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Irish Houstonian

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...If it gets bad enough it can bring down the global financial derivatives bubble going on all around the globe. To give any idea of how crazy the derivatives market is: The value of every share in the stock market is in the neighborhood of $15 trillion. The annual GDP of the US is about $15-16 trillion. The annual GDP of the world is in the neighborhood of $60 trillion. The global derivatives market is estimated to be $1.2 quadrillion or $1200 trillion. If that goes down it is going be 1929 esque if not worse.

That's the notional value of all derivatives, worldwide. (The value of each underlying asset that all derivatives are betting on, added together, regardless of whether it's double-counting or whether the credit risk cancels out, etc.).

The gross market value of all derivatives -- the amount of $ that would be lost if they all went down the toilet -- is in the tens of trillions. Which is a lot, to be sure, but not nearly as catastrophic as the "quadrillion" language some of the chicken-littles out there are peddling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)

To give an idea of the size of the derivative market, The Economist magazine has reported that as of June 2011, the over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives market amounted to approximately $700 trillion, and the size of the market traded on exchanges totaled an additional $83 trillion. However, these are "notional" values, and some economists say that this value greatly exaggerates the market value and the true credit risk faced by the parties involved. For example, in 2010, while the aggregate of OTC derivatives exceeded $600 trillion, the value of the market was estimated much lower, at $21 trillion. The credit risk equivalent of the derivative contracts was estimated at $3.3 trillion.
 

IrishLax

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That's the notional value of all derivatives, worldwide. (The value of each underlying asset that all derivatives are betting on, added together, regardless of whether it's double-counting or whether the credit risk cancels out, etc.).

The gross market value of all derivatives -- the amount of $ that would be lost if they all went down the toilet -- is in the tens of trillions. Which is a lot, to be sure, but not nearly as catastrophic as the "quadrillion" language some of the chicken-littles out there are peddling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derivative_(finance)

Was about to say this. I don't know shit about Ukraine, but the notion presented above was alarmist at best.

Also, Russia threatening the US with sanctions was hilarious. I mean that's straight up some North Korea level laughable ridiculous shit.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Also, Russia threatening the US with sanctions was hilarious. I mean that's straight up some North Korea level laughable ridiculous shit.

That wouldn't hurt us directly, but it would make life very uncomfortable for some of our closest allies in the EU. Which is why none of them have been very interested in sabre rattling thus far.
 

Irish Houstonian

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Was about to say this. I don't know shit about Ukraine, but the notion presented above was alarmist at best.

Also, Russia threatening the US with sanctions was hilarious. I mean that's straight up some North Korea level laughable ridiculous shit.

It is pretty lame from a geopolitical-leverage standpoint, although it could really annoy some of our oil and gas peeps (Conoco, Exxon, etc.). Also maybe some of Eastern Europe could lose a lot of nat. gas? Like Poland, etc....? (Not as sure how reliant they are on Rus. nat gas -- maybe that's just the Baltics/CIS.)
 
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Buster Bluth

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Well said, Chicago. I hope China ends up crashing, it would be beautiful. Maybe it would force the US and the rest of the west to quit buying so much of their junk. I'd like to see us start manufacturing more and creating jobs here, leaving China in the dust.

It wouldn't be beautiful. We want a westernizing China, not a desperate one. As China grows, the world economy grow. More investment, more jobs, and more consumers. That is a good thing.

Besides, when goods don't cross borders, armies do. Globalization does have the benefit or reducing the need for war. In fairness, plenty of people wrote 100 years ago that you'd have to be insane to wreck economic prosperity and global markets by going to war, and they were wrong. But I generally agree with them in today's world.

Besides, the US is experiencing both a natural gas and manufacturing boom right now. Natural gas is bringing the jobs, but manufacturing isn't because the technology is now cheaper than Chinese labor in many places. You'll see American manufacturing left and right, but you won't see people in the factory.
 

chicago51

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Well said, Chicago. I hope China ends up crashing, it would be beautiful. Maybe it would force the US and the rest of the west to quit buying so much of their junk. I'd like to see us start manufacturing more and creating jobs here, leaving China in the dust.

My post wasn't meant to be one of hope but of concern. If China goes down we are going down to. For better or worse we are all on one big ship.

Back to Ukraine the narrative seems to be it has to either align with EU or Russia in an all or none fashion. I was reading though it does not have to be an either/or scenario but it could actually be where they sort of end up with relationships with both sides.

If I'm Ukraine I would want a relationship with the west but I don't want to be in the EU. Germany the strongest economy in the EU has pretty much held the Eurozone together but they have forced painful policies on countries like Greece and Spain. As I also posted it is not out of the realm of possibility the Euro collapses.
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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I pretty much agree with your conclusions regarding the Ukrainian conflict, but I wouldn't compare this to what happened in Georgia.

It's easy for the Western world to include the Georgia conflict as evidence for the popular narative that Putin is a mad man, but in reality Russia's actions were a response to Georgian attacks on Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers. People seem to forget what happened when Islamic terrorists attacked US civilians... Oh yeah, we invaded and bombed the shit out of two countries.

True on the Georgia invasion, although my point still stands with the cyber attacks on Estonia, the natural gas shutoffs to former soviet bloc countries, and the occupation of Crimea after a popular uprising against their corrupt puppet leader.


One other thing I would note is that the US could easily compete with Russia in the natural gas space in terms of price (even considering transportation, storage costs, etc.). The US is the largest producer of nat gas and the only thing holding them back is LNG export restrictions.

You can't just crank out LNG from the US like turning on a spigot. LNG export terminals take years and billions of dollars. It would also have limited impact on global LNG prices, raise US nat gas prices, and really only help international oil/gas companies in any meaningful sense. And in regards to this discussion, wouldn't make Europe meaningfully less dependent on Russian gas.

Iraq circa1991?

This is the closest parallel and I agree with your point. Then again you can say that Saddam's was a threat to global oil supplies (in Kuwait AND Saudi Arabia), while if anything a Russian puppet government in Ukraine might be beneficial to European energy supplies.


Nobody has shown they could stand much of a chance against the US leviathan force for decades. That would pretty be true again in a war with Russia, nuclear weapons aside. NATO would wipe the floor with them, in my opinion.

The US is far and away stronger as a global force, but you'd have to consider our deployable forces in Eastern Europe. I don't think it will happen but if Putin has the intention of seizing Kiev, his tanks will be on the move at the hint of the US moving troops into the area. At that point it's already game over. If I'm Obama I create a no fly zone over Kiev, put rapid reaction troops into Kiev publicly, and move an armored division out of Germany on its way. It's starting to look like even a move like that might not be necessary.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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There is another dimension to the situation with the Ukraine that has been strangely overlooked by many :

Ukraine's escalating tensions with Russia could cost the former Soviet republic billions in aid and investment from China, which has in recent years developed close economic ties with Kiev.

Late last year, Beijing reportedly struck a multibillion-dollar deal to lease vast amounts of eastern Ukrainian farmland to feed its exploding population, and also pledged $8 billion in aid to the cash-strapped nation. Those deals came after the administration of recently ousted President Viktor Yanukovych aggressively courted Chinese investment. But with Yanukovych gone and Kiev locked in confrontation with Moscow, China could be forced to choose sides. China's alliance with Russia and its unfamiliarity with the new Ukrainian government has put in jeopardy the investment Ukraine desperately needs, according to experts.

“If I was China, I’d be concerned about any investment in an economy that’s clearly in bad shape, which the Ukrainian economy clearly is,” said Doug Bandow, senior fellow at the Washington-based Cato Institute. “Obviously, the potential for conflict, including their political instability, is going to have a negative impact on all economic relationships.”


"Ukraine is Russia’s breadbasket, it always has been. It would be out of character for Putin not to try and disrupt that deal."

- James 'Ace' Lyons, retired Navy Admiral

China could seek to keep the deals in place, while claiming neutrality in the conflict between Russia and Ukraine, Bandow told FoxNews.com. But Russia will likely not be pleased.

“I’d say I’m building this for the future if the Russians ask,” he said. “Putin also doesn’t need another problem with the Chinese … he has a lot on his plate. He’s already challenging the West, there’s no reason to challenge the Chinese.”

“The Chinese will likely say our economic deal is not part of this bigger problem. You guys have a political problem, we just want an economic deal; we made an investment.”

Some estimates of Chinese aid packages to Ukraine approach $20 billion just in the past two years, and Reuters reported in September that the farmland deal included 3 million hectares of Ukrainian land — 7.4 million acres — or an area roughly the size of Belgium. But Ukrainian agricultural firm KSG Agro later denied those reports, saying that the agreement was a “letter of intent” concerning a transfer of irrigation technology for an area of just 3,000 hectares. The land is in the eastern portion of the country, where more ethnic Russians live.

“This is just the first stage of a project that may in the future gradually expand to cover more areas covered by the drip irrigation systems as well as the first stage of cooperation in the area of application of modern technologies in crop production, vegetable growing and pig farming,” the company said in a statement. “KSG Agro does not intend or have any right to sell land to foreigners, including the Chinese.”

The Chinese are already pressuring Kiev to clarify where it stands on those deals and Putin will likely leave that decision between the Ukrainians and the Chinese, according to Dean Cheng, senior research fellow for Chinese political and security affairs at The Heritage Foundation. Ultimately, if pressured to make a decision, China will likely side with Russia, but in a “very limited way,” he said.

“Undoubtedly, there’s some question as to whether this new government will honor these previous contracts for however many hectares is ultimately agreed upon,” Cheng told FoxNews.com. “That being said, it’s useful to note that in 2008, when Russia rolled into Georgia, the Chinese were thunderously silent about whether they supported the Russian intervention.”

As Russia's hold continues on Crimea, a predominantly Russian-speaking region in the country’s southeast, China's UN ambassador, Liu Jieyi, stopped short of endorsing the show of force, calling for “principles of non-interference” while respecting Ukraine’s “independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity.”

Cheng said that response by the Chinese, who prefer autocracies to democratic movements, is in stark contrast to its take when it urged the United States not to take unilateral action against Syria following chemical weapons attacks that killed at least 1,429 civilians.

“What we’ve seen are Chinese statements that are profoundly opaque, but what it comes down to is they are absolutely not condemning Moscow,” Cheng said. “They are, depending on how you spin it, studiously neutral but also not condemning it.”

Meanwhile, James “Ace” Lyons, a retired admiral in the U.S. Navy, said he fully expects Putin to put pressure on China to ultimately negate any investment in the new Ukrainian government.

“If I were Putin, that would be the tact I’d be taking against China,” Lyons told FoxNews.com. “It’s a question as to whether China will accede to it … You have to count on that. Ukraine is Russia’s breadbasket, it always has been. It would be out of character for Putin not to try and disrupt that deal.”

And yet another dimension totally ignored in the States by both our Obama Bashers and our War Hawks (from a Time Magazine Article) :

The economic impact on Russia is already staggering. When markets opened on Monday morning, investors got their first chance to react to the Russian intervention in Ukraine over the weekend, and as a result, the key Russian stock indexes tanked by more than 10%. That amounts to almost $60 billion in stock value wiped out in the course of a day, more than Russia spent preparing for last month’s Winter Olympic Games in Sochi. The state-controlled natural-gas monopoly Gazprom, which accounts for roughly a quarter of Russian tax revenue, lost $15 billion in market value in one day — incidentally the same amount of money Russia promised to the teetering regime in Ukraine in December and then revoked in January as the revolution took hold.

The value of the Russian currency meanwhile dropped against the dollar to its lowest point on record, and the Russian central bank spent $10 billion on the foreign-exchange markets trying to prop it up. “This has to fundamentally change the way investors and ratings agencies view Russia,” said Timothy Ash, head of emerging-market research at Standard Bank. At a time when Russia’s economic growth was already stagnating, “this latest military adventure will increase capital flight, weaken Russian asset prices, slow investment and economic activity and growth. Western financial sanctions on Russia will hurt further,” Ash told the Wall Street Journal.

Even Russia’s closest allies want no part of this. The oil-rich state of Kazakhstan, the most important member of every regional alliance Russia has going in the former Soviet space, put out a damning statement on Monday, marking the first time its leaders have ever turned against Russia on such a major strategic issue: “Kazakhstan expresses deep concern over the developments in Ukraine,” the Foreign Ministry said. “Kazakhstan calls on all sides to stop the use of force in the resolution of this situation.”

What likely worries Russia’s neighbors most is the statement the Kremlin made on March 2, after Putin spoke on the phone with U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. “Vladimir Putin noted that in case of any escalation of violence against the Russian-speaking population of the eastern regions of Ukraine and Crimea, Russia would not be able to stay away and would resort to whatever measures are necessary in compliance with international law.” This sets a horrifying precedent for all of Russia’s neighbors.


Read more: How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com How Putin's Ukraine Invasion Is a Disaster for Russia | TIME.com
 
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ulukinatme

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Buster Bluth

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This is the closest parallel and I agree with your point. Then again you can say that Saddam's was a threat to global oil supplies (in Kuwait AND Saudi Arabia), while if anything a Russian puppet government in Ukraine might be beneficial to European energy supplies.


The US is far and away stronger as a global force, but you'd have to consider our deployable forces in Eastern Europe. I don't think it will happen but if Putin has the intention of seizing Kiev, his tanks will be on the move at the hint of the US moving troops into the area. At that point it's already game over. If I'm Obama I create a no fly zone over Kiev, put rapid reaction troops into Kiev publicly, and move an armored division out of Germany on its way. It's starting to look like even a move like that might not be necessary.

Well I think it'd play out more like Iraq 1991/2003 than not, assuming nukes are off the table. NATO would control the skies within a matter of days (or hours) and Russian tanks would be exploding before they even see NATO jets on their map. Getting boots on the ground would be a challenge, but as the 1990s and 2000s showed, US air superiority can fuck up armies in a hurry. It'll never get to that though, Putin isn't stupid.
 

T Town Tommy

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Well I think it'd play out more like Iraq 1991/2003 than not, assuming nukes are off the table. NATO would control the skies within a matter of days (or hours) and Russian tanks would be exploding before they even see NATO jets on their map. Getting boots on the ground would be a challenge, but as the 1990s and 2000s showed, US air superiority can fuck up armies in a hurry. It'll never get to that though, Putin isn't stupid.

I agree with you at this point. But who knows what Putin will do any more. With that said, the US must show him that they aren't playing with his land grabs. If Obama remains soft, then Putin will be empowered to try it again in the eastern Ukraine. Time for our President to flex a little diplomatic muscle.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Well I think it'd play out more like Iraq 1991/2003 than not, assuming nukes are off the table. NATO would control the skies within a matter of days (or hours) and Russian tanks would be exploding before they even see NATO jets on their map. Getting boots on the ground would be a challenge, but as the 1990s and 2000s showed, US air superiority can fuck up armies in a hurry. It'll never get to that though, Putin isn't stupid.

I think your analysis is brilliant. To quote the then chief of staff, (after the route, and the highway of death); "There is a fire sale on Russian armament, buyers market! You can buy it for next to nothing!" And so it goes.

Buster, did you know that US Air power has been so successful, (All US military branches fixed wing) that the lowest rank with actual dog fight in live combat experience is a US Navy Rear Admiral? (Which is like what O-8?)

Don't forget artillery and tanks. The United States, and Nato's ability to move 100+ MM pieces in a matter of hours to render hell to opponents is mythically legendary. Tactics to extend the front depth is what the US does well, and what the Russians cannot handle.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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I agree with you at this point. But who knows what Putin will do any more. With that said, the US must show him that they aren't playing with his land grabs. If Obama remains soft, then Putin will be empowered to try it again in the eastern Ukraine. Time for our President to flex a little diplomatic muscle.

The difference between Putin and Hitler? The economic system in Russia is nothing like that of Nazi Germany. Also Putin has a billion and a half angry Chinese that he is entirely unequipped to deal with. Hell he can't even deal with Kazakhstan turning off the spigot!
 
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Buster Bluth

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If Obama remains soft, then Putin will be empowered to try it again in the eastern Ukraine. Time for our President to flex a little diplomatic muscle.

In what way is Obama being soft? What the hell is he supposed to do? Economic repercussions and alienating former-USSR countries is taking its toll already on Russia.

Not that you've said it, but I'm already tired of the "Reagan would have acted!" malarkey.
 
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T Town Tommy

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In what way is Obama being soft? What the hell is he supposed to do? Economic repercussions and alienating former-USSR countries is taking its toll already.

Not that you've said it, but I'm already tired of the "Reagan would have acted!" malarkey.

My point is that he has played soft up to this point due to him not realizing Russia is the geopolitical threat it is. His reset button mindset bit him in the as*. For one to speak with a soft voice... they still have to pack a big stick. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Since Obama didn't do that early on in his presidency, he now must step up to the plate and get tougher. Political rhetoric and great speeches mean nothing to Putin.
 
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Buster Bluth

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The difference between Putin and Hitler? The economic system in Russia is nothing like that of Nazi Germany.

Well Hitler's only goal was to systematically kill basically every person east of Germany and replace them with Germans. A Germany from the Rhine to the Volga.

Putin is no Hitler.
 

chicago51

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Obama largely got elected becauce American didn't want George W Bush foreign policy. In fact it that alone won him the primary, he sure didn't because economic issues.

I'm not sure how diplomatic = soft.

I love these generic talk points about being "soft" but there is no plan offerred by those who give them.
 

IrishinTN

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Well Hitler's only goal was to systematically kill basically every person east of Germany and replace them with Germans. A Germany from the Rhine to the Volga.

Putin is no Hitler.

The world is definitely different now than it was when Hitler rose to power. Can you imagine Hitler with nukes? Yikes.

I bet Putin would love to re-establish the borders of the old Soviet Union, but this event will prove two things: 1) whether or not he does want that and 2) how crazy he is (or isn't).
 
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Cackalacky

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The world is definitely different now than it was when Hitler rose to power. Can you imagine Hitler with nukes? Yikes.

I bet Putin would love to re-establish the borders of the old Soviet Union, but this event will prove two things: 1) whether or not he does want that and 2) how crazy he is (or isn't).

I can and it scares the shit out of me. The Germans developed the first rockets and were already experimenting with radiological devices. Another few years and they could have had a nuclear payload. They did not in the end as they hit stumbling blocks and never pursued it at the end of the War (higher priorities) As a matter of fact American should consider that ex-patriot Germans and Nazi's assisted the US with our own programs and bombs by 1945. The Nazis could have beat us to it if they were not stretched so thin by 1942.
 

T Town Tommy

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Obama largely got elected becauce American didn't want George W Bush foreign policy. In fact it that alone won him the primary, he sure didn't because economic issues.

I'm not sure how diplomatic = soft.

I love these generic talk points about being "soft" but there is no plan offerred by those who give them.

The table was set for Obama when he took office when it came to Eastern European affairs. How soon we forget it was Obama who laughed at Romney when Romney stated Russia was still the largest geopolitical threat to the world. Obama comes in to office, hits his magical "reset" button, politely throws Poland and the C. Republic under the bus by shutting down the plans for missile defense, etc.

Obama's own actions when it came to Russia speaks for itself. He went in "soft", thought that Russia would fall in line with him, and when it didn't happen he was left with the current climate we now face.

Solutions? How about recognizing the geopolitical threat when you came in to office instead of letting Russia dictate what happens in eastern Europe. Obama was ill prepared to deal with an experienced dictator in Putin and that has led to where we are today.

The real test is can Obama finally lead and get Western Europe to join him. I doubt it at this point. That leaves him to do what he has left and that is to simply try to go it alone with sanctions. Kick Russia out of the G8? Putin could care less.

Bottom line is pretty simple. Obama is behind the eight ball now due to his "softness" in dealing with Russia. Now, he must act with a stronger hand in order to salvage what he can. If he had of done what he should have in 2009 we would not be talking about this. Sorry... but time for political rhetoric and great speeches is over. Either LEAD or be prepared to discuss the next issue on the horizon which would be Russia in eastern Ukraine.
 

Whiskeyjack

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My point is that he has played soft up to this point due to him not realizing Russia is the geopolitical threat it is. His reset button mindset bit him in the as*. For one to speak with a soft voice... they still have to pack a big stick. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight. Since Obama didn't do that early on in his presidency, he now must step up to the plate and get tougher. Political rhetoric and great speeches mean nothing to Putin.

My issue with the Obama administration's handling of Ukraine is that it played a significant role in fomenting revolution, but apparently had no plan for what to do once that revolution succeeded. Nor did they foresee Russia's entirely predictable reaction to the situation.

My hope is that the administration will offer Putin an out (sort of like he did for us with Syria) that doesn't involve marching on Kiev. But I'm not holding my breath for competency in foreign policy.
 

Irish Houstonian

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The table was set for Obama when he took office when it came to Eastern European affairs. How soon we forget it was Obama who laughed at Romney when Romney stated Russia was still the largest geopolitical threat to the world...

Ah, I forgot about that one. Good point. It wasn't just Obama -- it was basically all of the media who didn't believe Romney when he said that.
 

kmoose

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I love these generic talk points about being "soft" but there is no plan offerred by those who give them.

The only people I have seen talking about Obama being soft, are average everyday people and political commentators. Guess what? It's not their job to come up with plans to defuse the situation in Ukraine; it IS Obama's job!!
 

Whiskeyjack

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Ah, I forgot about that one. Good point. It wasn't just Obama -- it was basically all of the media who didn't believe Romney when he said that.

It's still a pretty laughable statement. One could make a case that it's technically true, but Romney wasn't speaking in terms of objective comparisons of geopolitical power. He was arguing that Russia is a serious threat to America and our vital interests. And that's straight up potato.
 

IrishLax

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Ah, I forgot about that one. Good point. It wasn't just Obama -- it was basically all of the media who didn't believe Romney when he said that.

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Basically everyone in the MSNBC echo chamber said something similar. I mean... is what it is. I bet if Obama had said it, Fox News would've taken the opposite viewpoint just because. That's the nature of cable news and why it's garbage.
 

Irish Houstonian

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It's still a pretty laughable statement. One could make a case that it's technically true, but Romney wasn't speaking in terms of objective comparisons of geopolitical power. He was arguing that Russia is a serious threat to America and our vital interests. And that's straight up potato.

What? He said that Russia was our "number 1 geopolitical foe". If you want to make the case that they're, say, #2 or something, then have at it, but the statement itself is far from "laughable". Particularly in light of Syria.
 
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