'Z' no more - Denbrock

Rack Em

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It's what a lot of us have been saying to an extent, but interesting to see something written specifically about it. How far away from core spread methodology will we get?

‘Z’ no more: Plans for slot receiver evolve | Inside the Irish

I think we still utilize a lot of the "core spread methodology". Denbrock specifically says in the article that they don't pin players to certain positions. Instead they have someone as a RB on 1 play but a Z (WR) on another. Or a W in one set and an X in a different set. Interchangeable personnel is fundamental to the spread. The spread is designed to create mismatches across the field; consequently, plugging players in at multiple positions helps to do that.

The read-option isn't 'fundamental' to the spread, but it is frequently incorporated because a 3-4 WR set spreads the LBs out and takes advantage of 1-on-1 blocking opportunities for OL on DL/LB. We've seen Kelly utilize the read-option a lot more this past year with Golson under center.

But as far as the traditional notion of a spread offense, we've digressed away from some of those. Kelly is using big, power RBs (Jonas Gray, Robert Hughes, Mahone, Roberson I think, Greg Bryant, even Theo with his downhill running style) to wear down DLs by the end of the game rather than rely on winning a foot race with smaller, quicker backs (ala Oregon).

Two TE sets with our QB lined up under center also doesn't line up with traditional notions of the spread either, especially Houston's, Texas Tech's, West Virginia's offenses...

I think fundamental spread concepts are still at the core of Kelly's offensive philosophy. They're just manifesting themselves in atypical ways.
 

greyhammer90

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I think we still utilize a lot of the "core spread methodology". Denbrock specifically says in the article that they don't pin players to certain positions. Instead they have someone as a RB on 1 play but a Z (WR) on another. Or a W in one set and an X in a different set. Interchangeable personnel is fundamental to the spread. The spread is designed to create mismatches across the field; consequently, plugging players in at multiple positions helps to do that.

The read-option isn't 'fundamental' to the spread, but it is frequently incorporated because a 3-4 WR set spreads the LBs out and takes advantage of 1-on-1 blocking opportunities for OL on DL/LB. We've seen Kelly utilize the read-option a lot more this past year with Golson under center.

But as far as the traditional notion of a spread offense, we've digressed away from some of those. Kelly is using big, power RBs (Jonas Gray, Robert Hughes, Mahone, Roberson I think, Greg Bryant, even Theo with his downhill running style) to wear down DLs by the end of the game rather than rely on winning a foot race with smaller, quicker backs (ala Oregon).

Two TE sets with our QB lined up under center also doesn't line up with traditional notions of the spread either, especially Houston's, Texas Tech's, West Virginia's offenses...

I think fundamental spread concepts are still at the core of Kelly's offensive philosophy. They're just manifesting themselves in atypical ways.

This is just a wonderful post. You should feel good. Reps.
 

Irish YJ

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Agree with most of what you said. I think BK wants to be more spread, but is 1) being cautious due to several factors, 2) dependent on the QB being able to go-fast, and 3) working with peeps he has.
 

ulukinatme

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I'm not sure what you can call this offense, but it's less Spread sometimes and more of a mix of...Power Spread? Probably more Power than Spread some games, although we don't utilize two back sets. Should call it the Kelly Hybrid or something. Don't really care if it's a Spread or not, or what we call the positions, just as long as it puts enough points on the board for us to win.
 

NDdomer2

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you can run the same plays in multiple "offenses" with multiple personnel. great coaches use what they have and make it work.
 

Luckylucci

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I didn't take what Denbrock said as we won't have a Z player on the field. I took it as we won't have one singular player that is the Z. He even gave an example that "Guys can be a RB on one play and a Z on the next." That to me means we still will have that position, we just won't have one player that is solely a Z receiver.
 

PANDFAN

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the Z position is still in the offense....they are not just assigning A person to it....much like when Floyd was there...he played in the slot and on outside whenever they felt there was a favorable match up...this is NOT something new...the only difference was last year we had Toma and he wasn't going to play outside which limited him to slot.
 

NDdomer2

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I believe this was discussed in CJ's thread when disucssing the role of the "slot". Some thought Kelly has a prototype for what he wants there, while throughout his career at ND that has not been the case.

Football is about creating match-ups. If we have to use formations not typical to the "Spread" to create those favorable match-ups then you better believe Kelly is going to do it.
 

Old Man Mike

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interesting..... we've seen this trend coming for a while but it was too radical to believe that the thinking would go this far.

I think/feel that Kelly is following his great system instincts here again. He has always wanted to role out of the huddle and present something to the defense that they could not figure out until after the ball was snapped. Prior to this, Kelly's idea was grounded on a very simple way of presentation: four immediately dangerous quick receivers running mainly short to intermediate routes and a QB who saw the field, read the sequence rapidly, and delivered darts before the DLines could get there. Mixed in was the "pepper" of the semi-surprise rip blast run in the semi-open-field defensive confusion.

Here at ND almost every bit of that had to be modified. As Kelly "went bigger" to conservatively protect flawed quarterbacks, he serendipitously became aware of how big he could recruit here. Since running was a greater staple here than at previous stops, inline blocking TEs but also downfield blocking WRs became an insistence. Our WR recruits began swelling in size.

The last element in this surprising evolution seems to be Kelly's decision/vision of the double confusing RB. I believe that he wanted to do this last season, but the power difference between Cierre as the "other" back to the multifunctional Theo, vs the undefendable Tyler Eifert in the slot, made him largely give up on the two-back game.

So, here we are. Kelly's rolling out Big Guns all across the field. Big physical people who will outmuscle you, out jump you, and block your eyeballs out. If there ARE two RBs, BOTH will be able to catch and both will be able to block at high levels or they won't be the "two".

This makes me pause. GAIII? Amir? Cam? Will? The two rooks? When/if we go two RBs, who can run, catch, AND run-block? [Pass-block is an absolute requirement].
 

Irish YJ

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Good stuff. I was thinking a lot of this but did not have time to articulate yesterday. While others feel BK hasn't changed much, or the spread is still the spread... well I think you hit all the holes.... All bolded below. Regarding the backs, I think you are dead on. I think BK is watching the CFB landscape, and has Alabama envy to an extent. I think we will still see the smaller, shifty back, but I think we will see a heavier dose of guys like bruiser Greg Bryant. At the end of the day, I think BK wants to go fast, and will try regardless of spread or no spread. I also think that BK probably thought the spread was the best, and probably only way he could succeed at places like the MAC, and in Cinci. As you stated, once he found out how he could recruit, he's looking at the success of teams over the last 10 years and creating his own brand of CFB. Dominant D, big line, big strong backs, shifty QB. I think he will only get farther away from his roots as he continues to recruit and develop bigger, stronger, faster, higher star kind of guys.

interesting..... we've seen this trend coming for a while but it was too radical to believe that the thinking would go this far.

I think/feel that Kelly is following his great system instincts here again. He has always wanted to role out of the huddle and present something to the defense that they could not figure out until after the ball was snapped. Prior to this, Kelly's idea was grounded on a very simple way of presentation: four immediately dangerous quick receivers running mainly short to intermediate routes and a QB who saw the field, read the sequence rapidly, and delivered darts before the DLines could get there. Mixed in was the "pepper" of the semi-surprise rip blast run in the semi-open-field defensive confusion.

Here at ND almost every bit of that had to be modified. As Kelly "went bigger" to conservatively protect flawed quarterbacks, he serendipitously became aware of how big he could recruit here. Since running was a greater staple here than at previous stops, inline blocking TEs but also downfield blocking WRs became an insistence. Our WR recruits began swelling in size.

The last element in this surprising evolution seems to be Kelly's decision/vision of the double confusing RB. I believe that he wanted to do this last season, but the power difference between Cierre as the "other" back to the multifunctional Theo, vs the undefendable Tyler Eifert in the slot, made him largely give up on the two-back game.

So, here we are. Kelly's rolling out Big Guns all across the field. Big physical people who will outmuscle you, out jump you, and block your eyeballs out. If there ARE two RBs, BOTH will be able to catch and both will be able to block at high levels or they won't be the "two".

This makes me pause. GAIII? Amir? Cam? Will? The two rooks? When/if we go two RBs, who can run, catch, AND run-block? [Pass-block is an absolute requirement].
 

Whiskeyjack

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Of course we'll still line guys up at the Z and Y. But it sounds like we won't be recruiting small shifty WRs specifically for that position anymore. And I'm OK with it, to be honest.

As others have touched on, ND has a recruiting advantage over all but an elite few in that we can get the biggest and strongest guys available. Going small and fast squanders that advantage. Why finesse your opponent when you can just run him the f*ck over? That's what the best teams in the country have done consistently since football was invented.

There's simply less risk involved than getting cute with a spread passing attack that requires a seasoned QB and lots of timing and rhythm.
 
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PANDFAN

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i PERSONALLY believe this is what drove Neal away from ND....say what you want...but the "slot" position is not being used in its truest form...and this limits PT for players smaller like Neal...
 

IrishLax

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i PERSONALLY believe this is what drove Neal away from ND....say what you want...but the "slot" position is not being used in its truest form...and this limits PT for players smaller like Neal...

Actually, from what I've been told, completely unrelated.
 

PANDFAN

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PANDFAN, Completely wrong. It was 100% family related.

so when he transfers to a california school, he will be closer to his family that is 2 states away...but i understand it's all about the fam....i really don't care but i just don't buy it...at 1st i did but then when dad was talking about california schools it went out the door
 

kmoose

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so when he transfers to a california school, he will be closer to his family that is 2 states away...but i understand it's all about the fam....i really don't care but i just don't buy it...at 1st i did but then when dad was talking about california schools it went out the door

It's not the physical proximity. It's that schools like USC will provide frequent transportation for him, to travel back and forth to see his baby/baby's mama. Or they will, at least, look the other way when some agent's rep provides it.

Can't get that perk at ND.
 
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