'13 CA DT Eddie Vanderdoes (UCLA)

[Ironman8]

Pat, despite IM8's repeated attempts to explain this and your continuing failure to catch on, I'm sure you can grasp the difference between (1) saying something that is completely fanciful and based on pure speculation, but nevertheless presented as fact and (2) having a discussion based on the facts that are available to us, even if they may change. You are doing the first; we are trying to do the second.

The accusation that EV's decision to go elsewhere is BK's fault is simply not supported by any facts right now. I tend to agree that rumors should be fair game on a recruiting board, but there is a big difference between rumors which are based on unconfirmed facts and rumors which are based on NO facts at all. Right now (and this could change as more facts come out) any charge that BK is at fault here is the latter type of rumor and has no place on this board. It's just so much hot air (or whatever the electronic equivalent of that is) and it does nothing but waste everyone's time.

That's a solid post, but the point isn't even EV's apparently impending defection and BK's culpability in it - the point is that Pat keeps using it as a springboard to state that BK is at fault for all (or the majority, not sure which) high profile decommitments / transfers, when in those cases we have ACTUAL evidence that it was not the case.

That is my issue. It could certainly turn out BK and/or the staff is at fault, at some level, for EV's apparently impending transfer - I honestly don't know. No one does. But the others, we do know about, and I for the life of me don't see how they are all BK's fault. Do you?

 

[Ironman8]

Why are posters here taking a "100% or 0%" stance on blame with Kelly here? Even more, I'm not even sure Pat ever took a "100% of the blame lies with Kelly" stance here.

Yes, we all know kids transfer ALL the time...in every sport. Bringing up stats on kids who graduated and transferred or on kids that were 2-star or 3-star recruits is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. 5-stars (or high 4-star) are the issue. So narrowing down that potential list leaves much fewer players. And go ahead and remove USC from that too-- they got hit with major sanctions...of course they're going to lose players (go ahead and add PSU to this list as well). Now there's a much better "list" of players to look at to compare the exodus at ND to the exodus at other schools. Other schools also admit kids with criminal pasts/histories and/or kids that are functionally illiterate. In other words, coaches, administrators, fans, etc. know (or should know) that bringing that kid in is a big gamble as there's a decent chance the kid will never make it. ND, for all intents and purposes, doesn't admit kids of that nature.

So of the relatively few 5-stars that Kelly has brought into ND, he does not have a great track record of keeping a high percentage of them. This isn't an attack on Kelly. This is looking at legitimate data. COULD Kelly be A PART of the problem? Absolutely! COULD he have done more...done things differently? Absolutely! Does acknowledging this diminish what he's done at ND and stops before that? No! Kelly's been a fantastic, homerun hire for ND.

I'm baffled by the rush to seemingly absolve him of ANY blame for the loss of any of these players. Yes, in several instances, there is probably nothing he could have done. But in several of the instances, there are things he could have done differently. Does this mean that sometimes there aren't "additions by subtraction?" No way. By most accounts, losing Lynch was probably an example of this. But losing a TALENT like Lynch hurt. Losing a TALENT like Neal, Kiel, Vanderdoes, and even Sheppard, Prestwood, and Ferguson hurt. Even if Kelly has to do some soul searching and decide if it's even worth the staff's time to recruit some of these guys, then so be it.

Closing the gap on Alabama becomes MUCH harder to do with less talented players. There's no denying it and no way around it. CAN Kelly still lead ND to closing that gap and a title? Yes! It's just harder.

I doubt I'm the only one (in fact, I doubt I'm even in the minority) that believes ND will win a natty without upgrading talent...or that he and his staff definitely mishandled some things in the recruiting, signing, or coaching of some players.

Is there not an innate contradiction in your argument here? This is the source of my frustration - the same guys (not saying you per se) who would look at each recruiting class and bitch and moan about the lack of superstar talent if we chose not to recruit the high profile guys who come with baggage / issues / etc. are the same ones who are now blaming him for when they don't hack it academically / have Res Life issues / don't pan out, etc.

That's the gamble you take when you recruit these kids who have been interviewed by dozens of reporters and contacted by hundreds of recruiters since early high school, especially the ones with questionable grades / moral fiber / guidance. I agree wholeheartedly you need this kind of talent to have elite sustainable success, and that is why BK is taking these gambles. But at the same time, how are you faulting him for when these gambles don't pay off because the kid did not fulfill his duty to be / stay at ND!

You guys know as well as me how different ND is from a Bama type of school academically, socially, morally, faithfully, etc. It takes a certain type of student athlete to be here, stay here, and succeed here. Not everyone is going to hack it, but that is exactly what makes it so special, and why those who do make it are so set to succeed when they leave!

By compromising on those ideals that ND prides itself on for it's student athletes to keep these elite kids here, you are diminishing the experience and payoff for all those who do all the right things to be here and excel here.

You can either keep to your standards and realize you might have higher turnover that way, or you can compromise and lessen yourself. What do you want to do?

 

[Emcee77]

That's a solid post, but the point isn't even EV's apparently impending defection and BK's culpability in it - the point is that Pat keeps using it as a springboard to state that BK is at fault for all (or the majority, not sure which) high profile decommitments / transfers, when in those cases we have ACTUAL evidence that it was not the case.

That is my issue. It could certainly turn out BK and/or the staff is at fault, at some level, for EV's apparently impending transfer - I honestly don't know. No one does. But the others, we do know about, and I for the life of me don't see how they are all BK's fault. Do you?

No, I agree with you totally.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Is there not an innate contradiction in your argument here? This is the source of my frustration - the same guys (not saying you per se) who would look at each recruiting class and bitch and moan about the lack of superstar talent if we chose not to recruit the high profile guys who come with baggage / issues / etc. are the same ones who are now blaming him for when they don't hack it academically / have Res Life issues / don't pan out, etc.

That's the gamble you take when you recruit these kids who have been interviewed by dozens of reporters and contacted by hundreds of recruiters since early high school, especially the ones with questionable grades / moral fiber / guidance. I agree wholeheartedly you need this kind of talent to have elite sustainable success, and that is why BK is taking these gambles. But at the same time, how are you faulting him for when these gambles don't pay off because the kid did not fulfill his duty to be / stay at ND!

You guys know as well as me how different ND is from a Bama type of school academically, socially, morally, faithfully, etc. It takes a certain type of student athlete to be here, stay here, and succeed here. Not everyone is going to hack it, but that is exactly what makes it so special, and why those who do make it are so set to succeed when they leave!

By compromising on those ideals that ND prides itself on for it's student athletes to keep these elite kids here, you are diminishing the experience and payoff for all those who do all the right things to be here and excel here.

You can either keep to your standards and realize you might have higher turnover that way, or you can compromise and lessen yourself. What do you want to do?

Was in the process of typing this....just wasn't worded as elegantly. Great post. 100% agree.

People can't have their cake and eat it too. You want to level the playing field? You have to go after elite recruits. However, it should always be in the back of your mind that some of said recruits come with certain risks. You win some, you lose some. But the key is to keep taking the risks. I said it earlier and I'll repeat it: Previous coaching staffs would not have gone after Tuitt, Nix, Redfield, etc. with any success. BK does. And as NDAccountant pointed out, they've landed 9 5stars in 3 years...9! I don't care if 4 have transferred. That just means 5 have stayed (feel free to check my math). But 9 is a great number and one that I don't see slowing down. We should be thankful this staff takes those risks. (Although, again, I wish they'd oversign by 2 or 3 every year...but that's a different story for a different time).

 

[ACamp1900]

It's hard to believe this jsut can't be smoothed over with a couple of trips by Coach D and Co.

Did ND just completely offend this kids' Shaolin Temple or something???

 

[AllGoldEverything]

F UCLA

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l_g3oLuVMt8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[NDFANnSouthWest]

It's hard to believe this jsut can't be smoothed over with a couple of trips by Coach D and Co.

Did ND just completely offend this kids' Shaolin Temple or something???

Great question....what in the heck did ND/BK etc do to **** them off so much? Did they say he was going to play OL instead of DL?

 

[irishtrinity]

It's hard to tell if anything happened. I haven't heard one word about this from EV,ND or Coach Kelly. May just be a lot of talk for nothing.

 

[Irishman77]

It's hard to tell if anything happened. I haven't heard one word about this from EV,ND or Coach Kelly. May just be a lot of talk for nothing.

When you do gt the call please share the intel with IE

 

[NDFANnSouthWest]

Hopefully cooler heads prevail, BK/BD should jump on a Plane to Cali and talk this out. #hope

 

[Ironman8]

Hopefully cooler heads prevail, BK/BD should jump on a Plane to Cali and talk this out. #hope

BK can not initiate contact with EV.

 

[ACamp1900]

BK can not initiate contact with EV.

seriously, even though he is LOI'd... and yet UCLA seems to be communicating up a storm with the lad...

lovely.

 

[EddytoNow]

These are 17 year old kids for the most part. Their initial reaction to Notre Dame is to love it or hate it. Most of us on IE love Notre Dame, but that isn't the case with every 4 or 5 star recruit. Sometimes, they have to be sold on what the university can do for them. Some recruits are lifelong ND fans and just need an offer. Others take some convincing before deciding and then waiver for any number of factors (academic expectations, girl friend back home, leaving the comfort of having mom or dad nearby, the reality that they now have to earn playing time, bonding with other players once they enroll, lack of nightlife in the vicinity, coaches hounding them to do it right, interference from family or friends, parenting responsibilities, unrealistic assessments of their own self-importance, etc.)

Leaving the comfort of home is an eye-opener for most of these kids. For the first time in their life they are required to make a long-term commitment to something and face the consequences when they make irresponsible choices. EV is just another 17 year old. He will make some good decisions and some bad decisions. Will he take responsibility for his actions and the rest of his life? Who knows. But irregardless, it is his decision to make. We need to back off and let him decide. He needs to face the consequences of his decision. If the consequence of signing a LOI and then backing out of it is to sit out a season and lose a year of eligibility, then so be it.

Notre Dame will be fine. We survived the Faust, Davie, and Willingham years. We would have liked better, but the university is still here. I'm going to love this university whether we go 12-0 or 0-12. There are far more important things going on than whether or not a 17 year old decides to become part of the Notre Dame family.

Like my dad used to always say: **** or get off the pot. Life goes on.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

It's hard to believe this jsut can't be smoothed over with a couple of trips by Coach D and Co.

Did ND just completely offend this kids' Shaolin Temple or something???

Great question....what in the heck did ND/BK etc do to **** them off so much? Did they say he was going to play OL instead of DL?

That's my issue as well. It's possible that ND did something to p!ss EV off, but it seems very unlikely. He was super high on the Irish just a few months ago; what could have happened?

That's why the combination of cold feet and UCLA tampering seems much more likely to me.

 

[greyhammer90]

BK can not initiate contact with EV.

Really? A coach can't talk with a kid who's signed a LOI before he reports for camp?

That's a weird rule. I guess to prevent coaches from putting pressure on kids to do "voluntary" workouts?

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Really? A coach can't talk with a kid who's signed a LOI before he reports for camp?

That's a weird rule. I guess to prevent coaches from putting pressure on kids to do "voluntary" workouts?

He can if EV calls him.

 

[irishtrinity]

I'm going to Roseville Ca next week. His town is right next to it.

 

[gkIrish]

F UCLA

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/l_g3oLuVMt8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

this was my #1 football memory as a student. Things rolled pretty far downhill after this.

 

[ThePiombino]

Some of us are not speculating.

OMG we get it- you're buds with TP, either directly or indirectly. Get over yourself already, it's really not worth hinting at every chance you get.

 

[IrishLax]

You can't communicate with kids right before they report to campus? What? Are you sure?

EDIT: Rules Subsequent to the Signing of the NLI - MGOBLUE.COM - University of Michigan Official Athletic Site

I'm officially confused. Also, this makes it double shady if UCLA was contacting him.

 

[Kanye West]

Is anyone else reading Irishpat's posts in 'Charlie Day's' voice?

Yea. Their IQ's are comparable as well, Charlie's might be a little higher.
Seriously we lost a 1/4 5 stars, this year and people neglect how great our recruiting class truly is even without EV.

 

[NDFANnSouthWest]

My interpretation (guess I am wrong) is that once a LOI is signed the coach can communicate freely. smh

Slightly different topic....found this interesting:

Aftermath

When the hype of National Signing Day is over, some recruits change their mind. The National Letter of Intent program has a specific release process for such cases, though they are rare. Of the more than 36,000 signings last year, fewer than 700 signees requested releases – less than 2 percent. Of those, only 30 did not eventually obtain their release. None of those cases was high-profile, Peal said.

To achieve a release, a prospect must fill out paperwork and cite a specific reason for wanting to be relieved of the commitment. Some institutions grant releases without question; others have a policy that requires the recruit to appeal to the committee of commissioners. The committee generally requires some sort of extenuating circumstances before granting a release.

The basic penalty for a recruit who signs a National Letter of Intent but changes his mind about the institution is a year in residence at the next NLI institution (no competition) and a loss of one season of competition in all sports.

Because the NLI must be accompanied by a scholarship offer, the recruit has a right to that scholarship for a year, even if the institution or coach wishes to withdraw it.

National letters can also be declared invalid or null and void. An invalid NLI is usually because of a clerical error (missing full name, missing NCAA ID, etc.). An NLI that is declared null and void is generally the result of some sort of action by either the institution or the recruit, including the recruit not meeting initial-eligibility requirements or the school discontinuing the sport.

The result of both the invalid and null and void National Letter of Intent is essentially the same – no binding agreement exists. If an agreement is declared null and void, however, the recruit is not permitted to sign again during the same signing year (though he can play and compete elsewhere, just without a National Letter of Intent).

source:
Signature moment The evolution of the National Letter of Intent - NCAA.org

 

[nsideirish]

Yea. Their IQ's are comparable as well, Charlie's might be a little higher.
Seriously we lost a 1/4 5 stars, this year and people neglect how great our recruiting class truly is even without EV.

I don't think anyone is neglecting that. I think people are just rightfully pointing out that losing EV is a pretty big blow to the depth and talent level of our defensive front going forward.

We still have a tremendous amount of talent coming in next year. But big time 5* DL don't come around every day.

 

[IrishLax]

Varsityedge.com: College Athletic Recruiting - Signing a National Letter of Intent

I'm really confused I always thought there was free contact after you signed LOI and everyone else had to cease. This period of time is only a quiet period. So... yeah... awesome NCAA.

 

[GoldenIsThyFame]

Varsityedge.com: College Athletic Recruiting - Signing a National Letter of Intent

I'm really confused I always thought there was free contact after you signed LOI and everyone else had to cease. This period of time is only a quiet period. So... yeah... awesome NCAA.

I thought this too but Lou at BGI is the one that brought it up yesterday about EV having to initiate the contact with BK, which is why I asked then if there was a loophole for EV to contact Mora since in a sense he doesn't "belong to ND" yet he does from a LOI perspective.

 

[NDFAN22]

I dont honestly think the real reason will ever come out of why EV had a change of heart.

 

[clashmore_mike]

Joe Schad on CFL said he talked to Eddie's dad today and doesn't have a good feeling about ND holding on. Also said Eddie will shed some light on the reasons for this decision. This is not just a change of heart.

Schad also said other coaching staffs around the country are contacting ND's staff telling them not to let him out of the LOI.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

I don't think anyone is neglecting that. I think people are just rightfully pointing out that losing EV is a pretty big blow to the depth and talent level of our defensive front going forward.

We still have a tremendous amount of talent coming in next year. But big time 5* DL don't come around every day.

I don't get that. People said the same of AL. Wasn't. Wouldn't be with EV. Good player? Yes. Like to have him? Certainly.

Two points that are certain: EV's best deal is to come to ND as he signed on, and unless there is a rare unusual situation, it will stay that way;

The ND coaches are content to let the situation work itself out. Anything else is speculation.

But all these conspiracy theorists, blame the ND Staff, etc., are all goofs.

 

[connor_in]

Some facts for all to think about.......

Of the top 20 recruits of 2012 nationally according to Scout, 1 has transferred so far.
2011, 3 transferred
2010, 6 transferred
2009, 4 transferred
2008 - 4 transferred
2007 - 3 transferred

So, assuming that the top 20 are five stars, about 18% transferred.

If I look back at ND five stars since Clausen (according to scout for consistency purposes), ND has inked 16 5. 5 have transfered if you count Crist, 4 if you don't, 3 if you do not count EV. I don't consider Crist a transfer, but I will count EV. So ND has a 25% transfer out trend. Not too far from average, but slightly higher. In the last three classes, we have inked 9 five stars according to Scout. we have lost 4, counting EV.

From a trend perspective, over the last 6 classes, we have been about average. However, if you look at just the last three, we have been close to double the attrition.

Just thought I would share that.

Scout.com: Recruiting 2011 - CFN Top 50 Prospects

While this is a great post overall, I have one nit to pick...others have been referring to this as well, but I used this post because I wanted to compliment the work and thought in it.

My nit to pick...I have a hard time putting someone in the "transfer" category when they have never even showed up.

Kiel, Prestwood, Lynch, Neal, here a year then left. Heck even Tee Shephard was on campus before they slapped him with ineligible and shipped him back out.

But EV, whatever the actual situation is as there appear to be no hard facts pertaining to "why" is something else entirely should he not show up. And I will wait to hear someone officially say he won't be here before I close the door. Eddie, man, we appreciate your talent, you see you will be surrounded by other studs, we already made one title run, would love to have you stay on board and help us set up some more.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

While this is a great post overall, I have one nit to pick...others have been referring to this as well, but I used this post because I wanted to compliment the work and thought in it.

My nit to pick...I have a hard time putting someone in the "transfer" category when they have never even showed up.

Kiel, Prestwood, Lynch, Neal, here a year then left. Heck even Tee Shephard was on campus before they slapped him with ineligible and shipped him back out.

But EV, whatever the actual situation is as there appear to be no hard facts pertaining to "why" is something else entirely should he not show up. And I will wait to hear someone officially say he won't be here before I close the door. Eddie, man, we appreciate your talent, you see you will be surrounded by other studs, we already made one title run, would love to have you stay on board and help us set up some more.

The situation of Kiel, Prestwood, AL, and Shepard were all completely different. Prestwood couldn't stay; Al didn't want to until it was too late.