GoIrish41
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Yet still you are spending your Saturday trying to convince me that I'm wrong. huh
George Zimmerman Trial
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Yet still you are spending your Saturday trying to convince me that I'm wrong. huh
Booslum31
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I was wondering if anyone actually changed their stance on this case based on what they have read here?
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Bogtrotter07
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Sort of. I thought GZ was guilty of murder and would be convicted. I was really wrong on both counts. Going through FL law, or lack thereof, I don't see any way to convict someone who follows the same kind of plan, of anything. Even if it was premeditated. I am not suggesting that it was in this case.
GoIrish41
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I have learned a lot about the law surrounding this topic on this thread, and while I think the verdict is absolutley morally outrageous, I have come to realize the elements of the law that permitted the verdict to go the way it did. Guys like IrishHoustonian provided a lot of good insight into the law that I had not known before. That said, I still do not believe a word of Zimmerman's story.
NDinL.A.
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247...I won't quote your post and respond because we will never agree and we'll just go in circles. I will say that I never out words in your mouth; they came from your mouth and your mouth alone. If you don't want to own up to them then that's on you.
Like I said, I basically raised one already, and I have 12 years of teaching experience in the ghetto, and 8 more years of working with kids in the ghetto through h.s. and college. I know good parents and I know horrible parents. I laugh at you and your boy bogs - so much assumption in this thread and my assumption (which isn't even close to being hard to conclude) gets jumped on??? Whatever man.
Finally, as far as the company I keep, nice assumption. Talking about sounding like an ***. And aside from friends and family, it's all over the place. Facebook, news, blogs, websites, etc etc etc. I might be the only one with the stones to say it on this site (but reps from many and a timely PM tell me ,any others feel this way), but it's out there. Not on me that you're too sheltered to hear it.
Like I said, I basically raised one already, and I have 12 years of teaching experience in the ghetto, and 8 more years of working with kids in the ghetto through h.s. and college. I know good parents and I know horrible parents. I laugh at you and your boy bogs - so much assumption in this thread and my assumption (which isn't even close to being hard to conclude) gets jumped on??? Whatever man.
Finally, as far as the company I keep, nice assumption. Talking about sounding like an ***. And aside from friends and family, it's all over the place. Facebook, news, blogs, websites, etc etc etc. I might be the only one with the stones to say it on this site (but reps from many and a timely PM tell me ,any others feel this way), but it's out there. Not on me that you're too sheltered to hear it.
NDinL.A.
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Dude, you are the epitome of a blowhard. You constantly take personal shots at people and then play the innocent. Grow the hell up.
LOL at you. 247 got personal with it from the jump; he wasn't even ionvolved and took a personal shot at me, but you're too small headed to see it. Embarrassing. Read more. Post less. Actually, read closer, and post a lot less.
You've trashed this thread PLENTY.
And you say them as if they are fact. Nice try. "It would take an idiot to say they know what's in someone's head." And yet you did it this entire thread. Your hypocrisy on this thread knows no bounds.
B-b-b-b-b-but, personal attack! How dare you sir!!!
Sound familiar?
I'm done with this thread. My point was made.Sorry your bleeding heart doesn't agree, but cry me a damn river.
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NDWorld247
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Agreed. I appreciate you taking the high road instead of digging yourself a bigger hole. And, re: the other issue, go back and read the debate we had. You'll see exactly what I'm talking about. My invitation stands.
You may know horrible parents, but you literally know nothing about Tracy Martin and Sybrina Fulton's ability to parent. Your statements that they're horrible parents is the definition of ignorant.
And you're right, a lot of assumptions being thrown around in this thread. I've made one or two. But you're the only one that's said Trayvon's parents were HORRIBLE. One or two people acknowledged this asinine statement, but the rest just laughed at your foolishness and moved on. After the 3rd time, I had enough and decided to call you out on it.
I've followed the case pretty closely and have not heard this one time outside of your rants and the crazy preacher video from the other day. Instead of calling me sheltered, why not post links to illustrate the company you're in on this issue? I've googled it and found one whack job blog.
And I'll issue a challenge to all of those "stoneless" reppers out there. Grow a pair and agree with LA publicly....
connor_in
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HOMEWORK ASSIGNMENT
What do YOU think happened that night...step by step
I put this out there because most people seem to be coming from different ideas of what happened to draw the conclusions they have about the incident. I think this would clear up some confusion. Also I am curious as to how many different course of events people come up with based on the same series of facts and statements out there.
What do YOU think happened that night...step by step
I put this out there because most people seem to be coming from different ideas of what happened to draw the conclusions they have about the incident. I think this would clear up some confusion. Also I am curious as to how many different course of events people come up with based on the same series of facts and statements out there.
GoIrish41
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I offered my step-by-step narrative of what I think happened a couple of weeks ago and haven't seen anyone else do the same. I too would be interested in seeing what others thought happened that night. Good idea connor.
kmoose
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NDWorld247
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I essentially believe Zimmerman's story with the exception that he didn't keep looking for Martin between the houses. I think he kept looking for a minute or so after he hung up with the dispatcher to see if he could spot Martin. There's about a 1:30-2:00 minute gap between the end of his 911 call and the fight starting. I think he did this because he knew it would be too late to catch him by the time the police arrived. I don't really fault any of Zimmerman's actions until this point. He should have retreated to his car as he agreed to when instructed.
I think Martin had ample time to get home but instead saw Zimmerman looking for him and decided to confront him. I think after a brief verbal confrontation, Martin thought he was being disrespected and saw an easy target to beat up. I believe Zimmerman was getting beat up and feared for his life. It was dark, he was getting his butt whooped, and I think he envisioned his life being taken by his own gun and beat Martin to it.
I will add, as I've previously hypothesized, I think that Martin smoked a blunt on his way home from the store and was high during this altercation. That's not really important other than to frame the state of mind Martin was in (and that Zimmerman's assertion that Martin was high is likely, in my mind, accurate). Zimmerman was not high and also made a poor decision to keep following.
GoIrish41
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at what point do you think Zimmerman pulled the gun out? Do you believe it was when Martin was on top of him beating the crap out of him? If so, can you walk me through your thoughts on how, physically, he was able to get to the gun that was holstered inside his pants, on his back hip, under a couple layers of clothing, Martin's leg blocking access, and getting the snot knocked out of him, his hand over his mouth (yet it was Zimmerman screaming), and head pounded into the sidewalk? I haven't heard anyone give an account of that that made any sense to me. Thanks.
NDWorld247
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I think he pulled it out when Martin was on top of him.
Well, I believe that Zimmerman's shirt, jacket, whatever, rode up on him, so that answers the 'couple layers of clothing' question. I think it was physically possible to slide his hand between Martin's leg and his hip, if that's where Martin's skinny leg was positioned. Martin was 5'11", 158 pounds with what I imagine are really skinny legs. Even if he's on top beating you, it wouldn't be hard to create some space between your gun and his leg/ankle.
The hardest part is to explain how he did it while getting beat up. If it was positioned on his right back hip, Zimmerman would have needed to twist his body to the left. He could have shielded his head with his left hand while reaching to his right hip. He probably opened himself up for some shots to the face, but in the moment, that's a small price to pay if you think your life is in danger.
I think you're suggesting it was physically impossible when it's really not that hard to believe.
GoIrish41
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If he put his hand down between his hip and Martin's leg, it would have further restricted the dexterity in his wrist and hand and made it even more improbable that he could have grabbed the gun -- especially given his contention that Martin (who was in a dominant position, to say the least) was not only aware of the gun (which was hidden under all those layers of clothing up until the fight began) but also going for the gun, presumably at the same time he was punching, covering the mouth of, and slamming Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. I find it highly improbable that if Martin would have wanted to get that gun under those circumstances he wouldn't have been able to get it, or at a very minimum touch it (there were no prints or DNA from Martin on the gun). But, I'll put that all aside and for the sake of this discussion, I'll give you all of that. He put his hand under Martins' leg was somehow able to twist about and pull the gun out and position it in his hand in such a way as to be ready to fire. Why not just point the gun at Martin's back and pull the trigger? That would be the quickest way to end the brutal life-threatening beating he was taking, but that isn't what he did. He decided to drag the gun back through the improbably path between Martin's leg and his body and aim it into the chest of Martin. He did all this while Martin was aware of the gun and going for it himself. If we are to believe this is how it played out, we must believe that Martin didn't squeeze his legs together to restrict Zimmerman's ability to shoot the gun. We must believe that somehow, Zimmerman was able, while he was getting the crap beat out of him, to somehow evade Martin's attempts to take the gun away from him. I'm not saying all of that is impossible, but I am saying that it is highly improbable.
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NDWorld247
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I understand you've taken the stance that you think Zimmerman's story is BS and you provided a narrative that was thought provoking, much more so and better than what the prosecution provided.
I doubt it happened exactly as Zimmerman said. As I said, I don't believe him when he says he was walking back to his car. Also, a part that I left out is I also don't believe Martin was aware of the gun. I think Zimmerman added that detail. I think Zimmerman was able to get ahold of his gun and stick it in Martin chest without Martin realizing it.
I know it's going to take a Herculean effort to convince you of my response to Connor's question and I'm just not interested in that undertaking. I don't have an issue with anyone that thinks Zimmerman was the aggressor, that's just not my opinion.
GoIrish41
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In your second paragraph, you say that you agree that Zimmerman added the detail about Martin going for the gun (a huge detail). At the end of the day, that is the crux of my argument -- that he added details that helped him to improve his chances at a solid self defense claim. It doesn't matter if it is one detail or another, the fact that he did that at all suggests he was lying to help himself and caused me to be sceptical about everything that he said. I don't have the energy to walk through this whole thing again, so I'm right there with ya on that. Thanks for providing your thoughts.
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Bogtrotter07
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So let me get this right. You come to this thread, have a temper tantrum and take off. You rant and rave, then your work is done, you have protected truth, justice, and the American way! Give me a break.
You are actually talking about yourself when you accuse others of these many things you routinely do in your diatribes. You live in this world separate from reality where you are, I don't know, a policeman, and super-hero, dispensing justice. After all, only you have the power, and the authority! In reality you pick on others in the safety of anonymity of the internet.
The only time that I have ever heard that you have been faced with putting your @ss on the line, with this years Michigan game, you are afraid to even wear your colors to the game. And you blamed your irrational fear on your family! Lots of us have wives and/or kids. But we don't use that as an excuse to act like pussies.
Tough on the internet, a real petunia in person. It really does remind me of Zimmerman. I always believed he was pi$sed in his car, "in pursuit of the 'suspect'." You are the moral and factual judge of IE, right? Imagining himself to be tough, Zimmerman gets out of his car a real 'gunslinger' with his little flashlight and his Kel Tec PF-9, and then walks into a real shiit-kicking. Why? Because he was a pansy that imagined himself as a tough guy too. In his case his CCP and Kel Tec PF-9 kept him safe, in your case, internet anonymity. When in reality the both of you are just poor character little guys that have to rely too much on it to survive.
You make things up, act disgracefully, call people names, criticize them because they get along, and act in otherwise atrocious fashion. Hell, everyone remembers your mike drop, most didn't see your filthy emails to a number of users at and around the same time. Everyone saw your hand in the unfair treatment of two members Wooly and HCTI. You started that all.
And you keep it going with HCTI, like a person totally lacking a brain, you continually instigate things with him and a few other users. You even called one user's wife, that refused to fold to your tantrums, a heifer. I couldn't believe that. When has anyone ever criticized your family? Who would make a family member an issue by attacking them? Believe me when I say I remember these things because they are shocking, not because I give a shiit about you. In fact, with all the trolls I have only seen three users that behaved (ever) in such a shocking manner.
I am glad you won't be around the thread anymore. (Wait a minute isn't that what you have accused me of? Hmmm!)
EDIT: I did lie apparently. I couldn't resist responding to such a sissified rendering of obnoxious bull shiit.
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Bogtrotter07
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As far as the attack, I believe that Zimmerman just as likely had the gun drawn. Any limp dick that forgets they have a gun, couldn't be trusted to get themselves dressed alone in the morning.
So if he had a gun and actually knew it, chickenshiit that he has revealed himself to be, he had it drawn before he walked in the dark. But he probably didn't have it ready or himself in a decent stance.
Now I believe Martin surprised him from behind, and Martin probably clocked him in the nose. This fits with everything that people say about how aggressive Martin was and what a dumbshiit Zimmerman was.
Then Martin, in an oh shiit moment realizes Zimmerman has a gun, and grabs for it. Because Zimmerman is an idiot, unprepared to shoot someone in reality, the gun isn't ready to fire. It isn't aimed, if Martin has it bent at the wrong angle, Zimmerman can't even pull the trigger, if his finger is even on the trigger.
Then the two of them fall to the ground and tussle for the gun. Since the gun is of central focus, one could gain and lose advantage of being on the top because neither is paying attention to that, just to controlling the gun. This would explain conflicting witness reports stating that both men were on top.
The screaming. Both men could have been screaming, because they now realize this is life and death. Both men think the other is a bad guy trying to kill him. This kind of adrenaline does funny things. There are two times a man screams real funny like, in a life and death struggle, and once he has been wounded badly, and not yet killed. The latter did not happen. But the former can result in wailing, crying, all kinds of non-characteristic screaming. This could explain why witnesses couldn't say for sure, picked both men, and it stopped with the gunshot.
It is a shame that the PA who cleaned the wound on Zimmerman's head didn't keep samples. What I saw looked like a number of scratches or cuts, not the pervasive abrasions of a concrete sidewalk. This would be consistent with Martin popping Zimmerman in the nose hard enough to knock him back into the branches of the "bush Martin must have been hiding behind."
So they are rolling around on the ground and Martin shoots him up from under his hoodie. No marks are on the hoodie, but it still is a close contact wound. Martin is dead instantly, and as Zimmerman forcefully stands up Martin's body rolls off, arms under.
So if he had a gun and actually knew it, chickenshiit that he has revealed himself to be, he had it drawn before he walked in the dark. But he probably didn't have it ready or himself in a decent stance.
Now I believe Martin surprised him from behind, and Martin probably clocked him in the nose. This fits with everything that people say about how aggressive Martin was and what a dumbshiit Zimmerman was.
Then Martin, in an oh shiit moment realizes Zimmerman has a gun, and grabs for it. Because Zimmerman is an idiot, unprepared to shoot someone in reality, the gun isn't ready to fire. It isn't aimed, if Martin has it bent at the wrong angle, Zimmerman can't even pull the trigger, if his finger is even on the trigger.
Then the two of them fall to the ground and tussle for the gun. Since the gun is of central focus, one could gain and lose advantage of being on the top because neither is paying attention to that, just to controlling the gun. This would explain conflicting witness reports stating that both men were on top.
The screaming. Both men could have been screaming, because they now realize this is life and death. Both men think the other is a bad guy trying to kill him. This kind of adrenaline does funny things. There are two times a man screams real funny like, in a life and death struggle, and once he has been wounded badly, and not yet killed. The latter did not happen. But the former can result in wailing, crying, all kinds of non-characteristic screaming. This could explain why witnesses couldn't say for sure, picked both men, and it stopped with the gunshot.
It is a shame that the PA who cleaned the wound on Zimmerman's head didn't keep samples. What I saw looked like a number of scratches or cuts, not the pervasive abrasions of a concrete sidewalk. This would be consistent with Martin popping Zimmerman in the nose hard enough to knock him back into the branches of the "bush Martin must have been hiding behind."
So they are rolling around on the ground and Martin shoots him up from under his hoodie. No marks are on the hoodie, but it still is a close contact wound. Martin is dead instantly, and as Zimmerman forcefully stands up Martin's body rolls off, arms under.
kmoose
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You mean other than the bullet hole and the powder burns described here?
George Zimmerman trial: Gunpowder marks at center of day's analyses by experts - Orlando Sentinel
In Lou I Trust
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Zimmerman was not armed with a Tec-9; it was a Kel Tec PF-9. Please get your facts straight before posting your garbage.
TDHeysus
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Excellent closing argument for the prosecution, but unfortunately all speculation unsupported by facts. If the prosecution had any facts to support such speculation, it would have presented the evidence. In the absence of evidence, the jury had no other choice but to find Zimmerman not guilty. The public outcry is based more upon one's personal experience with race relations than with the details of the Zimmerman-Martin case. We can be sure of very few things. There was a physical confrontation resulting in one gunshot and the death of Trayvon Martin. Other than the gunshot wound, George Zimmerman suffered most of the injuries. Trayvon Martin had minor injuries to a knuckle on his hand. One of them (no one knows for sure which one) was screaming for help moments before the gunshot. Various witnesses report either Zimmerman or Martin on top during the confrontation.
NDinL.A.
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OK, I see the gloves are off, so I'll have at it. Hmmmm....aren't you the loser who took his ball and ran home, quitting this site 'FOREVER!!!' because "how dare you members tell a woman she is wrong! You are chauvinists and I won't stand for it! I'm reporting you all to jpham and I am quitting!' Remember what I said to you? "See you soon!" You know how I knew you'd be back? Because losers like you with no lives ALWAYS come back to a site they 'quit'.
You've thrown multiple 'temper tantrums' and even 'quit' the site, but of course you came back. Difference between you and I is that I never lose control (LOL at the 'temper tantrum' when in fact I'm just laughing at you), and if I were to quit the site, I'd QUIT the site.
I've met several members of this site. Ask them about me. Had beers with several...even had one stay with me and my family for a game. I've met probably 40-50 members of ISD; I know one of their reporters very well and I've hung out with the other ones outside of ND football as well. No anonymity here. My pics are on the site as are my wife and my child. You can find me anytime you want. You though? Never seen your pic, know nothing about you but your fake superhero stories about chasing people out of stores and your 7 children you never spend time with (with 30 posts a day on this site alone, how could you?). So spare me with more of your bullshit.
I had a 'diatribe' against a set of parents who are set to be millionaires who did a HORRIBLE job parenting their children. Someone got personal with me for no reason, and of course you chimed in as well. I post maybe 2 times a day and rarely are they diatribes. (Seriously, I could go off on your misinformed posts all the time for the interest of the site I just laugh it off, considering how you PMS at the site of my name near your posts. The best one is your 'little birdie' bull crap about Kelly's contract. You could not be anymore wrong on that. It's actually quite pathetic.)
Wow...assuming and ignorance. Par for the course with you. First off, do you even know me, my story of growing up? Nope, so STFU with that. Unlke you, I don't lie to the site about my weapons and chasing women out of markets and all that b.s. But when my parents divorced, I lived in the projects and had to learn real fast how to take care of myself. I have no problem handling myself one on one. You're too pathetic to understand a mob mentality, which is what I've seen right in front of me at Raider and Dodger games to fans that have worn the other teams' unis. I'm stil going to the game in Irish gear after talking to enough people, but I had to be sure.
By the way old man, LOL at you pushing 60 years old and calling some a pussy, when you KNOW you will never meet me. If you met me you'd be singing a different story. Check yourself. And ever more funny when you invited yourself to a college birthday party that NOBODY wanted you ate. Hmmmmm, you wonder why jimmy never talked about that party again after you said you'd go? Newsflash...nobody wants an old man at a college party!!! Hell, I'm 38 and I wouldn't have gone, and because of athletics most of my friends in South Bend are in their mid-twenties. Wake the hell up.
First off, look in the mirror. You just described yourself. Difference is, I admit how I acted. I say it to anyone who wants to know what a complete and utter douche/blowhard you are. You're the only on this site who I genuinely dislike and wish had never joined this site.
2nd, LOTS of people saw what I wrote to you. YOU SENT IT TO THEM! What a 'man' you are. Of course, they didn't see the filth you sent me, nor the filth your girlfriend kisme sent me (completely unprovoked), because you kept that to yourselves, and I'm not a giant douche that sends PRIVATE messages to others.
HTCI knows what he did. And I never treated Wooly unfairly. But nice try.
You're just a special kind of stupid aren't you? HCTI responds to my posts and talks crap. Ask him yourself. I leave him the hell alone b/c he's liable to blow up at any moment (witness him going after a newbie just the other night because the newbie made a bad joke...even after the newbie apologized HCTI still stayed after him. Sure, great guy he is.)
Ummm, it was heffer, and it wasn't his wife, I don't even know that he's married or not. And get your facts straight you moron. He called my wife a prostitute (ask him) before family was even brought up. So yeah, after that, I called the girls he dates heffers. Sue me. I regret nothing but the fact that we got into it in the first place (started by him, continued by me); when someone calls your wife a prostitute, sure, you say some things in return. Which is what I did. You're too 'special' to follow along with that though...you just blindly stick your nose in anywhere like a little bitch that you are, not having a clue of what's really going on.
This isn't about TM and GM anymore, so I responded. You spread lies and bullshit, and I respond. If that makes me a liar, so be it. Considering last time YOU initiated PM's with me and started harassing me, then suddenly having a full mailbox where I couldn't send my response, I responded here. I know this bogs the thread down, but you made this thread trash LONG ago with your bleeding heart bullcrap and your incredible lies you keep spreading. And if the mods want to rightfully ban the both of us and 247 for getting personal, then at least this site is rid of the you, the biggest blowhard ever to grace this site.
(MAJOR props to kmoose for exposing you on your latest lie.)
Out.
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NDWorld247
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Can you stop saying I "got personal" with you? I inferred you were making an a$$ of yourself for assuming so many things about Trayvon's parents. In fact, this is exactly what I said:
I mean, is this "getting personal"? You said something really stupid. I called you out. Grow up.
GoIrish41
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You and I are very close on what we think happened -- especially the part about the gun being out from the beginning, which destroys Zimmerman's claim of self defense and makes him the guy who started the fight.
From the perspective of anyone who was not there, Zimmerman's story is also speculation unsupported by facts. At several points in his account we must make a giant leap of logic in order to believe him. The prosecution did a horrible job of presenting their case. If given a narrative like the one Bogs presented above and tying in key known facts from the timeline (calls to 911 and eyewitness testimony) they could have led jurors to a logical conclusion supported by facts in the case. They failed miserably in doing that and instead behaved as if they were the defense, introducing questions into the timeline and Zimmerman's account and then not providing an answer to those questions which could have connected the dots for the jury.
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Bogtrotter07
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Exactly. The power marks and bullet holes showed close proximity, but not contact! You have it exactly! Picture it, Zimmerman on the bottom, Martin over him leaning down with his back bent over and his face closer than his chest, trying to hold the gun away.
'Twas! That makes the point! That makes the picture complete!
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Bogtrotter07
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Oh my!
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You just came up with all kinds of small minded stuff.
Here is a random piece of your post. My comments followed your highlighted words. To say that about Martin's parents is judgmental and disturbed beyond words; NDWorld247 didn't get personal with you, it just points out the void between your view on the world and reality; The little birdie thing was an entirely different post, there were three, the contracts, the coaching staff, and the defensive strategy, as well as the offensive strategy (as usual, you don't remember it quite right). You can't even keep any fvcking thing straight; back to bold number one, that is some evil fvcking thinking that went into typing out that sentence. Which is why I even respond to you. The world if full of inadequate small minded men. Only a few of them show themselves to be as nasty as you.
So when I jump on this site I say some things just for effect, because it is so damned fun, because there are few consequences. If they don't care for it, almost everybody (else) ignores it. So, when you were going off on how bad and wrong I am and how nobody likes me, you were talking about the day Jimmy was crowing about having everyone at his birthday? And I said something to the effect, even me? Ha, ha, ha! That was more effective than I dreamed! I forgot about that, just though I was pulling his leg a little!
In reality, I can't go anywhere! I have all kind of constraints on my time. I didn't even make it to the Taste of Chicago or a single bluegrass festival this year! I love Jimmy as a poster and IE brother, but one thing we agree on is that wouldn't be our cup of tea. Wait a minute, you just said you wouldn't go, not that you didn't want to, HMMM! I don't have much of an interest re-exploring my late childhood. Anyone that believes stupid shiit like that deserves to get wrapped up in their self righteous bull shiit, and make a fool in front of the whole board! (Jimmy, my apologies to you, I was taking advantage of your good nature and upbringing, just trying to pull your leg!)
I am up for meeting any IE member I haven't, yet. I may be up for the SoCAL game, if my kids have a place they are willing to go for the weekend.
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