Vatican Proposes Stunning Reforms

BGIF

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Vatican proposes 'stunning' shift on gays, lesbians – CNN Belief Blog - CNN.com Blogs

By Delia Gallagher, CNN
October 13th, 2014
11:09 AM ET


A pastoral earthquake

The Church's relationship with gays, lesbians, and divorced/remarried communicants are being discussed as well as the impact of poverty, war, and immigration on families.


“Regarding homosexuals, it went so far as to pose the question whether the church could accept and value their sexual orientation without compromising Catholic doctrine,” said John Thavis, a former Rome bureau chief for Catholic News Service.

...

The Catholic Catechism calls homosexual acts “intrinsically disordered” and calls on gays and lesbians to live in chastity. Under Pope Benedict XVI, the church had tried to purge men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" from the priesthood.

...

The report released on Monday, a summary of a week of closed-door discussions of nearly 200 bishops, cardinals and priests, together with Pope Francis, continues that trend.

The discussions continue this week and a final report will be issued at the end of the week.

The goal of this meeting, officially called the Extraordinary Synod of Bishops on the Family, is to present working proposals for a larger meeting to be held next October 2015.

...
 

GoldenDomer

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<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/e7qQ6_RV4VQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Irish8248

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Now if only the married and women can be priests ... id defn become a priest if it meant I could have a family
 

BGIF

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The rest of the world has already had this discussion and moved on. Better late than never I guess.

The rest of the world has already had this discussion and moved on. Hyperbolize much?

Muslims, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, ... that's a couple of billion that haven't moved on. Seems Appeals Courts and SCOTUS aren't in lockstep either.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Just read the article. Nothing new--at least doctrinally--has been proposed; just a softening of the Church's political stance towards the LGBT community (which is most welcome). We'll undoubtedly hear lots of hyperbolic language about it regardless:

The report firmly re-states the Catholic Church’s position that marriage is between a man and a woman and therefore, “unions between people of the same sex cannot be considered on the same footing as matrimony between a man and a woman.”

...

The synod discussions re-iterated the church’s “appropriate teaching regarding natural methods” of birth control.

Citing economic factors which sometimes contribute to the decision not to have children, the synod nonetheless states that “being open to life is an intrinsic requirement of married love.”
 

irishog77

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Just read the article. Nothing new--at least doctrinally--has been proposed; just a softening of the Church's political stance towards the LGBT community (which is most welcome). We'll undoubtedly hear lots of hyperbolic language about it regardless:

^ This.

I'm not sure if cnn actually knows what "stunning" means.
 

IrishMoore1

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The rest of the world has already had this discussion and moved on. Hyperbolize much?

Muslims, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, ... that's a couple of billion that haven't moved on. Seems Appeals Courts and SCOTUS aren't in lockstep either.

I'd just like to rebuttal with a list of several countries that have legalized gay marriage:
Argentina
Belgium
Brazil
Canada
Denmark:
France
Iceland
Luxembourg
Mexico:
· CA, DF, QR
Netherlands:
New Zealand
Norway
Portugal
South Africa
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom
United States*
Uruguay

*Gay marriage is legal in 29 states in the US. Last I checked, society in the above countries hasn't crumbled and regressed into chaos.
 
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Rack Em

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Just read the article. Nothing new--at least doctrinally--has been proposed; just a softening of the Church's political stance towards the LGBT community (which is most welcome). We'll undoubtedly hear lots of hyperbolic language about it regardless:

^ This.

I'm not sure if cnn actually knows what "stunning" means.

Yeah sorry to burst the bubble for some of you who want the Church to be San Francisco progressive.

Not happening. Being more welcoming? Yeah that could definitely come out of this.

Changing birth control stances? Nada.
Female priests? Nope.
Gay marriage? LOL.

The Catechism isn't getting an overhaul on sexual issues. It has been extremely consistent since reproductive technology/homosexuality/etc. burst onto the scene.
 

zelezo vlk

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^ This.

I'm not sure if cnn actually knows what "stunning" means.

CNN and most news outlets don't really understand the teachings of the Catholic church. Anytime the media runs a story on the Vatican, I take it with a huge grain of salt.
 

AdmiralBackhand

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Trying to normalize sin is a problem. Getting people who are gay to come to church could be a great thing, but not as a way to think they have a right to sin freely. Hate the sin and not the sinner.
 

BGIF

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^ This.

I'm not sure if cnn actually knows what "stunning" means.



The Catholic Catechism calls homosexual acts “intrinsically disordered” and calls on gays and lesbians to live in chastity. Under Pope Benedict XVI, the church had tried to purge men with "deep-seated homosexual tendencies" from the priesthood.

2000 year old policy. The Catechism was promulgated in 1992. Pope Benedict resigned 19 months ago.

Married couples most practice traditional methods of birth control, rhythm. Gays don't need birth control. Cohabiters live together because of economic hardship so they get a waiver?

Stunning is gross understatment.
 

IrishLax

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Yeah sorry to burst the bubble for some of you who want the Church to be San Francisco progressive.

Not happening. Being more welcoming? Yeah that could definitely come out of this.

Changing birth control stances? Nada.
Female priests? Nope.
Gay marriage? LOL.

The Catechism isn't getting an overhaul on sexual issues. It has been extremely consistent since reproductive technology/homosexuality/etc. burst onto the scene.

I would bet a substantial amount of money that before I'm gone from this earth that the church will soften its stance on birth control. Remember, even Mormons allow the use of birth control...
 

Whiskeyjack

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Last I checked, society in the above countries hasn't crumbled and regressed into chaos.

(1) Several western states have legalized gay "marriage";
(2) Those states have not immediately degenerated into anarchy;
(3) Therefore, the Church's doctrine on human sexuality is clearly mistaken.

Did I summarize your argument accurately? Also, didn't you coach football at a Jesuit high school?

Trying to normalize sin is a problem. Getting people who are gay to come to church could be a great thing, but not as a way to think they have a right to sin freely. Hate the sin and not the sinner.

That's the concern among many traditionalists I know. If this softened stance on "irregular" living arrangements results in Catholic priests being better able to meet people where they are and lead them out of sin, then it will have done some good.

But I know plenty of priests who will use this "pastoral earthquake" as an opportunity to confirm people in their sinfulness instead. That's basically what every media outlet (including this article by CNN) is attempting to do whenever they cover something about Francis.
 

woolybug25

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I would bet a substantial amount of money that before I'm gone from this earth that the church will soften its stance on birth control. Remember, even Mormons allow the use of birth control...

Remember, the Mormon Church is only 184 years old. Centuries of belief don't change overnight.
 
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"Stunning" is part of the article's title. See the LINK in the OP that I cut and pasted from CNN's article.

I know, I'm just saying the 'stunning' in quotes means they are quoting someone. This fella thought it was stunning.

The Rev. James Martin, an author and Jesuit priest, called the report's language on gays and lesbians "revolutionary."

“This is a stunning change in the way that the Catholic Church speaks about gay people.”

"The synod said that gay people have 'gifts and talents to offer the Christian community.' This is something that even a few years ago would have been unthinkable," Martin added.
 

IrishMoore1

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(1) Several western states have legalized gay "marriage";
(2) Those states have not immediately degenerated into anarchy;
(3) Therefore, the Church's doctrine on human sexuality is clearly mistaken.

Did I summarize your argument accurately? Also, didn't you coach football at a Jesuit high school?

No no.

I do believe that the Church's doctrine on human sexuality is mistaken, but the adoption of gay marriage in other countries does not prove that. This fact only counters the arguments of others who say that gay marriage will destroy society, ruin families, etc.

I recently coached track and field at a Jesuit high school, from which I graduated in 2007. Non-catholics and even Catholics don't always agree with the stances of the Church. Topics such as gay marriage and birth control are especially noticeable, so I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion.
 
C

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Remember, the Mormon Church is only 184 years old. Centuries of belief don't change overnight.

I was recently visited by Mormons at my door this past Saturday. They asked me if I was interested in speaking about their church. I said no thank you and that I was Catholic.

They said, they said... "Are you interested in discussing how to improve your relationship with the Lord?

I LOL'd and excused myself. I mean, that takes some serious cajones.
 

zelezo vlk

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I was recently visited by Mormons at my door this past Saturday. They asked me if I was interested in speaking about their church. I said no thank you and that I was Catholic.

They said, they said... "Are you interested in discussing how to improve your relationship with the Lord?

I LOL'd and excused myself. I mean, that takes some serious cajones.

Did you have a truly generous heart and give them tickets to see The Book of Mormon?
 

Cali_domer

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Trying to normalize sin is a problem. Getting people who are gay to come to church could be a great thing, but not as a way to think they have a right to sin freely. Hate the sin and not the sinner.
I agree, well said... The other issue is other sin we tend turn a blind eye to also needs(Divorce, porn, etc)to be viewed in the same light. Still love them but be consistent with it.

My big issue with this whole gay marriage issue is that it singled out this one issue when the church needs to also view what is happening under its own roof . I hope the church doesn't fall to the moralities of the world, but we need to make sure it's loving and not hate filled like what happened in the past.
 
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irishog77

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I'll be "stunned" when the Church decides that her teachings for 2,000 years is now, all of sudden, wrong, and reverses her course on morality.

It's not happening.

But as Whiskey pointed out, is there room for changes in practice? Sure. I think we all hope that occurs.
 
G

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I don't have skin in this game since I am not Catholic, and quite frankly, don't care what the Pope does or doesn't do. No offense intended, that's just the way it is in my belief.

But if the Pope declares homosexuality acceptable and supports gay marriage, that would be the end of their traditional influence in my opinion. The sanctity of the traditional marriage is the most important purpose of the church in the modern age. Change that, and you change the way that religion affects peoples lives.

This is not a moral stance in any way on my behalf. I personally have no public issues with gay marriage, being that I don't seek to tell people how to live as long as they do not affect my quality of life (my belief) or tell me how to live. This is more of a political and religious observation on my part.

Your beliefs are up to you so long as they don't infringe on others rights to the same (separation of church and state, in other words).
 
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ACamp1900

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The sanctity of the traditional marriage is the most important purpose of the church in the modern age.

I mean, I agree it's important to not sanctify sin, but this is the absolute top of your list??? For real?
 

Domina Nostra

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The Church isn't changing its teachings. There are some pastors who wished it would, and they are going to try to see how far they can manipulate the "rules" implementing the teachings, without actually changing the teaching.

The problem for them is the Bible is a hard thing to explain away while maintaining credibility. Why believe the Church is an authority empowered by Jesus if it contradicts the Bible on an issue that is so clearly set forth?

As far as Catholic intolerance towards homosexuals, the number of gay clergy should dispel that myth. The differnece now is the push to conflate condemning homosexual ACTS with condemning people who have homosexual attractions. Is that concept really so difficult to understand? For example, is condemning an alcoholic's drinking really the same as condemning him as a person?

The rest of the world has already had this discussion and moved on. Hyperbolize much?

Muslims, Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholics, ... that's a couple of billion that haven't moved on. Seems Appeals Courts and SCOTUS aren't in lockstep either.

Add China, India, and Russia... The vast majority of the world. The rich kids and their IMF vassals are the only ones doing the changing.

*Gay marriage is legal in 29 states in the US. Last I checked, society in the above countries hasn't crumbled and regressed into chaos.

I do believe that the Church's doctrine on human sexuality is mistaken, but the adoption of gay marriage in other countries does not prove that. This fact only counters the arguments of others who say that gay marriage will destroy society, ruin families, etc.

So the idea is that pro-traditional marriage folks assert that society was immediately going to crumble as soon as they legalized gay marriage? I doubt very many people at all ever argued that. Wouldn't most assume that the effects of undermining traditional, sexual morality would be gradual, not immediate?

Even if they did, why would that nonsense be your basis for judging whether it was harmful or not? The utilitarian, non-religious perspective the idea is not difficult to understand. The family unit represents the "natural" foundational building block of society, with a complimentary relationship beween a man and a woman dedicated to making sacrifices to raise their own offspring. You undermine such foundational institutions at your own peril. The burden of proof is on the person wishing to fundamentally overturn things to prove its harmless before he makes the change. I don't knock out a wall on the first floor of my house with out making darn sure I know exactly what its holding up. Just inisisting on the rigteousness of your own position with the support of the popular culture and insisting that nothing will happen is not sufficient.
 
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