Although I believe that what Walter is quoting is honestly thought and presented by that pastor, I believe that it is an error of greatest profundity based upon the improper use of the [in the end] nonsense concepts of infinity and eternity. Using the absolutist and extreme concepts common in Platonic philosophy, the early Church theologians fell prey to the belief that the concept of all-everything had to be applied to God --- all-powerful, all-seeing, all-knowing --- you fill in the unending list. This was followed in writings regardless of whether the application made sense or not. God the All-xyz simply trumped reason without debate.
God is, of course, NOT All-everything. God is not All-life and All-death, All-left and All-right, All-solid or All-empty. Well, of course "We didn't mean THAT did we?" Then what do we mean? The point is that we should use our minds a little and if that means dumping a slavish adherence to Platonic philosophy, why not?
The key here is the All-Knowing concept. As Creator of the entire Universe, God certainly is well positioned for that at the very beginning of things, and as Required Maintainer of the Order created out of the Chaotic Sea, God remains so well positioned in the snapshot state we call NOW. So: Past, good; Present, good. What about the future? The future does not exist. AND because the basis of the physical universe is Quantum Indeterminism, you cannot even predict it given "perfect current knowledge." An undetermined future of an indeterminant system means NO sure knowledge available. GOD DOES NOT KNOW THE FUTURE.
Therefore, there is no need for the "election" conundrum, and there is a free and open future for choices to be truly presented and genuinely made. God wasn't stupid in creating a universe of which even such a Mind could not "see" what it would become --- rather God was, surprise, A Genius --- making the only possible Universe in which True Love could be generated by every intelligent person who arose in it.
Platonic perfections and absolutes have done good service in aiding the human mind in certain ways --- this is not one of them.
A) This thread exhibits more love, and demonstrates the fact that as far as I can tell, to the poster the entirety of the contributors are generally kind and loving. That is the miracle some alluded to; and it is the greatest of miracles.
B) I had a class we disproved free will and replaced it with a concept we called free won't. Free won't is what is on display every time we resist the raw animal nature of our humanity. We looked at humans as a "deeper pool" than any other instance we could find in the natural physical world. With that we have the blessing and curse to at all times have to deal with our human (lower more animal) nature, and our higher (spiritual and divine) nature. Where did we find the dividing line between the two? The abstractions that resulted in an honest emotional representation of what Mike said : true love.
We even discounted a mothers love of an infant due to the infants inherently cute nature, hormones present with the mother, and memory of the extreme cost (pain) of child birth. But there are two many instances between siblings and between the parents and children when they are older for this connection to be all out of the lower nature. And then when you find everything from Samaritanism to one soldier sacrificing his life for another, by example, say, falling on a hand grenade, we can see evidence of the higher nature.
When 95% of the population will chose the altruistic solution when two or more solutions are presented, with a small difference in net costs, or even when the altruistic choice is more costly, and be happy with their choice, as well as express gratification at choosing that specific option, we can see how profound that nature is to our species.
3) What proves the divinity and importance of Jesus' word was the level of the love and morality found in his code. The selflessness, that some call agape, is presented in a way never before or since so greater expressed. And I think one of the biggest sins of Christianity, (many other organized religions are no better), is that it has purposely and concertedly tried to dampen his message to us about the divinity among us all.
4) To carry that on WW you know how much respect I have for you. I consider you a compadre of the highest order on IE. But I have to say Doctrines of Electionism, back to its synergistic roots as an outgrowth of Calvinistic thought, to whit, related to Predestination or Pre-determinism. This has led to the greatest crimes of history including but not limited to genocide. A perfect case in point is Oliver Cromwell and his evil campaign in Ireland. He stated that it was is goal to kill as many Irish as he could (genocide), and that is increasingly brutal and barbaric methods were used specifically to make the population submit to their fate (as he saw it) of brutal rape, killing of innocents, and the annihilation of the entire native population.
Some point to old Ollie as the originator of some of the ideas cherished by our Founding Fathers. I scoff at this. Though through his successors, (the pilgrims among others) early treatment of Native Americans, and its adoption by succeeding European and then American white populations, I must agree that Ollie's ideas had a profound affect on the shaping of our country. Unfortunately I see it as the responsible thought for the paradigm that resulted in over 90% of the historical events that we identify as a stain on our country's good name.
So this awkward alliance between another (supernatural and divine being) and ourselves is shaky ground. To discuss it I think there needs to be unanimity on a couple of issues : Do you believe in independent supernatural beings that have the ability to dip in and out of our world affecting a broad range of occurrences? Do you believe that the flaw in us that makes us not worthy occurs in the divine part of our nature or the more human and natural? Or do you even believe by nature humans contain both?
I believe humans have both a divine and animal presence to them. I do not believe it is supernatural or capricious, capable of being changed by a winged fairy or newt or some other hobbit like creature. Is their a process in my mind? Yes. It occurs by us using our free won't to construct and recreate ourselves so we continue to sense and do in a less and less self centered and self concerned manner. This in turn allows us to do so, more and more. But all of this is available to all of us every day in this natural world. And it allows us to gain more and more spiritual significance. (Everyone can see this in themselves and others when it happens, and everyone can become lost from the process, at almost any time, I believe.)
So this is a relationship of the divine and the human. But it is not an interaction of two disparate beings across a gulf of two different or non-intersecting worlds, one spiritual and unseen, one physical and painful and here and present. This is why it is a shame that someone wants to suppress the message of the divine that is found in all of us; this is why the final misunderstanding of deterministic principals, though from accurate and honorable origins, results in some of the greatest of atrocities; and this is the final lost message of Jesus that I believe I have discovered through reading, studying, and putting my life experiences in perspective.
I believe with my every breath, that heaven begins here on earth. In that divine spark which truly makes us who we are. I believe Jesus truly tasked us with making our world, through our lives, every day, the beginnings of heaven, for us our family and others. It may look like nothing more than a disposition or state of mind to some; it may involve inventing a better mouse trap to others. It may look like soothing a hungry child, just one more hungry child, to a third person. But even Jesus had a warning. He wanted us to be safe in this. He wanted to warn us of those that did not have this same capacity.
To pre-qualify my next statement I am not advocating that anyone with any specific condition, disease, anomaly, behavior, background, or country of origin meets the following criterion, or is automatically, or necessarily part of this group. But a place to look is in sociopathy. Those that don't have the wiring to connect, at all. Those that find pleasure in that which repulses and horrifies us, and those that can think of no world, or no place other than their self, or any goal other than self-preservation, or self-aggrandizement, is a pretty good place to start.
There are many types of damage and disease that can affect our brain's pre-frontal cortex, an area of prime importance to our function as a healthy and social being. There are as many possibilities as there are unique anatomical presentations. In other words, each of us is unique and this is a case by case, person by person, proposition. The net result is there is a small but significant subset of the human population not capable of feeling all or any of what we feel. Is it a void? Is it just the wrong thing at the wrong time? Is it just no sense of future or past, therefore no fear of consequences? I don't know. For the sake of this conversation though I think there are some that cannot connect with that which makes them human, let alone that spark inside which links us to the divine, the spiritual. I think those poor souls are done. This is the truth determinism started from.
But as my grandfather used to say, "If you want to speak more truth, use fewer words that are untrue." We were warned on this earth of those that could take us from our divine, spiritual fulfillment. We were taught not to hate. That is the embodiment of the purpose and the plan of the standard, " . . . turn the other cheek . . ," but not the end game. Everything of Jesus' life is a warning of not getting mired in that which makes us less than we were, than we could be. Including, dealing with these people, and their toxic presence in society and our lives. (I am not insinuating that every toxic relationship we have is a result of us, pre-angles mixing with these demons. In fact, I am sure all of us have been toxic at one time or another to someone else.) Instead I am saying the medium of this toxic broadcast is itself perpetuated and facilitated by the social influence of these succubus' existence and actions. A sociopath in your life is a drain, emotionally or physically or even financially. These demons in human forms are drains on the lives of
everybody, except those they fear, and those they can use, or are setting up to use.
That is what I got from ten years of Catholic Parochial education, and ten years of public, or college, undergraduate and graduate education. And from my own, varied, life experiences that took place everywhere and every how from being "under arms" on five continents, to traveling to every state in the Union, making time to parent seven children, and come back home to take care of my elderly and dying mother, when no one else would, trying to make her final days heaven on earth.
