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yankeeND

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This has been the greatest thread I have read on here by far, at least non football related. I certainly do not have the answer to the OP's question but I learned a lot from the rest of you in your responses. Whether you believe or not is something you have to live with and the only thing I would advise upon is when the time comes where you meet your fate, be ready to answer why that is. I always think it's better to be prepared, especially when meeting someone so prestigious.
 

NDohio

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It's worth noting that all Christian denominations uniformly condemned contraception use prior to the 20th century. But yes, now the Roman and some Orthodox Churches are virtually alone in prohibiting it.



Not true. Luther and Calvin both cited the story of Onan in Genesis as the basis for Protestant opposition to contraception; a stance which all Protestant churches maintained until the Anglican church approved its use under certain circumstances at the Lambeth Conference in 1930.

You are correct. I should have qualified myself as stating this as after Christ wiped the laws of the Old Testament clean. Unless Christ reaffirmed it, then it is commonly not followed in many protestant churches.


The first half of sentence is obvious, as the Catholic church is basically alone in maintaining its stance against contraception now. But the second half is a naked assertion of your own religious dogma. Your (presumably Protestant) church may teach as much, but simply stating it doesn't make it so.

This is true - and I will go back to part of the conversation from earlier that we do not have a full understanding of what is or what is not sin. This is where we get into that part of the conversation in which religion may sometimes take things to a different level than Christianity.

Also - to your later post of contraception never being a sin, I don't believe that. If contraception is used post conception or out of wedlock, then certainly it is a sin but for reasons beyond just being contraception.


Again, this is the Protestant view, and is not representative of Christianity generally. All of the "high" churches hold that the sacraments convey special graces, which would make them much more than merely symbolic rituals.

I am not saying that baptism is not important and is not a very special action that we perform to announce publicly that we are a follower of Christ. My contention is that it is not a requirement for salvation. It is often a requirement to join a church, whether that be a Catholic church or some protestant churches, and that again takes us into religion.

I didn't mean to come off as anti-Catholicism if that is how you interpreted my post. Not my intent at all. I do believe that in many cases religion is very important for a person to grow closed in their relationship with God. I also believe that sometimes we need to strip away some of that which is religious and get to the bare bones of what is Christianity, the absolutes of why we believe in God and what Christ's purpose on earth was.
 

BobD

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Is there a God?

Oddly proving nonexistence could end up being apocalyptic.
 
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Cackalacky

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In the end it is just very significant evidence for the inflationary model. As far as scientists go, it is confirmation of the "Big Bang" back to between 1x10^-32 and 1x10^-35 seconds after the beginning of the observable universe.

Its kind a of a big deal IMO. From what I read a few weeks ago, there were rumors this was going to be published. Now that it has been published, astronomers and physicists say it will rule out a lot of current models. Seems like these guys will be getting a Nobel Prize.

The timing of inflation, in turn, tells physicists about the energy scale of the universe when inflation was going on. BICEP2’s value of r suggests that this was the same energy scale at which all the forces of nature except gravity (the electromagnetic, strong and weak forces) might have been unified into a single force—an idea called grand unified theory. The finding bolsters the idea of grand unification and rules out a number of inflation models that do not feature such an energy scale. “This really collapses the space of plausible inflationary models by a huge amount,” Kamionkowski says. “Instead of looking for a needle in a haystack, we’ll be looking for a needle in a bucket of sand.” Grand unified theories suggest the existence of new fields that act similarly to the Higgs field associated with the Higgs boson particle discovered in 2012. These new fields, in turn, would indicate that other, heavier Higgs boson particles also exist, although with masses so high they would be impossible to create in any traditional particle accelerator. “This measurement is allowing us to use the early universe as a lab for new physics in energy ranges that are otherwise inaccessible to us,” Kamionkowski says
Gravity Waves from Big Bang Detected - Scientific American
 
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Grahambo

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woolybug25

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I found this part of the article interesting too.

Another cool tidbit: Inflation can be used in theories that suggest the existence of multiple universes, Irwin said, although these results do not directly address such theories.
 
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Cackalacky

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I am glad I misunderstood. What I meant by "we are all liberals" is basically what Whiskeyjack stated above. The distinction between left and right and conservatives and liberals is a false one (read The article Whiskeyjack linked to). We are all a part of the liberal movement dating back to founding fathers. If you claim to be a conservative today, you are still really a liberal or better yet neo-liberal.

Define my morality? No tall order there. I believe all of our morals are subjective in origins and only become objective via laws, and common practice. I know that is not going to suffice for you but I could spend all day and not be successful.
 

wizards8507

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Define my morality? No tall order there. I believe all of our morals are subjective in origins and only become objective via laws, and common practice. I know that is not going to suffice for you but I could spend all day and not be successful.
So nothing is malum in se (wrong in itself)? You just defer to malum prohibitum (wrong because it's prohibited) for all morality? Why do you assume that the laws and "common practice" in themselves are legitimate?

You see the conclusions you're backing yourself into? Your logic would lead one to conclude that gay marriage is objectively immoral because it's illegal, which I know you don't believe. There are some serious inconsistencies there.
 

Whiskeyjack

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If you claim to be a conservative today, you are still really a liberal or better yet neo-liberal.

I'd like to think I'm neither of those, which probably makes me a freak with zero chance of influencing the political process.

Define my morality? No tall order there. I believe all of our morals are subjective in origins and only become objective via laws, and common practice. I know that is not going to suffice for you but I could spend all day and not be successful.

In other words, you don't believe in objective morality. Positive laws can be amended or abolished, and today's common practice is tomorrow's anachronism. It really does come down to Aristotle v. Nietzsche; there's no coherent 3rd alternative. If you've thought through the moral implications of that world view and still believe it to be true, then props to you for being principled. But you hold several strong beliefs (environmentalism, for instance) that are inconsistent with nihilism.
 
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Veritate Duce Progredi

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So nothing is malum in se (wrong in itself)? You just defer to malum prohibitum (wrong because it's prohibited) for all morality? Why do you assume that the laws and "common practice" in themselves are legitimate?

You see the conclusions you're backing yourself into? Your logic would lead one to conclude that gay marriage is objectively immoral because it's illegal, which I know you don't believe. There are some serious inconsistencies there.

:) Not fair, you spoiled the surprise ending that hasn't really been surprising in the last couple millennia.
 

pkt77242

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So nothing is malum in se (wrong in itself)? You just defer to malum prohibitum (wrong because it's prohibited) for all morality? Why do you assume that the laws and "common practice" in themselves are legitimate?

You see the conclusions you're backing yourself into? Your logic would lead one to conclude that gay marriage is objectively immoral because it's illegal, which I know you don't believe. There are some serious inconsistencies there.

I don't believe that is what he was saying, though I could be wrong.

I think he was more arguing that morals are subjective (everyone has a slightly different view of right or wrong, and some people have very different views of right and wrong and that what is right or wrong can change drastically by the situation in which the action takes place not just the action itself. I.E. stealing might be right or wrong depending on the situation or at least morally ambiguous) but that laws make it concrete (either you are following the law or not following the law, there really is very little in-between), not necessarily morally right or wrong.
 

UmphreakDomer

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Whisky--im an atheist. and i love jesus. jesus was an awesome guy. i just choose to not believe in the "magic show" stuff. the message and the "story" isn't all that different from Siddhartha or tons of other Mesopotamian stories from about 3000 years ago.

i just don't feel the need to go to a building, give some money, and grab coffee and doughnuts.

you can believe all that you want. again, if you are morally sound, i won't have a problem with you.
 

Ndaccountant

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Whisky--im an atheist. and i love jesus. jesus was an awesome guy. i just choose to not believe in the "magic show" stuff. the message and the "story" isn't all that different from Siddhartha or tons of other Mesopotamian stories from about 3000 years ago.

i just don't feel the need to go to a building, give some money, and grab coffee and doughnuts.

you can believe all that you want. again, if you are morally sound, i won't have a problem with you.

probably wrong place and wrong time, but your post made me think of this

the-might-of-jesus-o.gif
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I could care less about people's religious beliefs on this board. With that said, I am surprised by the number of non-Christians/ atheists/ whatever, considering people on this board are big fans of the University of Notre Dame, the most prominent Catholic school in the country.

Does it bother me? No. Do I care? Nah. Surprised? Yep.
 
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Cackalacky

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I'd like to think I'm neither of those, which probably makes me a freak with zero chance of influencing the political process.



In other words, you don't believe in objective morality. Positive laws can be amended or abolished, and today's common practice is tomorrow's anachronism. It really does come down to Aristotle v. Nietzsche; there's no coherent 3rd alternative. If you've thought through the moral implications of that world view and still believe it to be true, then props to you for being principled. But you hold several strong beliefs (environmentalism, for instance) that are inconsistent with nihilism.

We have had this discussion before and subjective morality is not the same as moral nihilism.
 

UmphreakDomer

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I could care less about people's religious beliefs on this board. With that said, I am surprised by the number of non-Christians/ atheists/ whatever, considering people on this board are big fans of the University of Notre Dame, the most prominent Catholic school in the country.

Does it bother me? No. Do I care? Nah. Surprised? Yep.

whats the alternative Leppy? Michigan? FUCK THAT!
 
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Cackalacky

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I don't believe that is what he was saying, though I could be wrong.

I think he was more arguing that morals are subjective (everyone has a slightly different view of right or wrong, and some people have very different views of right and wrong and that what is right or wrong can change drastically by the situation in which the action takes place not just the action itself. I.E. stealing might be right or wrong depending on the situation or at least morally ambiguous) but that laws make it concrete (either you are following the law or not following the law, there really is very little in-between), not necessarily morally right or wrong.

Yes. We clearly define what we as a society are willing to tolerate and uphold. Other cultures do their own thing.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Whisky--im an atheist.

That's fine. Some of the most intelligent posters on this board are apparently atheists as well.

you can believe all that you want. again, if you are morally sound, i won't have a problem with you.

What do you consider "morally sound"? Objective morality doesn't really square with atheism.

You made some sweeping statements about where the limits of religious liberty in America should be set; that's what I was responding to.
 

Whiskeyjack

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We have had this discussion before and subjective morality is not the same as moral nihilism.

Ethical rules flow directly from one's metaphysical outlook. If your metaphysical starting point is that objective morality doesn't exist (Nietzsche), then there's no coherent way to defend meaningful ethical rules. Relativism has the same problem in the philosophical realm as it does in the empirical; if your scientific model only has predictive power under a very limited set of circumstances, then it's not a very good model. One can hardly have claimed to have discovered a "law". Same goes for models of morality that fail to apply universally.

Yes. We clearly define what we as a society are willing to tolerate and uphold. Other cultures do their own thing.

So what's the source of authority behind this relativistic morality then? Simple group observance? How is that anything other than some individuals imposing their will upon others? It's still Nietzsche.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I could care less about people's religious beliefs on this board. With that said, I am surprised by the number of non-Christians/ atheists/ whatever, considering people on this board are big fans of the University of Notre Dame, the most prominent Catholic school in the country.

Does it bother me? No. Do I care? Nah. Surprised? Yep.

A good number of Jews are pretty atheist these days, but still embrace the culture. I guess there's some similarity in that I was raised in a pretty Catholic environment, in a country/hemisphere dominated by Christians, and I too still embrace elements of the culture while being an atheist/agnostic/whothefuckknowsist.

I assume most of the Notre Dame players aren't Catholic, and they sure as shit aren't Irish haha. They respect Catholicism to varying degrees though, I am sure. A ton of great people are Catholics, I am not one. But I'm a fan of their football team.
 
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Cackalacky

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Ethical rules flow directly from one's metaphysical outlook. If your metaphysical starting point is that objective morality doesn't exist (Nietzsche), then there's no coherent way to defend meaningful ethical rules. Relativism has the same problem in the philosophical realm as it does in the empirical; if your scientific model only has predictive power under a very limited circumstances, then it's not a very good model. One can hardly have claimed to have discovered a "law". Same goes for models of morality that fail to apply universally.

You are asserting a metaphysical basis is the origin of morals and ethics. I contend they are derived from and evolve with the varying culture's interactions on this planet and with other cultures. Japan's feudal structure and system of behavior (GIRI) evolved almost in direct isolation from Western Culture for millenia (or at least repelled significant influences). It is still in practice today and is very much different from our common concepts of moral and valued behavior, however it is currently losing its practice western based individualistic behaviors are now taking root and most likely will supplant it. Morals and values in Afghanistan are for more conservative and more fervently held than ours. They see us as something very much different than we see ourselves. Who is right? Who is wrong?

So what's the source of authority behind this relativistic morality then? Simple group observance? How is that anything other than some individuals imposing their will upon others? It's still Nietzsche.
We are the source of our authority codified in the laws we allow to exist. China is the source of their authority. Kim Jong Il is the source of his authority. It's not nihilism. Morals exist and the authority of those morals is not metaphysical, or if it is (which I disagree) at least it must somehow be the source of all the different moral codes practiced today and the past. Natural law is not sufficient in this matter either.
 

Whiskeyjack

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You are asserting a metaphysical basis is the origin of morals and ethics.

Yes. Catholic theology (and Aristotelian philosophy before it) believes strongly in Consilience; which, in the philosophical realm, is probably best articulated by CS Lewis' concept of the Tao:

In his 1944 book The Abolition of Man, Lewis wrote in support of the great moral tradition that units nearly all of humanity who seek wisdom in ancient texts and modes of life. We have a choice, he argued, of either being part of this great tradition that he called “The Tao” (or “The Way”) or we can be outside all legitimate claims of morality. Morality is to be found, not created, he taught.

“The human mind has no more power of inventing a new value than of imagining a new primary colour, or, indeed, of creating a new sun and a new sky for it to move in.”

It is modern man, scientific and materialist man, who seeks to break the cake of old morality to fit his new ambitions rather than to make his ambitions fit within the larger scheme of natural law that unites so much of the Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Confucionist, Roman, Greek and pagan traditions. Despite our political divisions, the true divide in the contemporary world might be between those who seek to live their lives within the Tao and those who seek to blot any such concept out of the hearts of men and thereby liberate us to be anything any current generation of individuals choose.

It strikes me as odd that most atheists insist on strict consilience in the empirical realm, but are so tolerant of incoherence in their metaphysical and moral outlooks.

I contend they are derived from and evolve with the varying culture's interactions on this planet and with other cultures.

Evolution, Dawkins' "altruism" genes, etc. cannot be the basis for an authoritative morality, because evolution is an arbitrary process. Order does not spontaneously arise out of chaos.

Morals and values in Afghanistan are for more conservative and more fervently held than ours. They see us as something very much different than we see ourselves. Who is right? Who is wrong?

If an objective cosmic order exists, then they're all reflective of it (to varying degrees). If no such objective cosmic order exists, then they're all empty and utterly devoid of authority. There's no 3rd coherent alternative.

We are the source of our authority codified in the laws we allow to exist. China is the source of their authority. Kim Jong Il is the source of his authority. It's not nihilism.

"Objective morality does not exist. Only our collective will." That is text book Nietzsche. I understand that you probably aren't comfortable with the label of "nihilist", but you haven't really distinguished your views from his.

Morals exist and the authority of those morals is not metaphysical, or if it is (which I disagree) at least it must somehow be the source of all the different moral codes practiced today and the past.

If the source of what you're calling "morality" isn't metaphysical, then it's devoid of authority. And as I mentioned above, the differences in morality between various cultures does not disprove Natural Law one bit.

Natural law is not sufficient in this matter either.

Maybe not, but it's the only coherent alternative to nihilism. Despite all his hand-waving about genetics, Dawkins is still just painting a smiley face on Nietzsche.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Whisky--im an atheist. and i love jesus. jesus was an awesome guy. i just choose to not believe in the "magic show" stuff. the message and the "story" isn't all that different from Siddhartha or tons of other Mesopotamian stories from about 3000 years ago.

i just don't feel the need to go to a building, give some money, and grab coffee and doughnuts.

you can believe all that you want. again, if you are morally sound, i won't have a problem with you.

Jesus was either a lunatic, schizophrenic or He was what He said He was. He made some very bold statements about being the only way to the Father, eating his flesh and drinking his blood, etc.

Your idea that Jesus was just a cool guy with a message of peace doesn't mesh well with the records of His life.

He made some bold statements about pitting sons against mothers and daughters against mothers.

I don't think there is a consistent framework for viewing Jesus as something good but not the perfect good, ie - God.

How do you reconcile this belief that he is just another Siddhartha? Another Buddha? Steppenwolf was a very good read for me, btw (only tangentially related).

Do you just lump all beliefs without scientific testability as "cool, romantic conceptions of how to live one's life"?
 
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Buster Bluth

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Jesus was either a lunatic, schizophrenic or He was what He said He was.

Or...

Jesus was an Jewish preacher of the apocalyptic variety (quite popular in 1st century Judea) who was likely a disciple of John the Baptist and eventually branched off on his own. He preached that the end of the world was coming soon and that the Son of Man, not speaking of himself, would come to judge the living and the dead. He lived, begrudgingly, under Roman rule. He, and nearly all Jews, saw this as an occupation of God's people and land. Jesus privately claimed to be the Messiah, the one who would push the Romans out of Judea and start the Kingdom of God. He promised the twelve apostles that they would be leaders of the twelve tribes of Israel (Judas included), and that we would rule God's kingdom above them as King.

As Jesus' ministry picked up steam among the poor, coincidentally Pontius Pilate came to town (from his administrative post in Caesarea) during Passover, the time of year when Jews celebrated Moses freeing them from the Egyptians and thus when anti-Roman sentiment reached an annual high point. Pontius Pilate, already having been removed from office twice by Augustus for being too brutal, brought troops with him to crucify those who wished to attempt to overthrow Roman rule. Judas, for reasons unknown, told the authorities that Jesus had been privately telling them that he was the Jewish Messiah who will do just that. He brought them to Jesus and he was swiftly crucified, with "King of the Jews" being written above his cross as a warning to others.

Immediately upon Jesus' death his followers believed in his resurrection from the dead. They claimed that he was the Son of Man he was referencing, and they he will return shortly to judge everyone. The Kingdom of God moved from a Earthly realm to a celestial realm. Early followers believed that God had anointed Jesus and raised him up past the likes of Moses and Elijah. Others believed he was now a god. Others believes he was an angel who took human form and was then anointed by God. Other believes that he was adopted by God, became Son of God, and was to inherit the whole Earth, in a similar way that Caesar adopted Octavian to inherit Roman rule. Mark hints that he became Son of God at his baptism, Matthew and Luke indicate that he became Son of God at his birth, and in John Jesus was the Son of God since before creation. They sorted all this out centuries later at Nicea and the rest is history.

He made some very bold statements about being the only way to the Father, eating his flesh and drinking his blood, etc.

I have problems with that line of thinking. What about people to which he did not reveal himself? Whiskey, I believe, told me that Catholicism is not the only way to "the Father," but simply the best way. It's how he explained that even pre-Columbian Native Americans could go to Heaven, due to objective moral truths. Which one of you is wrong?

I would also claim that Jesus only made "bold statements about being the only way..." in the Gospel of John. John being the last of the gospels, written during the height of the "was he actually God?" debate. Why won't his claims of being God show up in Mark?

Your idea that Jesus was just a cool guy with a message of peace doesn't mesh well with the records of His life.

I would agree, but I don't think your views line up with history either.

I don't think there is a consistent framework for viewing Jesus as something good but not the perfect good, ie - God.

That's a fair statement.
 
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