A Song of Ice and Fire (Spoilers! Only enter if you have read all books)

[gkIrish]

And they started playing "The Rains of Castamere".

"What the... that's Tywin Lannister's music!"

I assumed that was the song they were playing when Cat started freaking out on the show. No?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I assumed that was the song they were playing when Cat started freaking out on the show. No?

Correct.

The Rains of Castamere with Turkish and English lyrics [HD] - YouTube

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Seeing GreyRobb next episode will tug at my heart. I'm dying for some pie right now.

 

[mgriff]

Seeing GreyRobb next episode will tug at my heart. I'm dying for some pie right now.

I'm interested in seeing naked Michelle Fairley as well...

Seriously though I'm assuming they are doing UnCat since they made a point to show how Beric (The Lightning Lord in the Brotherhood Without Banners) was brought back by the Lord of Light's kiss.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Entertainment Weekly just published an article wherein Martin explains why he wrote the Red Wedding:

ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: How early in the process of writing the book series did you know you were gonna kill off Robb and Catelyn?

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

EW: I’m pretty sure I know the answer to this, but: Have you ever regretted the scene?

Martin: No. Not as a writer. It’s probably the most powerful scene in the books. It cost me some readers, but gained me many more. It’s going to be hard for me to watch it [on the show]. It’s going to be a tough night. Because I love these characters too. And in a TV show you get to know the actors. You’re also ending that relationship with an actor that you have affection for. Richard Madden and Michelle Fairley have done an amazing job.

Valar Trollghulis, indeed.

EW: What about the Red Wedding itself? Is that based on history too?

Martin: The Red Wedding is based on a couple real events from Scottish history. One was a case called The Black Dinner. The king of Scotland was fighting the Black Douglas clan. He reached out to make peace. He offered the young Earl of Douglas safe passage. He came to Edinburgh Castle and had a great feast. Then at the end of the feast, [the king's men] started pounding on a single drum. They brought out a covered plate and put it in front of the Earl and revealed it was the head of a black boar — the symbol of death. And as soon as he saw it, he knew what it meant. They dragged them out and put them to death in the courtyard. The larger instance was the Glencoe Massacre. Clan MacDonald stayed with the Campbell clan overnight and the laws of hospitality supposedly applied. But the Campbells arose and started butchering every MacDonald they could get their hands on. No matter how much I make up, there’s stuff in history that’s just as bad, or worse.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm interested in seeing naked Michelle Fairley as well...

Seriously though I'm assuming they are doing UnCat since they made a point to show how Beric (The Lightning Lord in the Brotherhood Without Banners) was brought back by the Lord of Light's kiss.

I was thinking about this after I read through ADWD... First, I started wondering if Jon Snow will get out of his assassination predicament by being given the kiss by Malisandre. Then I started wondering why they had Malisandre confront Thoros and Dondarrion in the show. Is it possible they showed Malisandre talking to Beric/Thoros about the fiery kiss to set up both Cat's resurrection and Jon Snow's resurrection by Malisandre much later?

 

[IrishHokie22]

Awesome sig, mgriff. It sorta creeps me out to look at it.

 

[mgriff]

Entertainment Weekhttp://www.irishenvy.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1009437ly just published an article wherein Martin explains why he wrote the Red Wedding:
Valar Trollghulis, indeed.

I saw that interview. It was pretty good and I love the fact that no one is safe. This is not your standard fantasy journey. It simply has to be more complicated than Dany coming over with her Dragons and defeating the Ice threat.

I was thinking about this after I read through ADWD... First, I started wondering if Jon Snow will get out of his assassination predicament by being given the kiss by Malisandre. Then I started wondering why they had Malisandre confront Thoros and Dondarrion in the show. Is it possible they showed Malisandre talking to Beric/Thoros about the fiery kiss to set up both Cat's resurrection and Jon Snow's resurrection by Malisandre much later?

That's certainly a possibility. Val might have something to say about that though, since everyone knows Jon keeps the Old Gods. This might lead to a showdown of some sort between Mel and Val.

Somewhat related theory, but your comment made my brain go in this direction. Some think that Val is some type of White priestess, in opposition to Mel. To be truthful I'm not very well versed on the theory but it in some way involves Shireen's greyscale and the Stone Men which dealt with him falling in the water, which caused Jon Connington (Griff) to contract the disease. It's fatal in adults and turns them into some type of walker. It draws on the White Walkers and goes into the Storm God, Drowned God, and some possible relations in the song along with the CotF(Earth). It's basically where those Heresy threads I'm always talking about are at. Sign In - A Forum of Ice and Fire

Awesome sig, mgriff. It sorta creeps me out to look at it.

Thanks man. Does it make you hungry at all? They are delicious, Wyman assured us...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That's certainly a possibility. Val might have something to say about that though, since everyone knows Jon keeps the Old Gods. This might lead to a showdown of some sort between Mel and Val.

Somewhat related theory, but your comment made my brain go in this direction. Some think that Val is some type of White priestess, in opposition to Mel. To be truthful I'm not very well versed on the theory but it in some way involves Shireen's greyscale and the Stone Men which dealt with him falling in the water, which caused Jon Connington (Griff) to contract the disease. It's fatal in adults and turns them into some type of walker. It draws on the White Walkers and goes into the Storm God, Drowned God, and some possible relations in the song along with the CotF(Earth). It's basically where those Heresy threads I'm always talking about are at. Sign In - A Forum of Ice and Fire

Can we get a good link for this theory? I'd like to read it.

Thanks man. Does it make you hungry at all? They are delicious, Wyman assured us...

Speaking of fat Mermen, did you see Wendel Manderly sitting next to the Blackfish?

 

[mgriff]

Can we get a good link for this theory? I'd like to read it.



Speaking of fat Mermen, did you see Wendel Manderly sitting next to the Blackfish?

Do you think I could miss a Merman with a mustache? Not walrusy enough for me but yeah I saw him! Here's him dead.

“I know about the promise,” ….“Maester Theomore, tell them! A thousand years before the Conquest, a promise was made, and oaths were sworn in the Wolf's Den before the Old Gods and the New. When we were sore beset and friendless, hounded from our homes and in peril of our lives, the wolves took us in and nourished us and protected us against our enemies. The city is built upon the land they gave us. In return we swore that we should always be their men. Stark men!”

-Wylla Manderly

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”

-Wyman Manderly

 

[mgriff]

I've just noticed that my previous post leads in nicely to my signature...

Also Whiskeyjack that link at the end of my post should lead to Heresy 56, and the discussion starts on the first page. Here's another Sign In - A Forum of Ice and Fire

I figured it out. Since that site has been getting swamped for years after major events, they are now requiring you sign in to view the forums, so unregistered users don't crash it for the contributors. IE should look into something like that for when we get trolled.

So if you're not seeing the page, you'll have to make an account.

Also Brendan Gleeson for Wyman Manderly

 

[ACamp1900]

Clan MacDonald stayed with the Campbell clan overnight and the laws of hospitality supposedly applied. But the Campbells arose and started butchering every MacDonald they could get their hands on. No matter how much I make up, there’s stuff in history that’s just as bad, or worse.

Pretty cool here... I gtrew up on stories from our family history and tales of Scotland in general... this was one of the more oft told... for some reason my Dad just loves the story and has our ancestors doing more than 'butchering'... that'll learn those McDonald's I guess.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

“Foes and false friends are all around me, Lord Davos. They infest my city like roaches, and at night I feel them crawling over me.” The fat man’s fingers coiled into a fist, and all his chins trembled. “My son Wendel came to the Twins a guest. He ate Lord Walder’s bread and salt, and hung his sword upon the wall to feast with his friends. And they murdered him. Murdered, I say, and may the Freys choke upon their fables. I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter…but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”

-Wyman Manderly

Best quote in the novels. Gives me goosebumps.

 

[mgriff]

Best quote in the novels. Gives me goosebumps.

Wylla's was the same for me because she stuck up for the Starks in front of everyone, even when Wyman was berating Davos and playing the part of Stark hater.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

There is a promo pic of GreyRobb from the next episode. It will be one of the most disturbing things ever shown on television.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

It's going to be so grest when Jon ends up coming back as the Night's King and leads The Others.

 

[mgriff]

That depends on if he actually died, which I don't buy. He is the one person who bridges Ice and Fire. If he's brought back we know GRRM doesn't like a lack of consequence. Anyone who is brought back loses some of who they once were, and they are never the same person. If Jon actually dies and is brought back I can see him being the King of Winter, but I really don't believe that. Also, it couldn't be Mel who brings him back, it would have to be Val. He'll then have Rhollor's fire in him, which most likely complicates matters since the Great Other and Rhollor have been warring in an endless struggle.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So, it seems GRRM modeled aSoIaF on Norse mythology, and this is all leading up to Ragnarok. If you're into fan theories, this is a must-read article. Mind-blowing stuff.

 

[Emcee77]

So, it seems GRRM modeled aSoIaF on Norse mythology, and this is all leading up to Ragnarok. If you're into fan theories, this is a must-read article. Mind-blowing stuff.

Man, that's fascinating. I don't buy the theory wholesale but there's more than enough there to demonstrate the debt Martin owes to Norse mythology and suggest where Martin might be heading. Very enlightening.

 

[phillyirish]

I can definitely see this inspiring GRRM, especially leading up to one final battle but I highly doubt it is a straight up parallel. Many things inspire ASOIAF most notably the war of the roses and all kind of various mythology (I think I even read someone comparing it to Czeck or Slavik mythology).

 

[Emcee77]

I can definitely see this inspiring GRRM, especially leading up to one final battle but I highly doubt it is a straight up parallel. Many things inspire ASOIAF most notably the war of the roses and all kind of various mythology (I think I even read someone comparing it to Czeck or Slavik mythology).

Exactly my feeling. There are too many diverse influences on ASOIAF for me to buy the one-to-one correspondences to Norse mythology that the author of that theory is trying to sell, but I do absolutely buy that Norse mythology is an important one of those influences, and it may give us some clues as to where he is going.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I don't believe that GRRM's story arc is going to cleave to Norse mythology as closely as the author thinks either. But there are far too many similarities for it to be an accident, and the correlation raises a lot of amazing possibilities that most of us failed to entertain.

For instance, despite GRRM's admitted love for undermining fantasy tropes, most readers expect everything to culminate in a giant battle between the Others and Dany's dragons. But Martin has stated that the Others aren't evil, "just different" (can't find a source just now). And most of the characters we'd identify as "main" or central to the plot are associated with the Loki and the Giants, not the Gods of Asgard. Which means Jon, Dany, Bran, etc. may end up fighting for the Others and the Children of the Forest against the realms of men.

Crazy stuff.

 

[IrishLax]

Quite interesting. To your point Whiskey about the Others not being "evil" it's funny because that was a question discussed in this very thread earlier... and I know for a fact that Martin has said that in Winds of Winter we will learn more about the culture/history of the Others implying that they are not some menacing all-evil scourge from a zombie movie with no endgame.

I don't know if I an buy R'hlorr and the Great Other teaming together. And I don't buy Bran/Bloodraven being on the side of the Others because of the warding of the cave against the undead and many, MANY other things that just make that implausible.

John coming back as the Night's King? Totally plausible. A number of the other parallels are quite plausible too. And it's pretty clear -- from content and Martin's own statements -- that he has borrowed pieces from all over the place. So like everyone, I doubt it adheres to the Norse line as much as that blog post author said (and he had quite a few stretches/things that don't add up in it). One of his biggest stretches was relating the Faith of Seven to a Norse parallel... the Faith of Seven is CLEARLY an allegory to early Catholicism. That are about a dozen clear parallels.

 

[IrishLax]

As an aside, did anyone see GRRM on Conan? Was pretty solid.

 

[mgriff]

I saw this on Reddit yesterday as well. The top comment on the article Whiskey linked summarizes my thoughts while reading through it. indianthane95 comments on (spoilers all) Goddamn, "Game of Thrones and Norse Mythology" should be required reading for r/asoiaf, (self post).

He has borrowed from all sorts of world mythology and actual history, woven them into the story to account for different plot lines. The Others being the Sidhe made of ice, which means the red priests/priestesses would be fire made flesh. The Bitfrost bridge in Norse mythology, the War of the Roses in history. There are so many which can clue us in to certain story arcs, but the overall narrative is not beholden to any individual mythological tale. There will almost certainly be more parallels, but I still think the ending is entirely GRRM.

 

[Grahambo]

It's incredible how detailed of a world GRRM was able to create. It's almost like you need to get a degree just to follow it all. Makes me want to get the books even more. Also helps GRRM is a fellow New Jerseyean.

 

[ND NYC]

So, it seems GRRM modeled aSoIaF on Norse mythology, and this is all leading up to Ragnarok. If you're into fan theories, this is a must-read article. Mind-blowing stuff.

fascinating stuff...and the comments section had some keen insights as well.

"how long...how long must we sing this song"

i often wonder if it had been "better" that the HBO series was made after all the books of ASOIAF were completed. My (fear) concern is that GRRM (consciously/subconscioulsy) alters/changes/adds/deletes things based on the HBO version and the worldwide reaction to it.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

i often wonder if it had been "better" that the HBO series was made after all the books of ASOIAF were completed. My (fear) concern is that GRRM (consciously/subconscioulsy) alters/changes/adds/deletes things based on the HBO version and the worldwide reaction to it.

GRRM has addressed this issue in several interviews before. He's admitted to being very impressed with Natalie Tena's portrayal of Osha, which has caused him to expand her role in the books going forward. But other than that, he claims the show hasn't affected the development of any characters. He's killed off a lot of them already, and for those he hasn't, he claims they've been living in his head so long by now that they're very resistant to change.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Considering how much I love the theory of Jon being the next Night's King, I really hope that is true. I doubt it follows it so closely, but King Jon Tarstark, Night's King, Leader of The Others, Slayer of Men, and Rightful Heir to the Iron Throne, should definitely happen.

 

[beryirish]

GRRM also said in an interview that he stays away from the public forums and such so he isn't persuaded or influenced to change what he already has in his head or what may come to him when writing the future books.