What's the number? Scholies

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
Messages
7,295
Reaction score
555
Excepting OL, if a guy hasn't broken into the two-deep by his senior year, he's very unlikely to become a major contributor. Welch may very well make the two-deep and have a productive season, but he'll have to stay healthy and hold off Koyack to do it.

No argument there. If there's a Signing Day numbers crunch, I could see Welch being left out. But I think we agree that, if the last two cycles are any indication, there most likely won't be a numbers crunch.
 

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
Messages
7,295
Reaction score
555
I'm thinking a higher amount of 5th years: Wood, Moore, Lombard, Collinsworth, Utopo, Welch

Oh that's a really interesting pick ... the way the staff has been talking about him, I could see it happening, but we'll have to see him prove his worth on the field.

If Utupo does become a reliable two-deep DE, he might be more likely to come back than Welch, just based on the lack of depth at DE as opposed to TE. Right?
 

Whiskeyjack

Mittens Margaritas Ante Porcos
Staff member
Messages
20,894
Reaction score
8,126
No argument there. If there's a Signing Day numbers crunch, I could see Welch being left out. But I think we agree that, if the last two cycles are any indication, there most likely won't be a numbers crunch.

That's why I predicted 5 5Ys (which includes both Welch and Collinsworth). But I'd still argue he's borderline. If we put together another monster recruiting class, or Tuitt comes back, or Welch gets injured/ passed, etc., he might not make the cut. Lombard, Moore and Wood aren't in the same precarious situation.

Oh that's a really interesting pick ... the way the staff has been talking about him, I could see it happening, but we'll have to see him prove his worth on the field.

If Utupo does become a reliable two-deep DE, he might be more likely to come back than Welch, just based on the lack of depth at DE as opposed to TE. Right?

AFAIK, Utupo is still a one-dimensional pass-rusher; he's just bulked up a bit so he can line up as a DE. I've seen no indication that he'll be a functional DL on standard downs.
 
Last edited:
B

Bogtrotter07

Guest
They're expecting Tuitt to go pro; my analysis didn't make that assumption (still think he's a coin flip to return, though). So that's 1 more potential scholarship. Beyond that, they're probably estimating fewer 5Ys than I am.

Seniors with eligibility remaining beyond this season: Hendrix, Massa, Welch, Heggie, Lombard, Utupo, Nix, Moore, Wood, Collinsworth.

Lombard is a lock; Moore and Wood are very likely. Welch and Collinsworth are borderline.

If I'm feeling very bullish about our recruiting prospects, I'd estimate only 3 5Ys. But we have underestimated the # of returning 5Ys every year since Kelly took over. We either whiff on some elite prospects down the stretch, or we get hit with some unforeseeable attrition in the off-season. So I'm sticking with 5 for now.

Unh uh! Welch is going to be a keeper.
 

Emcee77

latress on the men-jay
Messages
7,295
Reaction score
555
AFAIK, Utupo is still a one-dimensional pass-rusher; he's just bulked up a bit so he can line up as a DE. I've seen no indication that he'll be a functional DL on standard downs.

No, no one has, but Kelly did say at some point in the spring or early summer that Utupo will push for playing time this year. When coaches say stuff like that, you never know if it's real though. I mean, didn't the coaches say a few springs ago that Deion Walker was really coming around? As it turned out, he wasn't. So this is basically me wishing based on an isolated comment by Kelly but I hope it turns out to be true that DE is the right fit for Utupo and he becomes a productive second-line player who can give Day a blow from time to time. But we won't know till the season starts.
 
Last edited:

NDdomer2

Local Sports vBookie
Messages
17,050
Reaction score
3,875
No, no one has, but Kelly did say at some point in the spring or early summer that Utupo will push for playing time this year. When coaches say stuff like that, you never know if it's real though. I mean, didn't the coaches say a few springs ago that Deion Walker was really coming around? As it turned out, he wasn't. So this is basically me wishing based on an isolated comment by Kelly but I hope it turns out to be true that DE is the right fit for Utupo and he becomes a productive second-line player who can give Day a blow from time to time. But we won't know till the season starts.

i remember him saying that about walker but struggling to remember timing. some guys are spring ball warriors so maybe the staff felt he was at time of comment but agree it was a fluke
 

stlnd01

Was away. Now returned.
Messages
13,386
Reaction score
10,247
Every year since Kelly arrived we've taken back more 5Ys than anticipated.
Every year we've had likely draft-jumpers who decide to come back.
Every year we've lost random transfers and dropouts to depth chart/academics/pot/hometown honies.
Every year we've had late defections from our recruiting class.
Every year we've had schollies to give to walk-ons come spring.
At some point, we'll learn to stop trying to play the roster management game and just figure it works out by Labor Day weekend.
Until then, have at it...
 

CincyDamer

New member
Messages
126
Reaction score
4
So with badger transferring....

How many schollies do we have total now?

And how many for this class? Thought I saw 25 being thrown around on here
 

NDWorld247

New member
Messages
2,474
Reaction score
302
So with badger transferring....

How many schollies do we have total now?

And how many for this class? Thought I saw 25 being thrown around on here

85 scholarships - 58 returning players = 27 scholarships available

27 scholarships available - X 5Y players returning = X scholarships available for 2014 class

5Y candidates (IMO): Lombard (lock), Collinsworth (lock), Hendrix (lock), Moore (likely), Wood (likely), Welch (50/50), Heggie (gone), Massa (gone), Utupo (gone).

If we brought back five 5Y, we would have 22 scholarships available for 2014 class. More attrition is likely though.
 
K

koonja

Guest
85 scholarships - 58 returning players = 27 scholarships available

27 scholarships available - X 5Y players returning = X scholarships available for 2014 class

5Y candidates (IMO): Lombard (lock), Collinsworth (lock), Hendrix (lock), Moore (likely), Wood (likely), Welch (50/50), Heggie (gone), Massa (gone), Utupo (gone).

If we brought back five 5Y, we would have 22 scholarships available for 2014 class. More attrition is likely though.

You think Collinsworth will be back? With Baratti being back, Shummate and Redfield presumably starting and Hardy still on the bench, not sure we need him.
 

NDWorld247

New member
Messages
2,474
Reaction score
302
You think Collinsworth will be back? With Baratti being back, Shummate and Redfield presumably starting and Hardy still on the bench, not sure we need it?

As I just posted in the Fall Camp thread, I don't see how you don't bring back a returning starter. The staff seems to love him too. After Lombard and Hendrix, he's the 3rd most likely to return, IMO.

And you never know what can happen to a position's depth between January and August. You can go from having position strength to weakness with one injury and a transfer.
 

NDdomer2

Local Sports vBookie
Messages
17,050
Reaction score
3,875
You think Collinsworth will be back? With Baratti being back, Shummate and Redfield presumably starting and Hardy still on the bench, not sure we need him.

really? right after a fall camp where we had one go down for the year and another transfer you don't think we would bring back the current starter?
 
K

koonja

Guest
really? right after a fall camp where we had one go down for the year and another transfer you don't think we would bring back the current starter?

I just think once Shummate gets the position down, he's going to start over Colinsworth. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens by game 4.

And I personally believe Baratti is better when healthy, presumably pushing Colinsworth to the 2/3 role next year.

I just think he's a playbook and a shoulder injury away from being 3rd string right now.
 
Last edited:

FightingIrishLover7

All troll, no substance
Messages
12,705
Reaction score
7,517
I just think once Shummate gets the position down, he's going to start over Colinsworth. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens by game 4.

And I personally believe Baratti is better when healthy, presumably pushing Colinsworth to the 2/3 role next year.

Even if that does happen, he'd be an amazing insurance policy and an invaluable member on special teams.
 

CincyDamer

New member
Messages
126
Reaction score
4
We have 16 players committed. So, we have 11 more spots for 5Y's and 2014 commits.

My bad for making this confusing. I'm talking current team. Lost badger and ev. Just thinking we have to be the lightest scholarship wise out of the top ranked teams
 

stlnd01

Was away. Now returned.
Messages
13,386
Reaction score
10,247
I just think once Shummate gets the position down, he's going to start over Colinsworth. I wouldn't be surprised if this happens by game 4.

And I personally believe Baratti is better when healthy, presumably pushing Colinsworth to the 2/3 role next year.

I just think he's a playbook and a shoulder injury away from being 3rd string right now.

Agree with you about Shumate. He's a better athlete. Can't tell about Baratti. But I still think Collinsworth is back regardless. He's a special teams stud, by all accounts a good locker room guy, and if he logs significant minutes this year (which he likely will no matter who's "starting") he'll have experience in his corner. If they took back Tyler Stockton and John Goodman, they'll take back Austin Collinsworth.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Decent article on the scholarship situation. Nothing earth shattering, just a nice summary of the moving parts. I disagree on a placement or two, but good overall. I did enjoy the piece about five star Phil contributing to the rise in performance of our DBs.

Below is the text, follow the link for the two charts.
https://www.onefootdown.com/2018/11...rs-crunch-for-2019-transfer-nfl-draft-players

At this point, we have 93 for 85 slots (-8), and still going after at least two more (Asa Turner, Foskey) that could put us at 95 for 85 (-10).

Notre Dame Football Recruiting: The Scholarship Numbers Crunch For 2019

Now that the regular season is over for the Notre Dame Fighting Irish, we can really start to take a much closer look at the Notre Dame roster and 2019 recruiting class.

Staying within the 85 scholarship limit was going to be a huge challenge for the Irish this recruiting cycle after signing 27 players in last year’s class. That aggressive move made it tight this past summer, but it also was the reason that Notre Dame entered the 2018 season with 85 scholarship players for the first time in at least 15 years.

Why is that so important? Well, forgetting about the constant need for quality depth and the advantages of developing players into steady contributors as upperclassmen — a major college football team needs quality practice players to help compete against the best in the country.

Despite the love affair most of us have with Notre Dame’s walk-on program, it will never be as solid as Big State U for obvious reasons. It’s critical for the Irish to maximize its 85 spots and supplement as best they can with the preferred walk-on program. Practice players make a team better, and you don’t need to watch Rudy to come to that realization.

Think about this... Phil Jurkovec, a blue-chip freshman quarterback that many see as the next BIG thing at Notre Dame was relegated to the scout team quarterback this year. His job was to give the Irish defense the best possible look they could receive each week as they prepared for their opponent.

I’d venture to say that Notre Dame’s rise in pass efficiency defense ranking from 79th in 2017 to 4th this season was helped by Jurkovec. In 2017, the scout team quarterback was now running back Avery Davis.

All of that was the long way of saying that roster management is important.

As of right now, Notre Dame has 93 players for 85 spots in 2019. That’s 8 spots over the scholarship limit, and the Irish still seem to be recruiting Asa Turner and Isaiah Foskey very hard.

Of the 8 spots needed to open up in 2019, only 4 players can really be considered as “probable” to transfer or leave for the NFL.

Brandon Wimbush
Javon McKinley
Micah Dew-Treadway
Alize Mack

Wimbush, MDT, and McKinley will most likely transfer to find playing time somewhere else (and all three would have graduated from Notre Dame beforehand). It’s widely known that Mack wants to enter the NFL Draft this year despite another year of college football available to help his draft stock.


After those 4, there is another list of candidates that could leave Notre Dame either by transfer or via the NFL Draft. It includes:

Chase Claypool
Miles Boykin
Julian Love
Donte Vaughn
Devin Studstill
D.J. Morgan
Jonathon Jones
Khalid Kareem
Julian Okwara

All nine of those players in 2019 will ether be a senior or eligible for a fifth year. For now, I will only (mildly) speculate on those veteran players.

It’s a tough conversation to have every year, but Notre Dame doesn’t do roster management like the Alabama’s and Ohio State’s of the world — so we can at least take comfort in the fact that this is all mostly handled with class and respect.

The current recruiting class has 22 commitments, but 2 of those commitments don’t count towards the 85 in 2019. 3 Star kicker Harrison Leonard accepted a position as a preferred walk-on (which is pretty dope for a 3 star kicker). An even bigger deal is that 4 Star linebacker J.D. Bertrand committed to Notre Dame without a scholarship offer.

For Bertrand, the word is that he will come on as a walk-on until the first available spot opens up — at the latest before the 2020 season. There’s also a rumor that linebacker commit Jack Kiser may get a Lilly scholarship which would cover him for 4 years at Notre Dame.

All of that seems pretty tight and complicated, and it gets even more so with the recruitments of Asa Turner and Isaiah Foskey. Turner is currently a commit to the Washington Huskies, but Notre Dame is really going after him hard. Foskey is considered a heavy Notre Dame lean right now, and some expect him to sign with Notre Dame in December rather than make a commitment in February.

This, of course, is an ongoing conversation — and one that won’t have much resolution anytime soon. It wasn’t until this past summer that Notre Dame finally got down to 85 scholarships for 2018.

It’s a bit stressful, but it’s also the sign of a healthy program. Notre Dame is recruiting well, and they are managing their roster well. All of that means there is a strong foundation for success moving forward. After a 12-0 regular season, the future looks very bright for Notre Dame.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Decent freebie from Rivals on the 5th years.

While playoff fever will be at the forefront at Notre Dame this December, the Fighting Irish coaching staff also will engage more earnestly in roster management for the 2019 campaign.

Topics such as who will or won’t return for a fifth season of eligibility, juniors who will submit his application for feedback on his NFL draft status, and how to get the scholarship number to the NCAA limit of 85 by next season will be on the back burner.

Currently, the roster number for 2019, when including verbal commits for next season, is at 94, with the breakdown as follows:

• Eight seniors who have a fifth year of eligibility remaining in 2019: quarterback Brandon Wimbush, receivers Miles Boykin and Chris Finke, tight end Alize Mack, offensive guard/center Trevor Ruhland, defensive tackle Micah Dew-Treadway, rover/linebacker Asmar Bilal and cornerback/nickel Shaun Crawford.

• 20 juniors — the top overall class on the team in talent/impact.

All the starters in the secondary, led by Jim Thorpe finalist Julian Love, are from this class, as is the dynamic defensive end trio of Khalid Kareem, Julian Okwara and Daelin Hayes. On offense, quarterback Ian Book, running back Tony Jones Jr., receiver Chase Claypool and linemen Tommy Kraemer and Liam Eichenberg have improved throughout the year.

• 18 sophomores, with right tackle Robert Hainsey the mainstay , and tight end Cole Kmet and running back Jafar Armstrong making initial inroads to major future roles.

• 27 freshmen, although few were needed during the 12-0 regular season to play a significant amount of time. Nickel Houston Griffith played the most snaps on either side of the ball with 183.

• 21 verbal commitments, with the early signing date on Wednesday, Dec. 19 and the wrap up on Feb. 6, 2019. There is a desire to add at least two more players to the final list.

Thus, including the 21 current verbals, the number stands at 94, meaning there will be a subtraction of at least nine by the time the 2019 season commences on Sept. 2 (Labor Day) at Louisville next season.



Fifth-Year Players Most Likely To Return (4)

Among the eight fifth-year senior candidates, the four that appear most likely to return are Finke, Ruhland, Bilal and Crawford.

Head coach Brian Kelly already has stated that Crawford will return in 2019 after having missed three of his first seasons with a litany of injury setbacks (which actually makes him eligible for a sixth season as well in 2020).

Finke and Bilal started throughout the 2018 campaign, with Finke’s 47 catches (two for touchdowns) for 547 yards both ranking third on the team. He also is 18th nationally in punt return average at 10.3.

Bilal quietly ranked sixth on the team this season in tackles (46), and there is a chance he could move to Buck linebacker just as predecessor Drue Tranquill did after playing rover in 2017.

Neither Finke nor Bilal would be considered a prime NFL prospect now, but with another year of growth in the college game, their chances could increase appreciably.

Ruhland started five games this season at guard and likely would be considered the front-runner to succeed three-year starter Sam Mustipher at center in 2019. He is the lone remaining member of the Irish offensive line class from the 2015 recruiting haul, and his versatility and experience would be a valued asset.



Fifth-Year Players On The Bubble (4)

Recent history suggests that quarterbacks don’t return for a fifth season to be backups. During the Kelly era, Dayne Crist (Kansas), Andrew Hendrix (Miami (Ohio)), Everett Golson (Florida State) and Malik Zaire (Florida) all used their fifth season elsewhere. Wimbush, who reportedly is on schedule to receive his accounting degree this December, would logically seem to be on that path because of the emergence this season of Book and the future promise of current freshman Phil Jurkovec.

The natural reply is maybe Wimbush’s rushing talents can lead to a position switch to running back (a la current sophomore Avery Davis, who also enrolled as a QB) or receiver (a la Arnaz Battle and Carlyle Holiday at the turn of this century), but it’s not that easy with only one year left. The nuances as a ground gainer at quarterback and running back are completely different, and Battle had a full one season of apprenticeship at receiver before he played regularly.

Dew-Treadway also would have a back-up role along the defensive line, but the combination of the current numbers crunch and the return of an interior rotation that likely will feature current sophomores Kurt Hinish, and Myron Tagovailoa-Amosa, plus current freshman Jayson Ademilola and, hopefully, a recovered freshman Ja’Mion Franklin, might make it difficult, unless the staff believes it needs an insurance policy there.

Tight end Mack, who had a career high 34 catches for 349 yards and three touchdowns this year, has long eyed the pros, and taking advantage of the opportunity now would be in the cards.

Boykin might have the toughest decision among everyone. He has flourished with a wonderful senior season that saw him lead the Irish in receptions (54), receiving yards (803) and touchdown catches (8) … but could his stock rise even more with another season in coordinator Chip Long’s attack? At the same time, older brother George III had his promising athletic career derailed by a concussion. Will that help prompt a decision to make a run for the NFL with a chance still available?

Either way, quite a bit of attrition is going to have to be inevitable to get to 85 scholarships by the start of next season.
 

NewEnglandGuy

Best of the Rest
Messages
964
Reaction score
196
Just thought an update would be helpful after the Jahmir Smith news today.

Players who has left since 2020:
-Bartleson class of 2020
-Olmstead class of 2019
-Jurkovec, Mabry, and Smith class of 2018
-Robertson and JGH class of 2017
-Speights class of 2016

Current Scholarships on 2020 Roster - 83
17 Freshmen
21 Sophomores
21 Juniors
15 Seniors
9 5th/6th

There are 19 current 2021 commits with continued effort in recruiting another safety, cornerback, and maybe another "best player available." LB Kahanu Kia plans to take a LDS mission and therefore will not be a counter until 2023 if he commits.

If the recruiting class ended up at 22, there would be 81 Freshmen through Seniors in 2021 before adding in grad students.

In a non covid year, the discussion would then focus on possible 5th years and likely additional roster turn over to get to 85. In 2021 and beyond, until updates are given by NCAA, the "number" is unknown and roster fluidity may be at a level not previously experienced when combined with new one-time waivers for all transfers.

-Wright, Hainsey, Hinish, and Doerer gain 5th year eligibility with their senior classmates if so desired. In turn, the other 11 seniors with an additional year of eligibility could take a 6th year in 2022.

-Lastly, the nine 5th and 6th, Crawford, year players could come back for a 6th or 7th year in 2021.

-Least likely to use any of this additional time include NFL prospects such as JOK, Eichenberg, and Kraemer to name a few.
 

stpeteirish

House Skeptic
Messages
4,324
Reaction score
1,819
yeah the usual game of trying to look at next year's roster is basically impossible this year with everyone getting another year. Even guys like McCloud and Skowronek could be back.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
So 24 signed, BK saying 3 more...

How many did we expect. I seem to recall 21ish?

Wonder how many transfers out we expect. Or just a product of Covid rule changes.

And here's the info on the blanket transfer waiver

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-b...orts-get-blanket-waiver-ncaa-play-immediately
Division I transfers for all sports get blanket waiver from NCAA, can play immediately

Does this mean, like the basket example they used, that kids can transfer now to the FB team and play in the CFP lol.
 
Last edited:
Top