UND News (General)

[Old Man Mike]

Yes. I don't like these kinds of lists; but Notre Dame scoring this high on any set of value metrics is a terrific testament to our school's quality, regardless of any "we're better than you are" number. Standing applause to my great old UNIVERSITY (which also happens to have a pretty darn good football team.)

 

[RDU Irish]

I saw that. Loved it. One big advantage is ND still cares a lot about legacy. Easiest legacy admissions in the top 20 schools without a debt. Just gotta have a solid track record of giving money, then tutor your kids up, then suddenly I’m back in stadium lot

Only if you pipeline through the local Catholic HS. Test optional is great for this track too. Pay for As, don't take AP tests, don't submit ACT/SAT, built in service projects and have your counselor who sends kids to ND every year serve you up on a platter.

I am curious if these rankings change if you put a cost of living adjustment on salaries - very heavy on NYC, LA, Chicago, DC on job placements.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Only if you pipeline through the local Catholic HS. Test optional is great for this track too. Pay for As, don't take AP tests, don't submit ACT/SAT, built in service projects and have your counselor who sends kids to ND every year serve you up on a platter.

I am curious if these rankings change if you put a cost of living adjustment on salaries - very heavy on NYC, LA, Chicago, DC on job placements.

That first paragraph is actually the exact opposite of my path to get into ND…I went to a large public high school that sent lots of kids to ND’s “peer institutions” like northwestern and Chicago. I got admitted with “just fine” grades and great test scores because they wanted to finally get someone from my high school.

Regarding the testing stuff…I’m surprised ND is still test optional, but the admissions people are a bunch of libs. I think going test optional and not taking a single AP test as an unconnected white kid who wants to go to ND might not be a great choice. But my college admissions process was a very long time ago now so what do I know

 

[RDU Irish]

That first paragraph is actually the exact opposite of my path to get into ND…I went to a large public high school that sent lots of kids to ND’s “peer institutions” like northwestern and Chicago. I got admitted with “just fine” grades and great test scores because they wanted to finally get someone from my high school.

Regarding the testing stuff…I’m surprised ND is still test optional, but the admissions people are a bunch of libs. I think going test optional and not taking a single AP test as an unconnected white kid who wants to go to ND might not be a great choice. But my college admissions process was a very long time ago now so what do I know

I think you are missing the legacy aspect of my commentary. Agree that submitting test optional and skipping AP exams is going to need something big to override that question mark. Feeder Catholic HS counselor's endorsement and legacy status get the job done. Paying for HS means you aren't poor for a nice selection bias in your "need based" financial aid calcs allowing you to give free rides to the DEI and super geek mercenaries you are bidding on. IMO - double legacies and leverage your network, especially if you are propping up stats with test optional.

LOL on the bolded - far from unique to ND.

 

[PolishDomer]

My boys go to ND College Prep in Niles, IL which does send many kids to ND being a Holy Cross school...hoping both boys are able to go despite my wife saying she would like them to go to Harvard lol

Hoping the legacy status holds true along with the HS rep with ND helps my boys along. Doesn't hurt they are both strong soccer players either...

 

[NDVirginia19]

I think you are missing the legacy aspect of my commentary. Agree that submitting test optional and skipping AP exams is going to need something big to override that question mark. Feeder Catholic HS counselor's endorsement and legacy status get the job done. Paying for HS means you aren't poor for a nice selection bias in your "need based" financial aid calcs allowing you to give free rides to the DEI and super geek mercenaries you are bidding on. IMO - double legacies and leverage your network, especially if you are propping up stats with test optional.

LOL on the bolded - far from unique to ND.

This is also an underrated benefit of having an ROTC scholarship in hand prior to applying for ND... They know that Uncle Sam is paying full price

 

[RDU Irish]

My boys go to ND College Prep in Niles, IL which does send many kids to ND being a Holy Cross school...hoping both boys are able to go despite my wife saying she would like them to go to Harvard lol

Hoping the legacy status holds true along with the HS rep with ND helps my boys along. Doesn't hurt they are both strong soccer players either...

IMO with the pipeline schools it is important how you stack up against others running in the same pipeline. Legacy helps but I imagine there are a lot in the area being so close to ND. My view is from 1000 miles away and less so with Chicago area and ND's immediate back yard where they have a crap ton of applicants.

 

[NDVirginia19]

IMO with the pipeline schools it is important how you stack up against others running in the same pipeline. Legacy helps but I imagine there are a lot in the area being so close to ND. My view is from 1000 miles away and less so with Chicago area and ND's immediate back yard where they have a crap ton of applicants.

I came from a public school in VA, but was also a Legacy. I think going to a big public school and standing out makes it easier to be a big fish with great Extra curriculars, leadership positions, etc. than going to a feeder school with a lot of hyper competitive types all vying to be in honors societies/club presidents/sports captains etc.

Also my opinion is that the kids who go to those highly competitive private schools often burn out and have higher stress. Going to a public school with a lot of different walks of life as classmates makes you more well rounded IMO.

 

[IrishLax]

I came from a public school in VA, but was also a Legacy. I think going to a big public school and standing out makes it easier to be a big fish with great Extra curriculars, leadership positions, etc. than going to a feeder school with a lot of hyper competitive types all vying to be in honors societies/club presidents/sports captains etc.

Also my opinion is that the kids who go to those highly competitive private schools often burn out and have higher stress. Going to a public school with a lot of different walks of life as classmates makes you more well rounded IMO.

Are we the same person?

 

[NorthDakota]

My classmate got into Notre Dame (ultimately went to local public). She was either valedictorian or number 2 out of 160ish kids in our public school. No sports. Class VP I think. 34 or 35 on ACT probably helped considerably.

 

[NDVirginia19]

Are we the same person?

Depends if you from a suburb of Richmond lol. Which is a shame because of the dearth of public high school lacrosse programs, but I did actually start the program at my highschool and we finally had a school program my senior year. we were fucking dreadful

 

[IrishLax]

My classmate got into Notre Dame (ultimately went to local public). She was either valedictorian or number 2 out of 160ish kids in our public school. No sports. Class VP I think. 34 or 35 on ACT probably helped considerably.

ND is one of the few schools that has kind of stayed true to their mission in the past couple decades of higher ed craziness. The classes are still heavily Catholic and they are looking for "merit"... many other elite schools are selecting for total nonsense.

ND also weighs legacies for school culture reasons. There are a lot of non-Catholic "striver" types that just don't get it and would ruin ND culture if they ever got to a critical mass. I still remember freshman year having an English professor from UCLA who complained about it being hard to use the library on football Saturdays and the whole class was like:

Anybody who is anti-legacies in admissions is basically asking for ND to become unrecognizable and for the football team to be poorly funded. That's the reality of the situation.

 

[RDU Irish]

My classmate got into Notre Dame (ultimately went to local public). She was either valedictorian or number 2 out of 160ish kids in our public school. No sports. Class VP I think. 34 or 35 on ACT probably helped considerably.

Was that in North Dakota? They do a lot to fill in the state map but that 34-35 ACT and top of class cover two popular bragging points.

Who knew public schools had lacrosse too. So much for "Going to a public school with a lot of different walks of life as classmates makes you more well rounded IMO."

 

[IrishLax]

Depends if you from a suburb of Richmond lol. Which is a shame because of the dearth of public high school lacrosse programs, but I did actually start the program at my highschool and we finally had a school program my senior year. we were fucking dreadful

I am not, I was raised in NoVA.

FWIW I've been pretty impressed with Richmond lacrosse. I saw Cosby play at a tournament last year and they were high quality for a public school. St. Chris is also back on the upswing and Collegiate recently poached one of the assistants from the University of Richmond.

 

[NDVirginia19]

ND is one of the few schools that has kind of stayed true to their mission in the past couple decades of higher ed craziness. The classes are still heavily Catholic and they are looking for "merit"... many other elite schools are selecting for total nonsense.

ND also weights legacies school culture reasons. There are a lot of non-Catholic "striver" types that just don't get it and would ruin ND culture if they ever got to a critical mass. I still remember freshman year having an English professor from UCLA who complained about it being hard to use the library on football Saturdays and the whole class was like:

Anybody who is anti-legacies in admissions is basically asking for ND to become unrecognizable and for the football team to be poorly funded. That's the reality of the situation.

One of my Econ professors (Professor Sims, the GOAT), would start every class with a prayer, and on every Friday start class with a ~5 minute presentation on our upcoming football opponent. Genuinely would not be surprised if he was a poster on this board, the amount of vitrolic hate he had towards Michigan (went in depth about how Fielding Yost was an anti-catholic piece of shit, how their all-time winningest program schtick is full of shit when you look at the games they count, etc.) was truly admirable. The crazy thing is that Professor Sims had his Masters and PhD from Michigan. One of the most memorable professors I had, he's what makes Notre Dame different.

 

[NDVirginia19]

I am not, I was raised in NoVA.

FWIW I've been pretty impressed with Richmond lacrosse. I saw Cosby play at a tournament last year and they were high quality for a public school. St. Chris is also back on the upswing and Collegiate recently poached one of the assistants from the University of Richmond.

I played Cosby a great deal in high school sports. They were at the opposite, more affluent end of Chesterfield county. I would have to go over to those neck of the woods to play lacrosse all the time growing up, we didn't have any rec leagues or travel teams based in Chester

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

You guys make me hope even more that my kids can overcome their dad's limited genetics and earn a spot at ND. Such a special place to learn and prepare for the world.

 

[NorthDakota]

Was that in North Dakota? They do a lot to fill in the state map but that 34-35 ACT and top of class cover two popular bragging points.

Who knew public schools had lacrosse too. So much for "Going to a public school with a lot of different walks of life as classmates makes you more well rounded IMO."

Yep here in ND. Notre Dame is a fairly popular destination for our "best and brightest" though. I don't think the school has a hard time finding a few smart kids from out here to bring in to cover the map of incoming freshmen.

 

[NDVirginia19]

You guys make me hope even more that my kids can overcome their dad's limited genetics and earn a spot at ND. Such a special place to learn and prepare for the world.

This might help them...

 

[stlnd01]

ND is one of the few schools that has kind of stayed true to their mission in the past couple decades of higher ed craziness. The classes are still heavily Catholic and they are looking for "merit"... many other elite schools are selecting for total nonsense.

ND also weighs legacies for school culture reasons. There are a lot of non-Catholic "striver" types that just don't get it and would ruin ND culture if they ever got to a critical mass. I still remember freshman year having an English professor from UCLA who complained about it being hard to use the library on football Saturdays and the whole class was like:

Anybody who is anti-legacies in admissions is basically asking for ND to become unrecognizable and for the football team to be poorly funded. That's the reality of the situation.

Is there any meaningful constituency *within Notre Dame* for ending legacy admissions preferences *at Notre Dame*? Asking, partly, as a parent of a high school sophomore who would be a double legacy.

*I'm well aware of the general argument against legacy preferences and why it has gained traction at many schools, but those schools are not Notre Dame. And I don't think Notre Dame will end legacy admissions unless there's a real push from within to do so. Or like some federal law/major litigation I suppose.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

I think you are missing the legacy aspect of my commentary. Agree that submitting test optional and skipping AP exams is going to need something big to override that question mark. Feeder Catholic HS counselor's endorsement and legacy status get the job done. Paying for HS means you aren't poor for a nice selection bias in your "need based" financial aid calcs allowing you to give free rides to the DEI and super geek mercenaries you are bidding on. IMO - double legacies and leverage your network, especially if you are propping up stats with test optional.

LOL on the bolded - far from unique to ND.

I suppose this is true. I consider the traditional feeders to ND to be st ignatius, fenwick, benet, and st joe’s.

The thing is, super high test scores can still move the needle for a kid at ND. Unlike at places like Harvard and Yale where it doesn’t really make any difference

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Is there any meaningful constituency *within Notre Dame* for ending legacy admissions preferences *at Notre Dame*? Asking, partly, as a parent of a high school sophomore who would be a double legacy.

*I'm well aware of the general argument against legacy preferences and why it has gained traction at many schools, but those schools are not Notre Dame. And I don't think Notre Dame will end legacy admissions unless there's a real push from within to do so. Or like some federal law/major litigation I suppose.

Legacy works out great at ND. They’re all 32+ ACT type kids who can handle the coursework - unless their parents gave a building, in which case come on in!

The real academic rot, in my opinion, comes from admission preferences for non revenue sports. Admitting swimmers with 26 ACT’s is insane but it happens, and I view it as getting in the way of admitting semi literate defensive tackles from the Mississippi Delta.

 

[Punky]

I suppose this is true. I consider the traditional feeders to ND to be st ignatius, fenwick, benet, and st joe’s.

The thing is, super high test scores can still move the needle for a kid at ND. Unlike at places like Harvard and Yale where it doesn’t really make any difference

Forty five years ago, not so many St Joes and Benet grads. Lots of Iggy and Fenwick guys though even then. Gordon Tech, Brother Rice, Loyola, St Laurence, Mt Carmel, Marmion had head counts too. Of course back then those were all male-only schools.

 

[RDU Irish]

Yep here in ND. Notre Dame is a fairly popular destination for our "best and brightest" though. I don't think the school has a hard time finding a few smart kids from out here to bring in to cover the map of incoming freshmen.

North Dakota graduates around 8000 high school seniors per year - your pool is a bit smaller and less interested than the 150,000 high school seniors coming out of the Chicagoland area, or 80,000 out of New Jersey. Small states have a distinct advantage that increases the further you get away from campus.

A legacy from Wyoming, Vermont or Alaska might not even need to submit an application.

 

[RDU Irish]

Legacy works out great at ND. They’re all 32+ ACT type kids who can handle the coursework - unless their parents gave a building, in which case come on in!

The real academic rot, in my opinion, comes from admission preferences for non revenue sports. Admitting swimmers with 26 ACT’s is insane but it happens, and I view it as getting in the way of admitting semi literate defensive tackles from the Mississippi Delta.

25% of students have under 33 ACT - and that is with test optional where everyone knows not to submit if your scores are below that range. "Motivated" kids take half a dozen test prep courses and super score their six attempts to hit the bogey. Is that really more "talented" than some kid with a 28 who did little or no prep?

Apply

31% "domestic students from historically underrepresented groups" compared to 20-25% legacies tells you where the admission loyalties lie. Still 2-3x better acceptance rate for legacies versus the overall 11% acceptance rate.

 

[FireJeffQuinn]

Very timely discussion on political polarization between two governors, moderated by Fr. Bob. Livestream link is in the article.

Pragmatism Over Polarization: A Conversation with U.S. Governors

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

We have fallen in the US News rankings again. The stakes for a win on Saturday have never been higher

 

[NDPhilly]

The recent change is methodology heavily benefits public schools, not an apples to apples admissions and outcomes ranking. Like no one thinks Wisconsin is the #36 school in the country.

 

[Old Man Mike]

well .... all through my academic career, the University of Wisconsin ranked at least as high as #36, especially as a powerhouse research university. That grad school was COVETED by undergrads looking to become PhDs.

 

[mhunter123]

The recent change is methodology heavily benefits public schools, not an apples to apples admissions and outcomes ranking. Like no one thinks Wisconsin is the #36 school in the country.

Do you know what the methodology is and what is holding ND back? We can't seem to climb the ladder in their rankings.