering the talent we bring in, please explain it to me, but drop the 'I know it all and you're dumb for asking' narrow minded attitude. If he's the best S/C coach we can get, explain why you think so. Or just don't post in this thread.
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palinurus
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I find it amazing how upset people get over a guy starting a non-offensive thread. This is a chat room (or whatever it technically is) and if a guy wants to start a discussion, and it doesn't violate community rules, then I think it's a little disturbing for people to launch personal attacks on the OP.
I am not saying (a) people shouldn't challenge the OP if they disagree, and do so in strong and lively, even bare-knuckled, substantive terms or that (b) I agree with the OP in his implied view. But, geez, something is a little disturbing when guys start name calling etc. because they don't like the topic or implication of a thread. Not saying I would ban the attackers, or that it's not THEIR right to criticize the OP, but I think it's odd. I prefer the humorous mocking by those who want to make light of the thread; it's much more in the spirit of such a page, but it allows the convo to continue. Kudos to the Mods, at least, for letting stuff go and not being oversensitive control freaks.
I am not saying (a) people shouldn't challenge the OP if they disagree, and do so in strong and lively, even bare-knuckled, substantive terms or that (b) I agree with the OP in his implied view. But, geez, something is a little disturbing when guys start name calling etc. because they don't like the topic or implication of a thread. Not saying I would ban the attackers, or that it's not THEIR right to criticize the OP, but I think it's odd. I prefer the humorous mocking by those who want to make light of the thread; it's much more in the spirit of such a page, but it allows the convo to continue. Kudos to the Mods, at least, for letting stuff go and not being oversensitive control freaks.
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pkt77242
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You did not ask how we should judge our S/C coach. You asked if he should be fired and then proceeded to talk about speed which isn't something you can really change. Does that about sum it up? If we were getting blown off the ball, we look out of shape (Tuitt I am looking at you), or players are bulking up too much so they are slowing down or we are having too many injuries then maybe I could understand the issue. Maybe next time you start a thread you should be more specific about the question you want answered.
irishpat183
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Evolution. LOL
palinurus
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What's interesting, substantively, about this issue is that we've had multiple posters take opposite sides on whether a S&C coach can improve "speed" and "athleticism." (I think we all agree he can improve "strength and conditioning.") I'm curious whether this is a genuine debate in the field, or if there is an actual professional consensus.
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Cackalacky
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Group think and cognitive biases.
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koonja
Guest
You're right, but I was drinking and the rhyming title sounded good. Plus I can't really give my point of view in the title, it'd be way too long.
We're bringing in top level talent ever since Kelly's 2nd year here. And I've probably said 'speed' in this thread, but what I really mean is 'athleticism'. Javarvis Jones for Georgia last year was not speedy, but extremely athletic, and if you didn't know his 40-time, you'd say he was very athletic.
We have some players who are very athletic (Freshman RBs, DD, Russel, TJ Jones, Chris Brown, etc.) but overall, we are not a fast team.
And I keep making the point that this shows most on special teams, because everyone plays special teams. When's the last time we've had a great return/coverage team? When's the last time we've even made a big hit on special teams? Special teams is huge in CFB, and we never field an athletic ST, IMO.
If you watch Vanderbilt, A/M, Wisconsin, Bama, Ole Miss, Oregon, Clemson, FSU, Georgia, OSU, South Carolina, Oklahoma State, etc on special teams, their team flies around much more than ours do/have in the past few years. And half of the teams I've mentioned do not recruit the players we can.
You can't put your finger on athleticism, you really can't measure it unless you think the 40-yard dash sums up athleticism. I do not believe that's true (Jarvis Jones example). But it's kind of like the government's definition of porn. You don't know what to call it, but you know it when you see it. When I watched Ole Miss/Vandy, you could see athleticism all over the field, especially on special teams.
However, special teams is not the only place you can see team-wide athleticism. At the point of the game when Bama was down 14 to A/M last weekend, they had already played 23 players on defense. That's how athletic and well coached their backups are, that they went all of the way to the 3rd string at one position in the 1st quarter, and you can't even tell because they have great team-wide athleticism. We could never do that.
Beyond special teams, our defense (outside of the CB position) is not athletic. On offense, we have a lot of individual talent with DD/ Chris Brown/ TJ, so I have no complaints there.
wizards8507
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It wouldn't be too hard to test the theory. Simply chart out the 40-yard dash time of recruits coming out of high school. Then compare those times to the same individuals four or five years later at the NFL combine. Sort by program, and then analyze whether programs like Alabama, Oregon, etc. saw markedly larger increases in player speed than ND.
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Cackalacky
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PANDFAN
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this debate is based only on opinion and is extremely tough to even prove as a whole as there is so many factors that outside of Longo's ability/teaching such as the player's determination and dedication to the training. we can look at did x player improve on their reps/40 time/shuttle time etc those are some determining factors but to say its 100% longo's fault or help, it can only be known by the individual player as they know how much of an effort they have put fourth.
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koonja
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Right, but then you'd be saying speed = athleticism. Football is tougher, because LBs/DE never run 40 yards, but a DE/LB with a bad 40-time can still move well in a 10 yard radius.
I'm not saying I'm right. But look at teams like OK St., Wisconsin, Vandy, even Purdue I was impressed with, and think they are really getting the most out of their athletes.
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BleedBlueGold
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If this is what you wanted discussed, then this is what you should have specified in the thread title. Not "We are slow, Longo must go" which suggests you feel he should be fired.
If you want to see the main difference with Longo compared to past ND S/C coaches, look at the weight loss and W/L records in November during the CW years and compare those numbers to BK's years. Longo + the team dietician have GREATLY IMPROVED the overall health and strength of this team.
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koonja
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You're conveniently missing a character that makes a big difference, that being the '?'.
We have beaten one ranked team in November in the last 3 years (could be further back too, but I only checked 3 years). Our November is our easiest stretch. That one ranked team we did beat was Utah who just came off of a 40 point beating and finished unranked.
Our November opponents:
2010: Utah, USC, Army (all unranked)
2011: Wake Forest, Maryland, Boston College, Stanford (loss), all unranked besided Stanford.
2012: Pittsburg, Boston College, Wake Forest, USC (all unranked).
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