Trump Presidency

IrishinSyria

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I would rather someone burn the flag and wrap themselves in the constitution than burn the constitution and wrap themselves in a flag. Read that on Twitter yesterday.


I like this.

Only way I would ever burn a flag is if congress passed a law banning it.

And Hillary was criticized on the left when she tried to pass that law. Was a dumb idea then and it's a dumb idea now.
 

kmoose

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I like this.

Only way I would ever burn a flag is if congress passed a law banning it.

And Hillary was criticized on the left when she tried to pass that law. Was a dumb idea then and it's a dumb idea now.

I don't think so. There are penalties for killing a bald eagle, over and above what the normal Endangered Species protections call for. Why? Because it is a national symbol. Just like the flag is. Banning burning the flag does not stop people from expressing their dissatisfaction with some aspect of life in the US. It simply protects a national symbol.
 

IrishinSyria

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I don't think so. There are penalties for killing a bald eagle, over and above what the normal Endangered Species protections call for. Why? Because it is a national symbol. Just like the flag is. Banning burning the flag does not stop people from expressing their dissatisfaction with some aspect of life in the US. It simply protects a national symbol.

Yeah, I'll grant that it's not as cut and dry as I made it out to be, at least theoretically (pretty well-settled doctrine at this point). That being said, I think the doctrine's on solid ground. The very reason people want to ban flag burning- the fact that it's a national symbol- adds to the expressive nature of the act in a unique way. One might be sending the same substantive message by burning the flag vs chanting "Nobama" or whatever, but burning the flag has a different emotional impact.

The less popular speech is, the more important it is to protect it.
 

phgreek

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I don't think so. There are penalties for killing a bald eagle, over and above what the normal Endangered Species protections call for. Why? Because it is a national symbol. Just like the flag is. Banning burning the flag does not stop people from expressing their dissatisfaction with some aspect of life in the US. It simply protects a national symbol.

Agree with precedent you identified....

I would argue that there is no message in burning the flag...that providing it protections does nothing to limit expression...burn a copy of the constitution...burn a copy of the declaration...those actions actually say something...protest something whose content is contained .... burning the flag singularly intends to deface for effect...like vandalism....is painting shit on the Lincoln monument protected ????
 

Legacy

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From IndyMac to OneWest: Steven Mnuchin's Big Score (Bloomberg, March 2012)

Good bio from 2012 on Trump's new Treasury Secretary who spent seventeen years at Goldman Sachs, working his way up to partner, then starting his own hedge fund, acquiring a bank through which he has financed quite a number of movies and become a billonaire.

He'll be in charge of financial reform of Wall Street, limiting the excesses of big banks, closing loopholes of hedge funds, and protecting Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.

Although he may seem an unlikely retail bank chairman, Mnuchin’s career made him an expert on perhaps the most important part of a banker’s job: assessing risk. His father, Robert Mnuchin, was a partner at Goldman Sachs in the 1960s. The second-youngest of five siblings, Steven attended the prestigious Riverdale Country School and then Yale University, where his roommate was Edward Lampert, who would go on to become a hedge fund manager and owner of Sears. Mnuchin started his career in the early ’80s as a trainee at Salomon Brothers before moving to Goldman Sachs in 1985. He was front and center for the advent of instruments like collateralized debt obligations (CDOs) and credit default swaps (CDSs), which he calls “an extremely positive development in terms of being able to finance different parts of the economy and different businesses efficiently.” The pitfalls of securitization came later, he says. He spent 17 years at Goldman, working his way up to partner and becoming head of the mortgage department before joining Hank Paulson in the executive suite, becoming the firm’s chief information officer in 1999.

In 2002 he left Goldman to join Lampert’s ESL Investments hedge fund as vice chairman, before starting SFM Capital Management in 2003 with George Soros, who invested $1 billion in the fund. The next year, with two other ex-Goldman partners, he formed hedge fund Dune Capital. Among other things, Dune Capital invested $500 million in a slate of Twentieth Century Fox films, including Avatar.

One of the deals Dune looked at in early 2008 was a distressed portfolio of CDOs being unloaded by Merrill Lynch. Mnuchin worked for a few months on the deal, eventually being outbid by private equity firm Lone Star for $6.7 billion. Still, Mnuchin had seen enough to know that the heavily discounted $31 billion portfolio had been a good value. With the failure of IndyMac, which owned a similar portfolio of residential mortgage-backed CDOs, he recognized an opportunity. “This was something that Steven was steeped in for decades,” says David Fawer, a former mortgage trader who has worked with Mnuchin at Goldman, Dune, and OneWest. “The entire asset base are things we’ve spent a lot of time doing.”

With Treasury candidate Mnuchin come possible conflicts (Chicago Tribune)
 
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MJ12666

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There was the stimulus package of $840 billion dollars.
(Source)

You may also be interested in this, too:

Revitalizing American Manufacturing: The Obama Administration’s Progress in Establishing a Foundation for Manufacturing Leadership (National Economic Council, Oct 2016)

Now I am going to preface this by stating that I have not heard or read any details regarding Trump's agreement with Carrier so I have no idea if keeping the jobs in the US will cost the taxpayers anything. Regarding what occurred with the GM and Chrysler, taxpayer money was used to effectively save union jobs and pensions; and according to the USA Today article, cost US taxpayers approximately $9.3B. This does not include the billions lost by bondholders (many of whom were retirees) who were "bullied" into accepting terms effectively dictated by the Administration.

Two good articles.

Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B

The Obama administration bullies GM's bondholders
 

GoIrish41

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Now I am going to preface this by stating that I have not heard or read any details regarding Trump's agreement with Carrier so I have no idea if keeping the jobs in the US will cost the taxpayers anything. Regarding what occurred with the GM and Chrysler, taxpayer money was used to effectively save union jobs and pensions; and according to the USA Today article, cost US taxpayers approximately $9.3B. This does not include the billions lost by bondholders (many of whom were retirees) who were "bullied" into accepting terms effectively dictated by the Administration.

Two good articles.

Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B

The Obama administration bullies GM's bondholders

It could be argued that he had no choice. There were some pretty dire predictions being tossed about at the time. If that is accurate I'd say that all things considered, $9.3B is a pretty sound investment in preventing the complete collapse of the world economy.
 

IrishinSyria

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Agree with precedent you identified....

I would argue that there is no message in burning the flag...that providing it protections does nothing to limit expression...burn a copy of the constitution...burn a copy of the declaration...those actions actually say something...protest something whose content is contained .... burning the flag singularly intends to deface for effect...like vandalism....is painting shit on the Lincoln monument protected ????

I mean obviously I'm not saying you can burn any flag- and I think one of the justifications for the o.d rule was that every flag is technically property of the government? But that's a pretty transparent legal fiction.

I think the fact that flag burning is so common and something people get so angry about is proof of its expressiveness. Political speech doesn't have to be good or meaningful to merit protection.

Anyway, it helps you identify assholes. See someone burning the flag over trade policies or something and you can immediately decide to not waste any brain matter listening to him. Win win.
 

IrishinSyria

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Now I am going to preface this by stating that I have not heard or read any details regarding Trump's agreement with Carrier so I have no idea if keeping the jobs in the US will cost the taxpayers anything. Regarding what occurred with the GM and Chrysler, taxpayer money was used to effectively save union jobs and pensions; and according to the USA Today article, cost US taxpayers approximately $9.3B. This does not include the billions lost by bondholders (many of whom were retirees) who were "bullied" into accepting terms effectively dictated by the Administration.

Two good articles.

Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B

The Obama administration bullies GM's bondholders

The big carrot for carrier to only layoff 1000 people was tax breaks at the state level according to their announcement. Not sure what the tax dollar per worker figure is on that but the bailout of the auto industry saved 1,000x more jobs so the figure to keep an eye on is 9.3 million dollars.

Obviously this is a huge PR win for trump and a big win for the 50% of workers who won't be laid off. Not sure you can read much else into it one way or the other.
 

phgreek

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I mean obviously I'm not saying you can burn any flag- and I think one of the justifications for the o.d rule was that every flag is technically property of the government? But that's a pretty transparent legal fiction.

I think the fact that flag burning is so common and something people get so angry about is proof of its expressiveness. Political speech doesn't have to be good or meaningful to merit protection.

Anyway, it helps you identify assholes. See someone burning the flag over trade policies or something and you can immediately decide to not waste any brain matter listening to him. Win win.

bolded probably true

last paragraph absolutely true
 

kmoose

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It could be argued that he had no choice. There were some pretty dire predictions being tossed about at the time. If that is accurate I'd say that all things considered, $9.3B is a pretty sound investment in preventing the complete collapse of the world economy.

You mean predictions like these?

She's going to win Florida. Broward county is still at only 15% in and she has like 66 percent of the vote there so far.

Pa will note vote Trump! The rural counties and small to ne may lean that way but they will not overcome the impressive coalition of voters in Philadelphia and its suburbs (a quarter of the state's population) turned out by the Democratic political machine there. It may not be the black vote that makes the difference. Women in that area will not vote for Trump, period. I am as confident about Pa as I am about Maryland and NY. As a monolithic entity, Pa goes for sanity and stability -- traits that are foreign to the Donald.

I doubt that Pa., Mich, and NM are I play for Trump. Same with Colo.

There is no way in hell that Trump is going to come close to winning this election -- no matter what "the locals" do. Nate Silver's latest forecast gives Trump less than 13% change of winning the election outright. There is no way Trump is winning this election. All this talk about a rigged election is just Trump acting like a petulant middle schooler.
 

drayer54

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From IndyMac to OneWest: Steven Mnuchin's Big Score (Bloomberg, March 2012)

Good bio from 2012 on Trump's new Treasury Secretary who spent seventeen years at Goldman Sachs, working his way up to partner, then starting his own hedge fund, acquiring a bank through which he has financed quite a number of movies and become a billonaire.

He'll be in charge of financial reform of Wall Street, limiting the excesses of big banks, closing loopholes of hedge funds, and protecting Dodd–Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act.

URL="http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-steven-mnuchin-treasury-conflicts-20161118-story.html"]With Treasury candidate Mnuchin come possible conflicts[/URL] (Chicago Tribune)
Mnuchin and Ross gave a good interview on CNBC this AM. It pushed the markets up and it will be interesting to see what these growth oriented guys can do.

http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000572204
 

phgreek

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Yeah, let's focus on flag burning.

...we'll ask your permission next time something comes up, so as not to waste "paper"...????

Its a discussion board...that little fucking wheel on your mouse...roll it!
 

IrishinSyria

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His experience with Mad Max will make him a natural in the Trum administration!

presidents-before-and-after-george-bush-barack-obama-donald-trump-mad-max.jpg
 

Redbar

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...we'll ask your permission next time something comes up, so as not to waste "paper"...????

Its a discussion board...that little fucking wheel on your mouse...roll it!

It is a an issue raised periodically, usually as a diversion, to tug on those patriotic heart strings and provide a little cover fire so we don't see the issue on our flank. But you are absolutely right, I will STFU, indulge yourself by all means. Brilliant!
 

phgreek

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It is a an issue raised periodically, usually as a diversion, to tug on those patriotic heart strings and provide a little cover fire so we don't see the issue on our flank. But you are absolutely right, I will STFU, indulge yourself by all means. Brilliant!

You can do whatever you want...

When folks engage in a discussion, even if it appears relatively unimportant, I'm not sure why folks find the need to remind them how unimportant it is...when they can scroll on by. Comes off Smug to me.

Again it is a discussion board...no one said you couldn't discuss whatever you want...raise the level of conversation as you see it...have at it.
 

Irish#1

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Now I am going to preface this by stating that I have not heard or read any details regarding Trump's agreement with Carrier so I have no idea if keeping the jobs in the US will cost the taxpayers anything. Regarding what occurred with the GM and Chrysler, taxpayer money was used to effectively save union jobs and pensions; and according to the USA Today article, cost US taxpayers approximately $9.3B. This does not include the billions lost by bondholders (many of whom were retirees) who were "bullied" into accepting terms effectively dictated by the Administration.

Two good articles.

Final tally: Taxpayers auto bailout loss $9.3B

The Obama administration bullies GM's bondholders

Details are to be released today, but it's been mentioned that the two key items are tax breaks and grants for training.

Living in Indy, I've heard the stories since Carrier originally made the announcement. This was long before Pence was announced as Trumps running mate. He (Pence) took a lot of heat because he couldn't get Carrier to even consider staying. It appears Trump is indeed quite the negotiator.
 

RDU Irish

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Details are to be released today, but it's been mentioned that the two key items are tax breaks and grants for training.

Living in Indy, I've heard the stories since Carrier originally made the announcement. This was long before Pence was announced as Trumps running mate. He (Pence) took a lot of heat because he couldn't get Carrier to even consider staying. It appears Trump is indeed quite the negotiator.

Could it be a businessman knows what motivates and incentivizes businessmen - even more than a politician? Novel f-ing concept. No offense to the board lawyers but damn if lawyers don't think they know everything - and that is what political ranks are predominantly overrun with.
 

Rizzophil

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Could it be a businessman knows what motivates and incentivizes businessmen - even more than a politician? Novel f-ing concept. No offense to the board lawyers but damn if lawyers don't think they know everything - and that is what political ranks are predominantly overrun with.

I totally agre. Crazy to me that people blast successful people for getting into politics. Our government needs successful people running it. Not career politicians or amateurs driving special interest
 

IrishinSyria

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...showed-corporations-how-to-beat-donald-trump/

Bernie Sanders savages the Carrier deal in this.

I'm kind of torn- I'm not a huge fan of Sanders but I kind of agree with him that this sets a bad precedent. You want attention and special treatment from President Trump? Threaten to offshore jobs.

This is why I think Trump can't (or at least shouldn't) proceed on a case by case basis. I disagree with Sanders on what the right remedy is though- an Outsourcing Prevention Act sounds terrible. I think it would be better to create incentives for companies that keep jobs in the US (that apply across the system and not to just one corporation). This probably includes lowering the corporate tax rate.

And I get that Carrier was central to his campaign so this isn't necessarily an indication that Trump will proceed on a case by case basis.

Finally, I think this focus on manufacturing by both Trump and Sanders is pretty misplaced. The golden age of American manufacturing is never coming back- better to adopt a set of policies that acknowledges that.
 

connor_in

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Question,

Do we know what Pence and Indiana was offering as incentives to stay long before the election and what what different from those item to the ones agreed to in order to keep a little less than half of the jobs from going outside the US? Do we know if the talks were all carrot and no stick or if Carrier was also threatened with a stick?

Answers to these questions will help to shape my view of this.
 
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