OCIrish
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Wait.......what, you mean that didn't already happen looking like that?????
Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?
- Thread starter calvegas04
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Wait.......what, you mean that didn't already happen looking like that?????
NDgradstudent
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All the stuff in the ads is true. It doesn't have to be, but it be. Any recruit can find out that information for himself.
More of the top players were going to OSU/Michigan than coming here before anyone even thought of placing the ads. Heck, more were going to OSU/Michigan back before the season when we were preseason top 10.
Both recruits' decisions and the ads reflect the same problems with the football program.
OCIrish
Fukk Michigan
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You've made it abundantly clear that you lack either the capacity or inclination to understand how things work. I prefer not to waste my time indulging someone in your shoes.
Or... as my grandmother would put it... bless your heart
Tried to warn ya Shamrock.........
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lol.
It's not about the fucking information and "facts" being "available". Jesus Christ. I mean, it's just painfully obvious who the people are that don't get it. The entire game is about sales and misinformation. Read that article as a very basic primer.
It's all about comfort, fit, and perception. Compare these two scenarios:
-In one, ND alums take out an ad thanking the players for their effort in a tough season and expressing faith in Brian Kelly and optimism for 2017. There's an op-ed in the Observer about perservearance through tough times. And on Echoes weekend, everything around campus is about positivity.
-In the other, ND alums take out an ads like they did. The student newspaper is full of articles trashing the coach and program. And on Echoes weekend, simply walking around campus you see public displays calling for the head of the guy recruiting you.
If you can't see how those two scenarios would play out completely different for a prospective recruit and their parents trying to make a tough decision, then I can't help you. Only lead a horse to water and all that.
In the first scenario, parents and the kid are going to be much more comfortable about sending their kid to ND. It's the same logic as how we signed a monster class after Weis' 3-9. In the second, they're going to be given serious pause by what they're seeing... it undermines our entire selling point about fan support, and it adds a layer of uncertainty towards everything else. Can you trust a coach that everyone wants out? If this is true, is all the other negative recruiting true also?
It's not about losing kids to Michigan and Ohio State. It's about losing kids to random ass places like Kentucky or Iowa or wherever. This stuff is not that complicated.
You've made it abundantly clear that you lack either the capacity or inclination to understand how things work. I prefer not to waste my time indulging someone in your shoes.
Or... as my grandmother would put it... bless your heart
I think all grandmothers say that. Probably a rule or something.
FDNYIrish1
ARE YOU SUPPORTIVE OF THESE ONESIES???
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I just recently found out what it means from family in the south. Now I'm pissed at anyone who's ever said it to me!
Yes very common phrase here in the south.
C
Cackalacky
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Its not nice. Lol
NDgradstudent
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Isn't the bigger problem that an ad taken out by fans is all it takes to upset the apple cart?
Can I ruin UK basketball's recruiting by taking out an ad in the Kentucky Kernel?
GowerND11
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Yes and no.
Right now, your ad isn't going to do much good considering the run that Kentucky is on.
ON the flip side, if Calipari is in hot water in March for whatever reason, and people are calling for his firing, then yes that ad could do harm to their recruiting class. (Not sure when basketball signs their classes, might have to be before March)
gkIrish
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Good point. What was stopping a USC fan from taking out that same ad in the Observer and claiming to represent alums? The fact that a mostly factual ad can hurt our class indicates much bigger problems.
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I could twist a number of things to make an argument for almost any coach to sound bad and so can other schools, that's why negative recruiting happens all the time. But what makes this look exceptionally bad is that it comes from our own "fans".
gkIrish
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That's not really responsive. What is stopping anyone from taking out an advertisement that looks identical to the one that was taken out and claiming to be a fan even if they are actually USC fans?
The bottom line is the ad just made it more convenient to crap on ND. The underlying facts are the problem, not the ad.
Again, I would never have taken that ad out but I think the reaction is overblown.
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There isn't anything stopping anyone from doing it. And I get what you're saying. Just win baby. But do you not see how negative recruiting coming directly from a fan base is worse than coming from rivals or opponents?
kmoose
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gkIrish
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No shit Sherlock. What's stopping Joe Smith from Fort Wayne, IN from signing something "The Concerned Fans of Notre Dame" ? Nothing at all.
This was a big deal because it was in the Observer and because it was a huge graphic, not because Mike Murphy, ND '89 signed it.
gkIrish
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It absolutely does. My argument is that a rival fan could pose as a Notre Dame fan, print the same ad, and the same thing was going to happen. If the underlying facts aren't true, the ad never gets taken out by anyone.
kmoose
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Because you can dismiss it easily enough, if it comes from some randomly named organization/person that no one can determine even exists, compared to an actual alumnus that you can google easily enough.
gkIrish
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I'm sure all the recruits who saw the graphic are frantically googling Mike Murphy's name.
kmoose
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Probably not. But I did. And so did most of the journalists who wrote about it, probably. Hell, even most of the "not a journalist" blog writers probably did. Get all of those people dismissing it as a hoax, and it becomes a non-issue for everyone.
gkIrish
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The facts in the ad will ALWAYS be an issue, whether that ad was taken out or not, no matter who paid for the ad, whether it was taken out in November or January, etc.
Blaming the ad for losing recruits, which seems to be what's going on here, is silly. A 500 dollar ad doesn't take down a program, the content of the ad does.
TheSunIsRising
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Unit. Corps. God. Country.
Seriously though:
Very true that ANYONE could take out the ad, but my reading is that most of the issues that people are having are:
1)ND Fans taking out the ad and not seeing that it CAN hurt recruiting (not the only thing obviously, but the Ads are certainly no helping)
2)Other 'fans' posting that there is NO issue with ND Fans doing this.
Agree that this alone is not the end of the world, but with all that is going on: why add to it if you are truly a fan? As you said: "I wouldn't have taken out the ad myself" (paraphrasing)
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PANDFAN
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yes ANYONE can take an ad out against a rival and try to spin it as disgruntled alumni BUT there was a TON OF NOISE on twitter about the go fund me account regarding it....so it can be traced unless of course you want to foot the bill yourself
kmoose
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The facts in the ad are an issue. The question is whether or not they are an issue that affects recruiting(they appear not to be), the confidence of the leadership of the University in the Head Coach(they appear to not), or the confidence of the fan base(I think that's a pretty big split. Some, like yourself, want Kelly gone, period, end of sentence. Some, like myself, would not complain if the Administration decided to go another direction, but aren't convinced that the situation is beyond rectifying. Others still, will demand that he be kept on). So the media(mainstream and social) reaction is a big deal. It will influence the perception out there.
I'm not blaming the ad for losing recruits at all. Nor am I suggesting that it will take down the program. What I AM saying is that it doesn't help move the program in the direction that we all want it to go. On a deeper level, I think it also encourages people to actively root for ND football to lose, because they are convinced that Kelly is a failure and that all of the people who make these decisions for a living are not as smart as they are. it's just my opinion that it is a counterproductive action that has little, if any, chance of inspiring any kind of change that would be positive.
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The entire issue at hand here is how people are conflating the valid and widely held opinion that Kelly has not been good enough and should be replaced with the ideas that ads 1) aren't a big deal or 2) accomplish something good or 3) are otherwise justifiable.
You could make an argument that taking out an ad in the paper could've served a purpose any time before the Friday release of Jack's statement. After that, points #2 and #3 no longer hold as it is a certifiable fact that no change was going to be made.
Saying "isn't a bigger problem that..." and saying "well, anyone could..." is just obfuscation of the fact that an alum taking out an ad in the paper like that is stupid and has negative consequences. The bolded premise is what a few people continue to rail against, despite all logic and evidence to the contrary, and it's a losing position to anyone who thinks about it critically as a single action.
If you work in an office and all of the people rightfully grumble about the lack of functioning smoke detectors and fire extinguishers... and the people in the office raise these concerns about how the batteries in the smoke detector REALLY need to be changed and how the building should meet code... and the office manager says "tough shit, I full faith in our office's ability to deal with a fire" or whatever. So then you go throw a fork in the microwave to start a fire to "shed light on the problem and how dangerous it is" and cause thousands of dollars of fire damage...
...you cannot defend throwing a fork in the microwave with "well, isn't the bigger deal that a little fire caused so much damage because there were no fire extinguishers nearby as required by code??? I mean, if I had done that at the building next door which is brand new and has everything working correctly, it wouldn't cause any harm. And, you know, one of our competitors easily could have come over here and thrown a fork in the microwave too... there's nothing stopping them..."
YES... it IS a problem that the building is not up to code and the office manager refuses to address the problem.
NO... that DOES NOT mean throwing a fork in the microwave to "send a message" and cause damage to the office is appropriate behavior or a smart decision.
This is all very simple, and this is not a difference of opinion. The opinion that believes the alum taking out the ad 1) isn't a big deal 2) has a positive effect and no negative effect 3) is a valid choice because (insert mitigating circumstance) is flat wrong.
Rocket89
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Dying at Lax's fork in the microwave analogy.
DomeX2 eNVy
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After watching Miami (O) blow a nice lead to a more talented team; have horrible clock management down the stretch; and then lose on a special teams play; I feel Chuck Martin is finally ready to replace Kelly. Classic example of student imitating the master.
Dying at Lax's fork in the microwave analogy.
Throwing phork in the microwave does have merit.