Truck plows into Christmas Market in Berlin

[Polish Leppy 22]

No they're probably grieving from a horrific terrorist attack that killed their loved ones. One of my close friends was just in Barcelona until three days ago, it was pretty spooky even for myself hearing the news as I didn't know he was back.

Terrorist attacks do more damage when you don't weigh them appropriately. When we make them bigger than they are, we aid the terrorists. I'm not downplaying anything, I provided data showing the minuscule scope of damage that ISIS-inspired terrorists have done in Europe lately. The fact that many people overstate their impact is both a tremendous indictment of our media structure and plays into the hands of both the terrorist organizations and far-Right anti-immigration entities. Strange bedfellows.

So I guess I'm sorry to push back on this notion that Europe is being overrun and obliterated by terrorist attacks. I'm sorry for bringing some data to a discussion and showing that Europe is going to be okay despite what many would have you believe.

13 people died today because of a terrorist and his vehicle. It takes less than three days for that many Spaniards to die in traffic accidents without terrorists.

Data? Here's some data for the smartest guy in the room every day: open borders in Europe + mass migration from the middle east + current birthrates in Europe = big trouble for Europe.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Violent, bigoted, and terrorist groups around the world would love to have you as a PR guy.

No I think they're quite happy that a terror attack of this size can be magnified to spread fear across the entire western world in an instant due to our current media. They love their current PR team.

"Yea, but what is the likely hood that YOU'LL be lynched? See, we're not so scary after all."

The differences here are that I don't downplay the horror of these attacks. I haven't said "terrific people on both sides" and sought some form of false equivalency copout like our President has with white supremacists.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Data? Here's some data for the smartest guy in the room every day: open borders in Europe + mass migration from the middle east + current birthrates in Europe = big trouble for Europe.

Data usually involves numbers. Try harder.

Mass migration to Europe was stymied after a March 2016 deal with Turkey. Read the news.

I oppose taking on such a large number of immigrants, I just do it because the *numbers* say they come from a culture that doesn't mesh with Western liberalism, e.g. equality for women and minorities, respect for a secular government, etc.

I'm not going to apologize for pointing out that the people who want to frame this as a bloodsoaked clash of civilization that is bringing Europe to its knees are just simply wrong.

And usually these same fools gloss over the context of how much better US refugee immigration policies are or even the fact that our legal immigration are hardworking Christians.

If data offends you grow a sack.

 

[Irish#1]

You italicize it but you are something like four times more likely to be crushed to death by your own furniture than to be killed in a terrorist attack.

It not even close to threatening Europe, yet people act like it's getting there. The UK alone underwent more terrorist attacks from the IRA than the whole of Europe is experiencing right now, and they made it through just fine.

No they're probably grieving from a horrific terrorist attack that killed their loved ones. One of my close friends was just in Barcelona until three days ago, it was pretty spooky even for myself hearing the news as I didn't know he was back.

Terrorist attacks do more damage when you don't weigh them appropriately. When we make them bigger than they are, we aid the terrorists. I'm not downplaying anything, I provided data showing the minuscule scope of damage that ISIS-inspired terrorists have done in Europe lately. The fact that many people overstate their impact is both a tremendous indictment of our media structure and plays into the hands of both the terrorist organizations and far-Right anti-immigration entities. Strange bedfellows.

So I guess I'm sorry to push back on this notion that Europe is being overrun and obliterated by terrorist attacks. I'm sorry for bringing some data to a discussion and showing that Europe is going to be okay despite what many would have you believe.

13 people died today because of a terrorist and his vehicle. It takes less than three days for that many Spaniards to die in traffic accidents without terrorists.

Sorry Buster, but when you compare an auto or furniture accident to a purposeful terrorist attack against other humans you've lost any credibility regardless of any statistics. Whether it is an isolated person or a an entire regiment of terrorists it's just wrong, period!

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Data usually involves numbers. Try harder.

Mass migration to Europe was stymied after a March 2016 deal with Turkey. Read the news.

I oppose taking on such a large number of immigrants, I just do it because the *numbers* say they come from a culture that doesn't mesh with Western liberalism, e.g. equality for women and minorities, respect for a secular government, etc.

I'm not going to apologize for pointing out that the people who want to frame this as a bloodsoaked clash of civilization that is bringing Europe to its knees are just simply wrong.

And usually these same fools gloss over the context of how much better US refugee immigration policies are or even the fact that our legal immigration are hardworking Christians.

If data offends you grow a sack.

I didn't know I had to educate you on the dramatic rise in migration numbers to Europe in conjunction with their rapidly declining birthrates. Pretty simple math, professor.

I've done my homework on the demographics and birthrates in Europe and am sure as hell not going to regurgitate all the numbers for you. Do it on your own.

Europe is committing demographic and cultural suicide.

 

[Woneone]

The differences here are that I don't downplay the horror of these attacks. I haven't said "terrific people on both sides" and sought some form of false equivalency copout like our President has with white supremacists.

You out-right compared the death-toll of the horrific attack to that of three days of automotive crashes. You acted like the photo of the carnage somehow didn't separate it from that comparison.

You didn't downplay the horror? Really?

 

[IrishLax]

You can twist the frequency/odds argument many different ways. Does a low frequency occurrence mean it doesn't matter? If it did, it'd mean we shouldn't care about Dylan Roof or the guy in Charlottesville because those kinds of things only happen once every couple years. Most would argue that's a terrible line of thinking.

Similarly, 8 unarmed black people have been shot by police this year. The count is 23 total for all races. That means black people only have approximately a 1 in 5,000,000 chance in a given year of getting shot and killed by police while unarmed. Should people tell all of those activists they shouldn't care and should go home because it's an infrequent occurrence?

The truth is why we care about terrorist attacks has nothing to do with the "odds" of being killed... it's that they target symbolic and culturally significant things. Bin Laden targets WTC (twice). Dylan Roof targets a black church. Islamic vehicular terror attacks in Europe target tourist hubs. So you can't just hand wave at it and be like "whatever, lightning strikes kill more people" because that's not really the point. One is an unavoidable part of life, the other is an action that if allowed to rise to prevalence directly impact the way a country or community functions.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Annnnnnnnd a jihadist in Finland just stabbed numerous people this morning screaming "alluha akbar." Please, Buster...preach to us more about how Europe being overwhelmed and "chances are pretty low that..."

 

[Buster Bluth]

Sorry Buster, but when you compare an auto or furniture accident to a purposeful terrorist attack against other humans you've lost any credibility regardless of any statistics. Whether it is an isolated person or a an entire regiment of terrorists it's just wrong, period!

Uh huh. See you're reading this as "this terrorist attack isn't so bad, people die in car crashes" and let me be very clear that I'm discussing it as "this is not overturning Europe, more people die from obscure causes." The terrorist attack is still horrific.

US National security agencies have essentially been saying the same thing. Our mere presence in the Middle East will invite sporadic terrorist attacks but they will not threaten our country's world power status and we will still obtain our objectives.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Annnnnnnnd a jihadist in Finland just stabbed numerous people this morning screaming "alluha akbar." Please, Buster...preach to us more about how Europe being overwhelmed and "chances are pretty low that..."

What is so hard to understand that the chances of dying in the dozen or so terrorist attacks still doesn't register as very likely in a political union of 510 million people? Does math offend you?

Europe is not being overrun. Jesus christ.

 

[Buster Bluth]

You can twist the frequency/odds argument many different ways. Does a low frequency occurrence mean it doesn't matter? If it did, it'd mean we shouldn't care about Dylan Roof or the guy in Charlottesville because those kinds of things only happen once every couple years. Most would argue that's a terrible line of thinking.

Similarly, 8 unarmed black people have been shot by police this year. The count is 23 total for all races. That means black people only have approximately a 1 in 5,000,000 chance in a given year of getting shot and killed by police while unarmed. Should people tell all of those activists they shouldn't care and should go home because it's an infrequent occurrence?

One, I did not say it doesn't matter. I shower data showing that these attacks will bear no fruit for ISIS and that talk of Europe being overrun were bullshit.

Two, at least with police shootings there is easier policy reform possible. The reforms needed to not have Islamic crazies coming after us would require a US withdrawal from the Middle East and no US policy advisor thinks that's a good trade. It's why they write about a new normal of having to fend off terrorist attacks.

But I've just combined US and EU causes and policies and that sloppy. They're two different animals.

The truth is why we care about terrorist attacks has nothing to do with the "odds" of being killed... it's that they target symbolic and culturally significant things. Bin Laden targets WTC (twice). Dylan Roof targets a black church. Islamic vehicular terror attacks in Europe target tourist hubs. So you can't just hand wave at it and be like "whatever, lightning strikes kill more people" because that's not really the point. One is an unavoidable part of life, the other is an action that if allowed to rise to prevalence directly impact the way a country or community functions.

It's an interesting notion, because our national security apparatus has said that terrorist attacks will be unavoidable if we want a presence in the Middle East.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

What is so hard to understand that the chances of dying in the dozen or so terrorist attacks still doesn't register as very likely in a political union of 510 million people? Does math offend you?

Europe is not being overrun. Jesus christ.

A dozen or so? HA...that's might be the UK alone by the end of 2017. Why are you avoiding math? Go look at the birthrates in Europe vs the number of "migrants" from the Middle East. Europe is completely being overrun. You just choose to ignore it or refuse to do 10 minutes of research because you'd rather disagree with me.

 

[Wild Bill]

It's an interesting notion, because our national security apparatus has said that terrorist attacks will be unavoidable if we want a presence in the Middle East.

What presence does Spain have in the middle east that would explain this attack.

 

[dublinirish]

What presence does Spain have in the middle east that would explain this attack.

they joined the war on terror going back to the Bush administration but pulled out after the Madrid train station bombings.

 

[IrishLax]

One, I did not say it doesn't matter. I shower data showing that these attacks will bear no fruit for ISIS and that talk of Europe being overrun were bullshit.

Two, at least with police shootings there is easier policy reform possible. The reforms needed to not have Islamic crazies coming after us would require a US withdrawal from the Middle East and no US policy advisor thinks that's a good trade. It's why they write about a new normal of having to fend off terrorist attacks.

But I've just combined US and EU causes and policies and that sloppy. They're two different animals.

1. It's only partially bullshit. Here's the part that isn't bullshit -- in the last three years, there has been a HUGE spike in fatal terror attacks in Europe: see Number of fatal terrorist attacks in western Europe increasing, data show | Reuters and Attacks in western Europe ... apologies if this has all been previously linked, I haven't been reading this thread that closely just read a couple choice posts yesterday before chiming in.

So in short comparing terror attack and fatality rates from 2012-2014 to 2015-2017 there is over a 500% spike in both. The fact that this trend has head steady for 3 years shows it is not a blip.

2. Sure, a lot of this is apples and oranges. I was just trying to pick an example of domestic issues that have a low frequency but are still significant and worthy of attention.

 

[wizards8507]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Senior Catalan police official says one police officer killed 4 of the suspects in Cambrils attack.</p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/status/898527930896306176">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Female officer apparently. Grade-A badass.

 

[Wild Bill]

they joined the war on terror going back to the Bush administration but pulled out after the Madrid train station bombings.

So both a current presence and a former presence can explains these attacks.

How does eastern Europe escape these attacks in spite of their presence, both former and current, in the middle east?

 

[NorthDakota]

Seeing on fox news website that Spanish police killed four bad guys running around with knives.

 

[IrishLax]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Senior Catalan police official says one police officer killed 4 of the suspects in Cambrils attack.</p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/status/898527930896306176">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Female officer apparently. Grade-A badass.

I'd watch that movie.

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">BREAKING: Senior Catalan police official says one police officer killed 4 of the suspects in Cambrils attack.</p>— The Associated Press (@AP) <a href="https://twitter.com/AP/status/898527930896306176">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Female officer apparently. Grade-A badass.

Pics or GTFO

 

[Voltaire]

yes but after that Catalan police officer's killstreak got to three she unlocked the remote explosive RC car, so that fourth takedown was a little cheap imho

 

[dublinirish]

So both a current presence and a former presence can explains these attacks.

How does eastern Europe escape these attacks in spite of their presence, both former and current, in the middle east?

https://twitter.com/i/moments/898557749176528897?lang=en

this explains the situation in spain with islamic terrorists.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">1. Good morning all. Late last night, I got a call from a source briefed on the Barcelona inquiry. What I learned: <a href="https://t.co/rR0WCUB2Tu">https://t.co/rR0WCUB2Tu</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898511352381280256">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">2. There were 3 related events: 1. An explosion in a house in Alcanar on Wed, the van attack in Barcelona Thurs and car attack in Cambrils</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898512137743683584">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">3. According to my source, police learned from rental car company that attackers had tried to rent a large truck. See ISIS' instructions: <a href="https://t.co/T1V2S2dj94">pic.twitter.com/T1V2S2dj94</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898512984863117314">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">4. Source briefed on investigation says they were foiled when the driver failed to produce the necessary permit to drive the large vehicle.</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898513791679377408">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">5. At that point, they decided to rent 2 smaller vans. Investigators then tied men to building in Alcanar that blew up Wed. Check out damage <a href="https://t.co/iTdvJha5bV">pic.twitter.com/iTdvJha5bV</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898514332622958597">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">6. That explosion had initially been dismissed as a gas leak. When they went back, they found house had been stocked with gas bottles</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898514998204432386">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">7. Investigators believe the attackers had a Plan A, a plan B and a Plan C.</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898515161627099139">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">8. Plan A was to load the large truck with explosives & ram it causing a catastrophic explosion. That failed bc they couldn't rent big truck</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898515551089303552">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">9. Plan B was to load 2 smaller vans with explosives. That failed too. They didn't know how to prep the explosive & blew up house instead <a href="https://t.co/YjI0nruAAK">pic.twitter.com/YjI0nruAAK</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898516026924687361">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">10. That brought them to Plan C which was to use 2 smaller cars to ram people, first on the Ramblas, and later in the town of Cambril</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898516338435645440">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">11. What I also learned came from the erudite Lorenzo Vidino of <a href="https://twitter.com/gwupoe">@gwupoe</a>, who spent part of 2012 studying Salafists in Catalan</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898517334117298176">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">12. Lorenzo Vidino explained to me that the town of Cambrils where the attack happened is next to Salou. Both play a role in the 9/11 attack <a href="https://t.co/i0HAmEmSIA">pic.twitter.com/i0HAmEmSIA</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898521944273944576">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">13. It was in Salou that Mohamed Atta, the pilot of 1st plane to fly into the World Trade Center, had a key meeting with an al-Qaeda figure: <a href="https://t.co/GRmhZZehM6">pic.twitter.com/GRmhZZehM6</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898522330586021888">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">14. Here's the 2002 reporting of colleague Doug Frantz who traveled to the coastal villages to piece together 9/11: <a href="https://t.co/s0zlhhNthE">https://t.co/s0zlhhNthE</a></p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898522832308776960">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">16. Based on complexity of this plot, this appears to have been work of a network. Should give us pause when we next declare defeat of ISIS</p>— Rukmini Callimachi (@rcallimachi) <a href="https://twitter.com/rcallimachi/status/898525827100549122">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script><blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">You can't "bomb the s**t" out of an ideology like ISIS's. They're not afraid to die & that approach often fuels it. <a href="https://t.co/rFcfNqtKo4">https://t.co/rFcfNqtKo4</a></p>— Sulome Anderson (@SulomeAnderson) <a href="https://twitter.com/SulomeAnderson/status/898538037164093440">August 18, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Voltaire]

Data usually involves numbers. Try harder.

If data offends you grow a sack.

The very selective application of this sentiment never disappoints.

I have a hard time believing that you would go up to someone at a BLM rally screaming about how blacks are being targeted for execution in the streets by white cops, and say something like, "I guess I'm sorry, but you know, if you look at the statistics, your chances of being struck by lightning in any given year rounds to 0.00% (according to data from the NOAA), while your chances of being killed by a cop while black rounds to 0.00% (according to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics), so you should maybe spend your time doing something productive like going home and doing your homework as opposed to pulling your pants down to your knees and going out to light minority-owned convenience stores on fire. Your refrigerator is literally more dangerous than the KKK or racist cops."

The thing is I don't disagree with the notion that the likeihood of being killed by a terrorist attack in Europe today is statistically infinitesimal, but the thing that makes these conversations so unproductive is that the application of statistics and logic are always just applied to whatever your seemingly arbitrarily preferred group is. It's hard to find a conversation about serious, complicated issues (and medium/long-term impact of Islamic terrorism and refugee migration is certainly one of them along with police-involved shootings being another important topic) where at least one or both of the participants don't have their head in the sand.

 

[Irish#1]

Sorry Buster, but when you compare an auto or furniture accident to a purposeful terrorist attack against other humans you've lost any credibility regardless of any statistics. Whether it is an isolated person or a an entire regiment of terrorists it's just wrong, period!

Uh huh. See you're reading this as "this terrorist attack isn't so bad, people die in car crashes" and let me be very clear that I'm discussing it as "this is not overturning Europe, more people die from obscure causes." The terrorist attack is still horrific.

US National security agencies have essentially been saying the same thing. Our mere presence in the Middle East will invite sporadic terrorist attacks but they will not threaten our country's world power status and we will still obtain our objectives.

No, I wasn't reading it as "this terrorist attack isn't so bad, people die in car crashes". A terrorist attack that kills just one is horrific. My point is you can't compare an accidental death to murder.

 

[BGIF]

Truck attack in Barcelona.

Another attack at the beach.

Bomb factory explosion.

Finnish knife attacks investigated as terror crimes: police | Reuters


Sounds like the refrigerator ran amuck through the kitchen.

The big screen TV flew off the wall.

The armoire jumped across the bedroom

Think I'll pass on an AI smart home.

 

[Cackalacky]

What presence does Spain have in the middle east that would explain this attack.

The Catholic-Muslim connection with Spain is centuries old.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Barcelona chief rabbi urges Jews to leave Spain: 'This place is lost' - Europe - Haaretz.com

Barcelona Chief Rabbi Urges Jews to Leave Spain: 'This Place Is Lost'

 

[Cackalacky]

No, I wasn't reading it as "this terrorist attack isn't so bad, people die in car crashes". A terrorist attack that kills just one is horrific. My point is you can't compare an accidental death to murder.

This sounds eerily similar to ...."More people are killed by drug overdoses than by people with guns...." or something to that effect?

Maybe if took this stance on gun violence .....what is the difference btw a terror attack that kills one and a single white male killing 9 in a church? Ultimately. Nothing except # lives lost. The people of Charleston were just as terrified for a while there.

 

[BGIF]

So both a current presence and a former presence can explains these attacks.

How does eastern Europe escape these attacks in spite of their presence, both former and current, in the middle east?

Spain history, population, and proximity to Africa and the Sahel plus involvement with allies makes it a fertile target of opportunity for Isis given their resources.

Eastern Europe hasn't escaped. See the Balkans.

If you're talking Austria, Hungary, Slovakia, Rumania, Bulgaria, Moldova ... give it time. Rome wasn't destroyed in a day.

 

[wizards8507]

Religion of peace strikes again.