Walker Wins Wis Recall, Obama Wins Exit Poll

[Whiskeyjack]

Wisconsin's Recall Election: it don't mean much.

 

[Old Man Mike]

I as a former teacher, whose friends are in the main former teachers, and whose brother and sister-in-law are extremely hard-working math teachers who have just been reamed by Ohio's government, would like to thank everyone commenting above on how overprivileged we all are and how we do little to earn our salaries. I might say something about the endless evening hours of course preparation, the weekends given up, the summer research hours, the "volunteer" public service which is structurally almost required, the grief of having to put up with countless immature non-adults feeling privileged, .... but I won't mention those, because they seem inharmonious with the trend of the discussion. Still, as I took seriously a responsibility to aid in the growing up of thousands of young Americans throughout my career, I will take a little solace that my life was not just one incompetent waste and a rip-off of everyone else. Doubtless many disagree. And it was largely, of course, because we were in some form of union.



The extremities of language and broad-brush smearing of entire elements of our society stuns me.

p.s. even at the end of a thirty year teaching career as a full professor with tenure who had won the teaching excellence award, my salary was $70,000. You can imagine what it was when I started.

 

[luckyfc]

My thoughts on fixing education: education is a privlege, if you do not want to be there, then do not go - however, you will receive zero government assistance without a HS degree (exception mentally challenged).
My thoughts on fixing government: make it minuscule in scope, fully adhering to the constitution, and get out of the way of individual success and individual freedom.

 

[Bluto]

I as a former teacher, whose friends are in the main former teachers, and whose brother and sister-in-law are extremely hard-working math teachers who have just been reamed by Ohio's government, would like to thank everyone commenting above on how overprivileged we all are and how we do little to earn our salaries. I might say something about the endless evening hours of course preparation, the weekends given up, the summer research hours, the "volunteer" public service which is structurally almost required, the grief of having to put up with countless immature non-adults feeling privileged, .... but I won't mention those, because they seem inharmonious with the trend of the discussion. Still, as I took seriously a responsibility to aid in the growing up of thousands of young Americans throughout my career, I will take a little solace that my life was not just one incompetent waste and a rip-off of everyone else. Doubtless many disagree. And it was largely, of course, because we were in some form of union.



The extremities of language and broad-brush smearing of entire elements of our society stuns me.

p.s. even at the end of a thirty year teaching career as a full professor with tenure who had won the teaching excellence award, my salary was $70,000. You can imagine what it was when I started.

God bless you Old Man Mike and thanks for all your hard work trying to make this a better world to live in. Anyhow, I'm too tired from working so no more posting for me. Read Thomas Frank's Whats the Matter With Kansas and the Wrecking Crew and Invisible Hands by Kim Phillips-Fein if you want some interesting perspectives on this subject.

 

[dshans]

I as a former teacher, whose friends are in the main former teachers, and whose brother and sister-in-law are extremely hard-working math teachers ... even at the end of a thirty year teaching career as a full professor with tenure who had won the teaching excellence award, my salary was $70,000. You can imagine what it was when I started.

I commend and thank you for your service. Many are called ...

 

[dshans]

My thoughts on fixing education: education is a privlege, if you do not want to be there, then do not go - however, you will receive zero government assistance without a HS degree (exception mentally challenged).
My thoughts on fixing government: make it minuscule in scope, fully adhering to the constitution, and get out of the way of individual success and individual freedom.

Quite the enlightening nutshell. Care to elaborate?

 

[Bluto]

Ok one more post I know you all are dying to hear more. Anyhow interesting article on a study examining union membership and income distribution. Seems like unions are good for all workers.

Daily Kos: Declining union membership contributes to rising income inequality, study finds

 

[Bluto]

That graph doesn't say what you think it says -- the downward trending line isn't "middle class income" but rather their share of national income. Middle class income has risen, in real dollars, over that period.

CNN Money thinks you are wrong. Article says middle class incomes barely budged since the 70's then fell from 2000 to 2010

Middle-class income fell in the last decade - Sep. 21, 2011

 

[Bluto]

So the middle class is now poorer and has a smaller share of the nations total wealth. Awesome!

 

[pkt77242]

That graph doesn't say what you think it says -- the downward trending line isn't "middle class income" but rather their share of national income. Middle class income has risen, in real dollars, over that period.

This shows how income has stagnated for the majority of Americans. In 1988 the average income in inflation adjusted income was $33,400 and in 2008 it was $33,000.

How the middle class became the underclass - Feb. 16, 2011

 

[BobD]

I as a former teacher, whose friends are in the main former teachers, and whose brother and sister-in-law are extremely hard-working math teachers who have just been reamed by Ohio's government, would like to thank everyone commenting above on how overprivileged we all are and how we do little to earn our salaries. I might say something about the endless evening hours of course preparation, the weekends given up, the summer research hours, the "volunteer" public service which is structurally almost required, the grief of having to put up with countless immature non-adults feeling privileged, .... but I won't mention those, because they seem inharmonious with the trend of the discussion. Still, as I took seriously a responsibility to aid in the growing up of thousands of young Americans throughout my career, I will take a little solace that my life was not just one incompetent waste and a rip-off of everyone else. Doubtless many disagree. And it was largely, of course, because we were in some form of union.



The extremities of language and broad-brush smearing of entire elements of our society stuns me.

p.s. even at the end of a thirty year teaching career as a full professor with tenure who had won the teaching excellence award, my salary was $70,000. You can imagine what it was when I started.

This is why I think we need a "pay for performance" program for public school teachers. We need to be able to properly compensate teachers like Mike and get rid of the non-performers.

 

[ACamp1900]

This is why I think we need a "pay for performance" program for public school teachers. We need to be able to properly compensate teachers like Mike and get rid of the non-performers.

Like Mike, I too have been honored for my services, Teachers Are Heros gave me some award in August of 2008... and in recognition of this I was let go later that same year (school year) because the contract stated seniority over performance... eh...

I'm better off though, I like higher ed. much better than K-6.

Teachers go through a lot and often (as demostrated) fail to receive the respect deserved... the education and training needed in some states is comparable to what doctors have to go through... but the unions are in fact one of the stronger forces holding back much needed change... what a web we've weaved.

 

[BobD]

I know it's going way away from the original topic of this thread, but since we have some teachers contributing comments, I have a question for you all.

How do you feel about schools being responsible for cooking and serving meals, maintaining sports programs or many other extracurricular activities?

Ever since the economic crisis here in California has nearly crippled the public school system, I've been thinking it's amazing what schools have become. That old one room school house with desks, a blackboard, books and a teacher has become among other things, a full service cafeteria and some amazing sports complexes. In this day of shrinking budgets and with the state of our public school system....should we get back to the basics and return schools to being just that, a school?

 

[SaltyND24]

If teachers are mere babysitters, pay them accordingly | Get Schooled

Something that was passed on to me about a year ago...I find it to be funny...

 

[Bluto]

I know it's going way away from the original topic of this thread, but since we have some teachers contributing comments, I have a question for you all.

How do you feel about schools being responsible for cooking and serving meals, maintaining sports programs or many other extracurricular activities?

Ever since the economic crisis here in California has nearly crippled the public school system, I've been thinking it's amazing what schools have become. That old one room school house with desks, a blackboard, books and a teacher has become among other things, a full service cafeteria and some amazing sports complexes. In this day of shrinking budgets and with the state of our public school system....should we get back to the basics and return schools to being just that, a school?

If you're sincerely interested in how California became all screwed up I would highly recommend reading Paradise Lost by Peter Schrag and Cadillac Desert by a person whose name escapes me.

 

[RDU Irish]

Like Mike, I too have been honored for my services, Teachers Are Heros gave me some award in August of 2008... and in recognition of this I was let go later that same year (school year) because the contract stated seniority over performance... eh...

I'm better off though, I like higher ed. much better than K-6.

Teachers go through a lot and often (as demostrated) fail to receive the respect deserved... the education and training needed in some states is comparable to what doctors have to go through... but the unions are in fact one of the stronger forces holding back much needed change... what a web we've weaved.

Regarding the italics, all walks of life fail to receive the respect they deserve. I have met very few people who think they deserve less than they get.

OMM - H.S. Math teachers are hard to come by because most people qualified can get paid more in the private sector. It is fairly ridiculous that a Kindergarten teacher is paid the same as a High School Math teacher if all else is held equal (i.e. experience/degrees). Math and Science in this country stink because the invisible hand moves most people with your background and experience to higher paying jobs elsewhere.

Conversely, I wonder if you have done the math on the value of your pension and benefits. With 30 years, I suspect you are around 2/3rds of your salary in pension, then add in SS and you might be making more in retirement than you were working, without ever needed to put away a dime of you own money! I agree that $70K is under paid for a top notch math teacher, however I also believe it is high for even the best kindergarten teacher. I agree with ACamp's bolded statement in this regard. I also wonder if you didn't retire 30 years ago, in which case that is a pretty good salary. (note italics font for the below belt old joke)

I am one who comes off as slamming teachers in this board. Far from it, I think they do great work. I wouldn't last a week in any classroom. What you are seeing is incredible blowback from a catatonic public suddenly realizing what decades of incrimentalism has done to the total compensation packages of (what are suppose to be) public servants.

 

[Rizzophil]

Um Jesus would never vote republican, because he's a socialist.

I can't tell if you are trying to be funny or serious. I would encourage you to read, read, and re-read the book of Proverbs. It is all about personal responsibility, personal, investment, hard work, and personal accountability.

 

[Rizzophil]

Wisconsin's Recall Election: it don't mean much.

I personally don't see how anyone in the media can spin the Walker win as positive for Obama. I really don't care what the exit data says either. It's just spin.

Use a little common sense. Think about it, if Obama was going to cruise through WI, why didn't he try to defeat Walker personally. All Obama did was tweet one thing about WI.

WI has been trending Red for the last five years now and I expect it to continue. Dems are in trouble in WI.

Furthermore, union membership is down to 22,000 from 68,000. Teachers want to be in control of their own money.

Unfortunately for the Dems, the lack of membership is going to reduce union dues. The union's won't give their money to Dems for re-election campaigning.

 

[irishpat183]

For those of you barking about the disrespect teachers receive from those that are against unions, I understand that. Especially if you are from the old school way.

However, times have changed. It's no longer difficult to get a teaching degree....in fact...it's a joke. Teaching, actually comprises of the LOWEST test scorers on college entrance exams. While tests aren't everything, it does count. So the kids that will one day be teaching my kids, are scoring the lowest? Gives that whole "Those who can't, teach...and those that can't teach, teach gym" some crediblity these days.

I have a few teachers in my life that helped shape the person I am today, and I'm thankful for that...Here's a great read...

Shouldn’t Teachers Make More Money?: A Supply and Demand View

 

[Old Man Mike]

I retired in 2001. The $70,000 that I received from WMU that year made me high on the relative pay scale, because I had received bonus additions to my salary from the Teaching Excellence Award and several merit pay additions because of consistently high quality work in teaching, scholarship, and academic and community service. Others who did less were well under that number. I served as Chairman &/or member of the Kalamazoo County Solid Waste Management Committee [a non-paid volunteer position] for about 15 years, setting up the county's recycling program during that era, and manning the first volunteer drop-off points for more than a year while we got data on the potential of the program. I was editor of an academic journal for six years, and board member of several organizations. I was the student academic advisor as an overload, spending sometimes even weekends and at my home to get students the help they needed. --- yeh RDU, figure in all that retirement money, I surely didn't earn it. And yes, you DO sound like you're slamming teachers regardless of what you say --- skip the italics about the old jokes.

Add-on: Bob--- As an idealistic teacher, I have thought that the lumbering of the school system all the way from middle schools on through universities with competitive sports programs was a colossal historical mistake, and that such things in a utopian society would be the product of local communities with the school systems responsible only for physical education. But a moments thought tells you that such an idea is tantamount to a snowball's chance in He!l. High school sports and coaching and facilities et al are a huge number in the budget line items, but they aren't going anywhere. The meals programs are an entirely different matter. Many schools are literally miles away from the homes of the kids. Bringing a brown paper sack isn't the best solution to nutrition. Neither is: Aw, just let them get sick.
There are many historical patterns which could change for the better. One prominent one would be either year-round school, or close-the-northern-schools in the winter and go in the summer [Energy costs]. As to the good or bad of unions: depends on the specific union and the specific issue. When I came to WMU, there was no union. The administration forced it by giving the faculty and staff no salary raises for three years, while raising their own. WMU dropped to lowest salary grade in comparison with other Michigan schools of equal size and academic complexity. Through the union we got back to more or less equal footing. Of course some on this board state that we were all overpaid so it's a moot point.

 

[RDU Irish]

If teachers are mere babysitters, pay them accordingly | Get Schooled

Something that was passed on to me about a year ago...I find it to be funny...

I find this to be funny too. Obviously written by someone with zero practical business training or experience.

1) No adjustments for overhead. I see less than half of the revenue my business generates after paying all of the bills. My father was a superintendant of schools, even before administration, janitors and personnel "overhead" you have to buy busses, gas, heat the building, budget for capital projects, etc, etc. Not free.

2) She assigns all revenue to one teacher. What about the art, PE, music, spanish, lunch and recess supervisors (at least that is how many different teachers are watching my 2nd and pre-K kids every week while the home room teacher gets prep time and breaks)? So we need to pay more like five teachers per day per kid, now we are up to $100 a day. And let's throw in principals, guidance counselors and office administration who have daily contact with them as well.

3) That $105,000 is how much the average Milwaukee Public School teacher is paid in total compensation (pay + benefits)

4) By the same logic, a CEO with 10,000 employees should make more than $80,000 an hour if minimum wage is $8. We all know they only work 20 hours a week so $1.6 million for an average CEO week is really the minimum we should allow as a fair society.

5) I would gladly pay $20 per day for daycare if I could find it. I just paid $840 for someone to watch my two kids for eight total days, that is $11.67/hour. Thanks to government regulations, it is surprisingly complex to get paid to care for children. In that respect, school is much cheaper. We pay $12,000 to send two kids for 180 days of school with zero subsidy from the church and $1400 per kid servicing debt from the construction of the place. At 8hrs a day for 180 days that is $8.33/hour or $4.16 per child. Now if I add up book fees, lunch costs and all the pocket picking that happens every week the costs go up a bit closer to the $8000 per child public schools spend (which equates to $5.56/hour per child on the same 180 days/ 8hrs per day). That is for 25 kids in a class with one teacher and one aid up to fourth grade, 500 total students K-8.

6) With 500 kids at $6K each, tuition revenue is $3 million plus another $1 million of revenue from other fees, donations and PTO. With about 50 employees averaging $50K total comp, that equals $2.5 million of salary costs for over 60% of expenses. The debt service is $750,000 per year. This leaves $750,000 per year for all of the other expenses (roughly 20% of the budget). Just to give some perspective on the real numbers behind a real (private) school. In order to pay $100K total comp on average, we would either have to raise tuition $5K per kid or cut half the staff. Thankfully we don't have to because there are an abundance of teachers lined up any time we have an opening.

7) A parent complained about our student:teacher ratio of 25:1 asking why we couldn't be like another local private school with an 8:1 ratio. The principal replied, "their tuition is $18K, ours is $6K." That was taken as a snarky response. You are right OMM, Math teachers are a neglected commodity in this country.

 

[irishpat183]

I retired in 2001. The $70,000 that I received from WMU that year made me high on the relative pay scale, because I had received bonus additions to my salary from the Teaching Excellence Award and several merit pay additions because of consistently high quality work in teaching, scholarship, and academic and community service. Others who did less were well under that number. I served as Chairman &/or member of the Kalamazoo County Solid Waste Management Committee [a non-paid volunteer position] for about 15 years, setting up the county's recycling program during that era, and manning the first volunteer drop-off points for more than a year while we got data on the potential of the program. I was editor of an academic journal for six years, and board member of several organizations. I was the student academic advisor as an overload, spending sometimes even weekends and at my home to get students the help they needed. --- yeh RDU, figure in all that retirement money, I surely didn't earn it. And yes, you DO sound like you're slamming teachers regardless of what you say --- skip the italics about the old jokes.

This is why I'm so angry about the state of teaching these days.....Guys like you don't exist anymore.

 

[irishpat183]

And it's as if people think teachers don't get paid enough....I think it's right on target. Of course EVERYONE wants and thinks they deserve more money. On a side note, the teacher unemployment rate for public schools at only 2.1%. So it's not as if their hurting for jobs either.

Not only are they paid on par with most private sector workers, they get better health care and retirement packages (that are costing the states tons of money)

The reason people get so crazy about paying teachers more..is the emotional side of it. They teach your kids. They taught you. But try and look at the economic side of it. Teachers aren't doing all that bad.

 

[RDU Irish]

This shows how income has stagnated for the majority of Americans. In 1988 the average income in inflation adjusted income was $33,400 and in 2008 it was $33,000.

How the middle class became the underclass - Feb. 16, 2011

How exactly do you expect globalization to play out? As the world flattens and barriers to labor competition erode do you expect the poor of the world to sit idly by? The "poor" in the USA live well beyond the standard of living of 80% of the world's population. We feel it is morally reprehensible to deny citizens cable TV, XBoxes, cell phones and air conditioning. I tell clients the world is moving from huts to homes. Their standard of living is catching up to ours over decades when we took centuries to acheive the same. We represent 5% of the world population! Over half of S&P 500 profits are from overseas operations, as does 3/4ths of the growth in profits.

Cuba to abandon wage caps | World news | guardian.co.uk

Tell these Cubans making $20 a MONTH on average how bad we have it. You think they find an $8 minimum HOURLY wage to be greedy and obscene? Never ceases to amaze me the same folks lamenting the global environment undoubtedly think American workers are unfairly losing jobs to poor countries.

 

[ab2cmiller]

This is why I'm so angry about the state of teaching these days.....Guys like you don't exist anymore.

Many guys do exist like him, it's just the draw to get into and stay in teaching is a lot less then it was 30 years ago. Considering what they get paid for all the hours that they put in and what they have to put up with in class and dealing with many unsupportive parents it's getting harder and harder to attract top notch talent into teaching.

Yes, teachers get the summer off in many cases, but when my wife was teaching, she was literally putting in 12-13 hours a day, including weekends, teaching, grading, lesson planning, etc. For 9 months, all waking hours were consumed with work.

30 years ago, most kids had a level of respect or at least fear of their teachers. For whatever reason, kids today don't have that. You have kids getting in teachers faces physically challenging them and in some cases assaulting them.

I asked a friend of mine who recently retired as a Principal what was the biggest change over his teaching career. He said when he first started out, if you had a problem with Johnny, you could call the parents knowing that you would have their support and the issue could be taken care of. By the end of his career, if you called the parent, the response from the parent was rarely one of support, instead the response in many cases was one of you will punish my kid over my dead body.

There are many excellent teachers out there, but in to many cases, some of what would've been the best teachers are scared away from teaching, or attempt to teach for a number of years before getting tired of dealing with it and change careers.

 

[RDU Irish]

Bring back the paddle. Kids know you can't lay a hand on them and it shows. A fifty year old friend was talking about how they paddled kids in his high school in front of everyone in the lunch room. In my school I don't think it ever left the wall but its symbolized what could happen.

There have always been parents whose precious little Johnny could do no wrong, its just that these days they seem to be the vast majority. Kind of like what the unions do if you try to discipline any of their members. (oh yes I did)

 

[connor_in]

For those of you barking about the disrespect teachers receive from those that are against unions, I understand that. Especially if you are from the old school way.

However, times have changed. It's no longer difficult to get a teaching degree....in fact...it's a joke. Teaching, actually comprises of the LOWEST test scorers on college entrance exams. While tests aren't everything, it does count. So the kids that will one day be teaching my kids, are scoring the lowest? Gives that whole "Those who can't, teach...and those that can't teach, teach gym" some crediblity these days.

I have a few teachers in my life that helped shape the person I am today, and I'm thankful for that...Here's a great read...

Shouldn’t Teachers Make More Money?: A Supply and Demand View

I do not know how hard it is to get the actual teaching degree, but I will tell you the hoops you now have to jump thru to actually get the license and therefore the job in the state of Indiana have increased exponentially in the 15 years my since my wife got her 1st teaching job

 

[RDU Irish]

I do not know how hard it is to get the actual teaching degree, but I will tell you the hoops you now have to jump thru to actually get the license and therefore the job in the state of Indiana have increased exponentially in the 15 years my since my wife got her 1st teaching job

Which is exactly how entrenched special interests protect their turf.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Which is exactly how entrenched special interests protect their turf.

Precisely. When my wife got her certification, she didn't need any additional degrees (she had her B.A. in creative writing...) she just had to watch a bunch of online videos and take stupid quizzes at the end. Oh yeah, these videos cost about $10,000. Total protectionist racket in my view.

Private schools actually tend to pay less than private, in part because that's the natural market forces at work, and in part because those jobs are so much more desireable. (You can actually get rewarded based on performance, for example).

 

[RDU Irish]

Precisely. When my wife got her certification, she didn't need any additional degrees (she had her B.A. in creative writing...) she just had to watch a bunch of online videos and take stupid quizzes at the end. Oh yeah, these videos cost about $10,000. Total protectionist racket in my view.

Private schools actually tend to pay less than private, in part because that's the natural market forces at work, and in part because those jobs are so much more desireable. (You can actually get rewarded based on performance, for example).

If you mean private pays less than private you are exactly right. We do have to be more competitive on math and science but we can make up for it with elementary grades. Pay is lower but not necessarily that far off public but the benefits are night and day.

Same issues with old and new teachers though. It is so true what they say about teaching old dogs new tricks. Our computative math skills have been sub-par. The stats point to the long term early elementary grades which have pretty much all been at the school for ten years yet people try to blame it on the batch of middle school fresh hires brought in last year. Statistically, the newer, younger teachers have shown better improvement with the kids in this area versus the older entrenched crowd. The principal got tons of blow back when he went identified this problem and tried to work with them to make proactive changes. Public and private and pretty much all walks of life, people can be quite territorial!