"The God Particle" Input needed.

phork

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We are all doomed the second they start opening worm holes with that collider.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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The big problem with the "standard model" of physics is that there is no way to mesh gravity with quantum phenomena. Gravity does show some characteristics in common with the other forces (e.g. it travels at the speed of light), but to this point no "messenger particle" has been observed.

The Higgs Boson is basically a theory of how gravity works and requires the existence of a certain particle which permeates space. If the LHC were to uncover the existence of the Higgs Boson it would be a huge win for mainstream theoretical physics to make such an accurate prediction. Even if the LHC fails to reveal the Higgs Boson, that would merely eliminate certain ranges of characteristics and some future, more powerful, particle accelerator may be able to probe different energy levels.

From what I understand, if the Higgs Boson does not exist, there are no real coherent alternative theories out there. Quantum gravity (which requires the existence of a different particle - the graviton) once held promise but there is no getting around the fact that it predicts things such as (most famously) proton decay which has never been observed.

On an ND related note, the University has one of the teams crunching data from the LHC and observed an irregularity in the speed at which neutrinos were moving. It is some small suggestion that the speed of light had been breached. However, IMO, that discovery is most likely due to our poor existing data for the mass of neutrinos.
 

Pops Freshenmeyer

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We are all doomed the second they start opening worm holes with that collider.

Not that you're being serious but... gamma particles hit the moon at higher energies than the LHC can generate and the moon is still there.
 

Rizzophil

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The key point to me is that "they" spent billions on a machine when the whole world is getting swallowed up by debt.

Also, it is extremely unfortunate that the whole education world doesn't even open the door for Intelligent Design.
 

Old Man Mike

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Hmmm.... well, this is a particularly tough one since even the theoretical physicists don't know what they're talking about here. But I'll give it a try:

1). Particle physicists have been searching for mechanisms whereby the fundamental forces of the Universe ultimately relate to one another [the forces being Gravity, Electromagnetism, the Weak Nuclear Force which causes certain transmutations and radioactive decay, and the Strong Nuclear Force which binds nuclei together]. They've found the "signatures" of force-carrying particles in the remnants of "atom-smashing" particle accelerator results, and feel that the glimpses of these short-lasting particles indicate that they can be "joined" [in a sense] or melded into "the same" particle at high enough energy densities --- in other words: as you go back to the energy dense state of the very early Universe, all these force-carriers become alike --- or, those forces become the same --- or, we are on the way to understanding a unifying theory of everything that exists [The TOE, Theory of Everything; I'm not kidding you guys, this is the lingo used].

2). The big hang-up has been that the force carrier for Gravity never shows up. So no TOE. To attempt to get Gravity to behave, the theoreticians have modeled a prime target "most wanted subatomic shadowmaster" to be the agent which takes the uber-hot energy soup of the earliest Universe, and forces areas of that chaos to "pause" and mass-ify ... i.e. to become "particles" out of the chaotic energy. Without this massification of the energy soup, no particles form, therefore no atoms, no molecules, no "dust", no stars nor [later] planets, no supernovas, no heavy element systems, no complex molecules, no life, no sex, no plants and animals, no "us". So yes, in a crude way, it is the "God Particle" for without it the Universe forever fails in diversification and "interest". They call this theoretical idea, The Higgs Boson.

3). Empirical physicists, the ones who actually do the experiments, have tried left, right, and center to find the Higgs --- occasionally claiming success, but in the end always failing. The theorists then go back to the desks and begin to rationalize why the experimenters didn't find it last time. They then typically set the "Energy Bar" a little higher --- i.e., you guys didn't quite generate enough KASPLASH!!! in your last particle smashup but if you could just get to "this" level you'd probably see the Higgs [briefly]. So more and more monster particle accelerators and monster experiments are jacked up to squeeze a Higgs out of the conflagration, or mini-Big Bang. So, hey! This time they say [again] that they found it. Who knows? Maybe they did.

4). What's the point then? The atheist physicists want the next particle theory synthesis so that they can claim that there is no God. Of course discovering the Higgs does no such thing, but that is how it will be spun, when the scientists stop being scientists and begin acting like biased bull-sh!tters. Certain religious scientists will say: see! That's how God did it! What a neat solution to the Mass problem --- worthy of a deity. Of course the Higgs discovery will prove none of that either. TOE theorists will try to shoehorn this new discovery into some version of a TOE ... and they'll fail. They'll fail because no matter how many particles you toss into a TOE, they will not handle Quantum Mechanics and the "Observation collapses the Wave Function" problem. That last refers to the need for "something" to happen to get "non-determinant [i.e. maybe this/ maybe that 'freedom of possibilities'] chaotic states to "collapse" into something [ex. a massive thing like an electron]. What does it take to make "chaos" collapse? Or in terms discussed here: what makes the Higgs show up and DO anything?

5). The quantum physicists say "observation" of an uncollapsed situation collapses it. Risk-taking physicists say: you'll never get a TOE until you get conscious observership involved alongside your particle force-carriers. The most intelligent man of the 20th century [rated so by his peers over Einstein, for instance], John von Neumann, said it simply: First there was nothing but Chaos and GOD. GOD IS The Prime Observer. GOD observed and Chaos "collapsed" [in our terms, The Higgs formed], and BIG BANG here comes the Universe.

Johnny von Neumann was a Catholic and a Hungarian refugee escaping Hitler to our country. He and his ideas would have been most welcome at Notre Dame, but the Pentagon grabbed him.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The key point to me is that "they" spent billions on a machine when the whole world is getting swallowed up by debt.

Given all the stupid sh!t our Federal government spends money on, basic research is a brilliant investment. There's no market incentive for firms to do this type of work, because it can't be patented, yet it has the potential to improve our quality of life tremendously.

Also, it is extremely unfortunate that the whole education world doesn't even open the door for Intelligent Design.

Let's please save this argument for one of our more politicized threads.
 

BGIF

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... On an ND related note, the University has one of the teams crunching data from the LHC and observed an irregularity in the speed at which neutrinos were moving.

Known on campus as the Rees/Hendrix Uncertainty Principle.


... It is some small suggestion that the speed of light had been breached.

Kelly lights candles in the Grotto nightly in hopes that The Golson Glimmer explodes through the breach with Ricelike frequency.


... However, IMO, that discovery is most likely due to our poor existing data for the mass of neutrinos.

Longo is currently rebuilding mass utilizing The Swarbrick Table which Hiestand will harness to overcome the significant shortcomings seen in the Marotti/Mendoza Line.
 

BobD

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The big problem with the "standard model" of physics is that there is no way to mesh gravity with quantum phenomena. Gravity does show some characteristics in common with the other forces (e.g. it travels at the speed of light), but to this point no "messenger particle" has been observed.

The Higgs Boson is basically a theory of how gravity works and requires the existence of a certain particle which permeates space. If the LHC were to uncover the existence of the Higgs Boson it would be a huge win for mainstream theoretical physics to make such an accurate prediction. Even if the LHC fails to reveal the Higgs Boson, that would merely eliminate certain ranges of characteristics and some future, more powerful, particle accelerator may be able to probe different energy levels.

From what I understand, if the Higgs Boson does not exist, there are no real coherent alternative theories out there. Quantum gravity (which requires the existence of a different particle - the graviton) once held promise but there is no getting around the fact that it predicts things such as (most famously) proton decay which has never been observed.

On an ND related note, the University has one of the teams crunching data from the LHC and observed an irregularity in the speed at which neutrinos were moving. It is some small suggestion that the speed of light had been breached. However, IMO, that discovery is most likely due to our poor existing data for the mass of neutrinos.

Hmmm.... well, this is a particularly tough one since even the theoretical physicists don't know what they're talking about here. But I'll give it a try:

1). Particle physicists have been searching for mechanisms whereby the fundamental forces of the Universe ultimately relate to one another [the forces being Gravity, Electromagnetism, the Weak Nuclear Force which causes certain transmutations and radioactive decay, and the Strong Nuclear Force which binds nuclei together]. They've found the "signatures" of force-carrying particles in the remnants of "atom-smashing" particle accelerator results, and feel that the glimpses of these short-lasting particles indicate that they can be "joined" [in a sense] or melded into "the same" particle at high enough energy densities --- in other words: as you go back to the energy dense state of the very early Universe, all these force-carriers become alike --- or, those forces become the same --- or, we are on the way to understanding a unifying theory of everything that exists [The TOE, Theory of Everything; I'm not kidding you guys, this is the lingo used].

2). The big hang-up has been that the force carrier for Gravity never shows up. So no TOE. To attempt to get Gravity to behave, the theoreticians have modeled a prime target "most wanted subatomic shadowmaster" to be the agent which takes the uber-hot energy soup of the earliest Universe, and forces areas of that chaos to "pause" and mass-ify ... i.e. to become "particles" out of the chaotic energy. Without this massification of the energy soup, no particles form, therefore no atoms, no molecules, no "dust", no stars nor [later] planets, no supernovas, no heavy element systems, no complex molecules, no life, no sex, no plants and animals, no "us". So yes, in a crude way, it is the "God Particle" for without it the Universe forever fails in diversification and "interest". They call this theoretical idea, The Higgs Boson.

3). Empirical physicists, the ones who actually do the experiments, have tried left, right, and center to find the Higgs --- occasionally claiming success, but in the end always failing. The theorists then go back to the desks and begin to rationalize why the experimenters didn't find it last time. They then typically set the "Energy Bar" a little higher --- i.e., you guys didn't quite generate enough KASPLASH!!! in your last particle smashup but if you could just get to "this" level you'd probably see the Higgs [briefly]. So more and more monster particle accelerators and monster experiments are jacked up to squeeze a Higgs out of the conflagration, or mini-Big Bang. So, hey! This time they say [again] that they found it. Who knows? Maybe they did.

4). What's the point then? The atheist physicists want the next particle theory synthesis so that they can claim that there is no God. Of course discovering the Higgs does no such thing, but that is how it will be spun, when the scientists stop being scientists and begin acting like biased bull-sh!tters. Certain religious scientists will say: see! That's how God did it! What a neat solution to the Mass problem --- worthy of a deity. Of course the Higgs discovery will prove none of that either. TOE theorists will try to shoehorn this new discovery into some version of a TOE ... and they'll fail. They'll fail because no matter how many particles you toss into a TOE, they will not handle Quantum Mechanics and the "Observation collapses the Wave Function" problem. That last refers to the need for "something" to happen to get "non-determinant [i.e. maybe this/ maybe that 'freedom of possibilities'] chaotic states to "collapse" into something [ex. a massive thing like an electron]. What does it take to make "chaos" collapse? Or in terms discussed here: what makes the Higgs show up and DO anything?

5). The quantum physicists say "observation" of an uncollapsed situation collapses it. Risk-taking physicists say: you'll never get a TOE until you get conscious observership involved alongside your particle force-carriers. The most intelligent man of the 20th century [rated so by his peers over Einstein, for instance], John von Neumann, said it simply: First there was nothing but Chaos and GOD. GOD IS The Prime Observer. GOD observed and Chaos "collapsed" [in our terms, The Higgs formed], and BIG BANG here comes the Universe.

Johnny von Neumann was a Catholic and a Hungarian refugee escaping Hitler to our country. He and his ideas would have been most welcome at Notre Dame, but the Pentagon grabbed him.

You two gentlemen have forgotten more than I know. What are your personal opinions, do you think they really did it?
 

Old Man Mike

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BobD: I'm not impatient. And no real scientist is. "Science" is never an experiment. Science is the humble tendering of possible good results and the slow-distillation of solid fact from hopeful error by the holism which is the larger scientific community. I will wait and listen to the commentaries [by those who've earned a right to comment by their knowledge, experience, and demonstrated productivity in closely related work]. Those people are smarter on this than I am, and loose speculation by amateurs like myself usually results in a subtraction from the net knowledge of the Universe.

Of course we do that on IE all the time.


As to me and Johnny V, as we sometimes say in West Virginia: "He smarter-un I are".
 
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Cackalacky

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I have to say that the above is one of them most consise and informative summations of what greatness the LHC and its future offspring are worth and I thank Old Man Mike for his time and effort into putting such complex operations into layman's terms.

I would like to add one anectdote to this if it might help those who are not so knowledgeable of the process of science and it relates to Einstein versus Newton (Relativistic physics versus Newtownian physics).

When Newton developed his three laws of motion and the relation of mass and acceleration to produce forces, at the time they worked, because nothing traveled at a speed that was relatively faster than a ball rolling down a hill or falling from a tall building. This was accepted as "truth" and "fact". But as the years went on and things were able to go faster, and the speed of light was determined experimentally and accurately (a fascinating experimental setup by the way), Newtown's laws broke down at higher speeds and as they approached the speed of light and were not accurate at all.

Einstein through his seminal papers discovered that Newtowns laws are true for low speeds however he determined that Newtowns laws neglected the speed of light which is the fastest anything can travel (that we know of). Einsteins factor which is known as the gamma factor established the cosmic speed limit which was confirmed by other scientists afterwards which when applied to Newtonw's equations, held up well at all speeds, low and relatavistic.

gamma.GIF

Einstein just modified Newtown's Laws which are still valid at non-relativistic speeds, but his modification validated Newtown's work on a much wider scale of the universe while adding his own "truth" and "fact" to the existing knowledge body.

The only fundamental particle we are missing is the graviton. This elusive particle has not been discovered and it may be that the Higg's boson or some part of it that give's particles mass may be the what we are looking for. If we find the graviton, there is no telling what greatness lies ahead. It would also take a step forward in linking the the physics of the Standard Model (Large scale objects) and Quantum Mechanics (atomic and sub-atomic scale objects) which currently are equally valid but cannot be reconciled together, as I understand it.

Just my humble thoughts on a massively interesting subject. I love physics and the Universe and the money spent on the LHC is well worth the price of admission as far as I am concerned.
 
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Cackalacky

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4). What's the point then? The atheist physicists want the next particle theory synthesis so that they can claim that there is no God. Of course discovering the Higgs does no such thing, but that is how it will be spun, when the scientists stop being scientists and begin acting like biased bull-sh!tters. Certain religious scientists will say: see! That's how God did it! What a neat solution to the Mass problem --- worthy of a deity. Of course the Higgs discovery will prove none of that either. TOE theorists will try to shoehorn this new discovery into some version of a TOE ... and they'll fail. They'll fail because no matter how many particles you toss into a TOE, they will not handle Quantum Mechanics and the "Observation collapses the Wave Function" problem. That last refers to the need for "something" to happen to get "non-determinant [i.e. maybe this/ maybe that 'freedom of possibilities'] chaotic states to "collapse" into something [ex. a massive thing like an electron]. What does it take to make "chaos" collapse? Or in terms discussed here: what makes the Higgs show up and DO anything?

I kind of have to disagree with you here because even if the higgs boson is found and it unifies the TOE, we still cannot know what happend 1X10^-43 seconds before the big bang according to the standard model and this disproves nothing about the existence or non-existence of god(s). There are other theories with equal creditabilty that say that gravity is the weakest of the fundament forces on the small scale yet the strongest on the largest scales. It is possible gravity permeates through multiple quantum dimensions which we with our feeble 5 sensory perceptions cannot view or detect just like we cannot see in UV or IR, X-ray, gamma, ray, radio etc... but they are still real and are still measureable.

Regardless of one's beliefs, should the TOE of which you seem to describe would negate god cannot be known, however the TOE which describes the begining of the universe can be to a certain point which is what science really is. Establishing fundamental natural facts with a certainity of prboability greater than 95%. Thats the best one can hope for in science and using scientific methods. Additionally, the accumulation of knowledge to increase and more accurately predict natural phenomema is the core principle of science, not to disprove god.

P.S. regarding #5 you are correct, the observation itself causes problems on quantums levels. ALthough we may be able to get around it due to the wave particle duality of light properties. JMHO.
 
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Pops Freshenmeyer

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I kind of have to disagree with you here because even if the higgs boson is found and it unifies the TOE, we still cannot know what happend 1X10^-43 seconds before the big bang according to the standard model and this disproves nothing about the existence or non-existence of god(s). There are other theories with equal creditabilty that say that gravity is the weakest of the fundament forces on the small scale yet the strongest on the largest scales. It is possible gravity permeates through multiple quantum dimensions which we with our feeble 5 sensory perceptions cannot view or detect just like we cannot see in UV or IR, X-ray, gamma, ray, radio etc... but they are still real and are still measureable.

Regardless of one's beliefs, should the TOE of which you seem to describe would negate god cannot be known, however the TOE which describes the origins of the universe can be to a certain point which is what science really is. Establishing fundamental natural facts with a certainity of prboability greater than 95%. Thats the best one can hope for in science and using scientific methods. Additionally, the accumulation of knowledge to increase and more accurately predict natural phenomema is the core principle of science, not to disprove god.

P.S. regarding #5 you are correct, the observation itself causes problems on quantums levels. ALthough we may be able to get around it due to the wave particle duality of light properties. JMHO.

And keep in mind that most physicists have been laboring under the assumption of the Higgs existence for decades and still haven't cracked these problems. If it's found (and the best we will get from this is that something has been found which is consistent with properties predicted for the Higgs) then the real change will be a redirectionof efforts from the alternative gravitational theories.
 
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Cackalacky

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And keep in mind that most physicists have been laboring under the assumption of the Higgs existence for decades and still haven't cracked these problems. If it's found (and the best we will get from this is that something has been found which is consistent with properties predicted for the Higgs) then the real change will be a redirectionof efforts from the alternative gravitational theories.

yes. They have been narrowing down the possible range of mass in electronvolts and have not found it yet. There is still a small range left to test and the results will be most interesting. This is fascinating **** either way it comes out. I want to the know the fundamental particale of gravity so we can start creating hoverboards and ****... :)
 
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Cackalacky

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5). The quantum physicists say "observation" of an uncollapsed situation collapses it. Risk-taking physicists say: you'll never get a TOE until you get conscious observership involved alongside your particle force-carriers. The most intelligent man of the 20th century [rated so by his peers over Einstein, for instance], John von Neumann, said it simply: First there was nothing but Chaos and GOD. GOD IS The Prime Observer. GOD observed and Chaos "collapsed" [in our terms, The Higgs formed], and BIG BANG here comes the Universe.

Johnny von Neumann was a Catholic and a Hungarian refugee escaping Hitler to our country. He and his ideas would have been most welcome at Notre Dame, but the Pentagon grabbed him.

For an explanation on the wave collapse and variable forms of alternate quantum observation theories Read at your own risk....:
Schrödinger's cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Old Man Mike

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Cackalacky: ...uhhh.... I thought my words said that discovery of the Higgs would prove neither hypothesis about God. Apparently my language wasn't as clear as I thought it was, nor you initially gave it credit for.

So, seemingly, I have again succeeded in subtracting from the sum total of knowledge in the Universe.

It is indeed a sad world of chaos and confusion. Quantum Theory and the TOE are almost as mysterious as Notre Dame quarterback decision-making. One thing that we can count on: whoever quarterbacks, his passes will not reach relativistic speeds and thankfully so, as the football would gain so much mass according to Einstein's Lorentz Transformations, that we'd lose Tyler Eifert on the first play. Frankly I'll be satisfied if we can avoid UFOs [Undirected Flying Objects pretending to be forward passes].
 
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Cackalacky

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Cackalacky: ...uhhh.... I thought my words said that discovery of the Higgs would prove neither hypothesis about God. Apparently my language wasn't as clear as I thought it was, nor you initially gave it credit for.

So, seemingly, I have again succeeded in subtracting from the sum total of knowledge in the Universe.

It is indeed a sad world of chaos and confusion. Quantum Theory and the TOE are almost as mysterious as Notre Dame quarterback decision-making. One thing that we can count on: whoever quarterbacks, his passes will not reach relativistic speeds and thankfully so, as the football would gain so much mass according to Einstein's Lorentz Transformations, that we'd lose Tyler Eifert on the first play. Frankly I'll be satisfied if we can avoid UFOs [Undirected Flying Objects pretending to be forward passes].

OK.. I went back and re-read it again and I see what you are getting at. So in essence we agree. I would disagree with the subtracting statement above. I thought the entire post was great and I misunderstood #4. My apologies. It looks like we stated a similar idea in different terms.
 

edgesofsanity

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For those of us who find reading at best difficult, here's a terrific little video (skip to 38 seconds for the cartoon)

<iframe src="http://player.vimeo.com/video/41038445?portrait=0&color=c8b3df" width="500" height="656" frameborder="0" webkitAllowFullScreen mozallowfullscreen allowFullScreen></iframe> <p>
 

DomeX2 eNVy

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In my opinion, proving the existence of Higgs Bosom is critical to the Catholic Church and what they stand for; because without it they can't have Mass.
:yes: :yes: :yes:



Sorry, attempt at nerd humor


I had an interesting discussion last with with my Diocese's Bishop after a committee meeting here about Catholic education. There is a push to get more Catholic teaching into every classroom, and I mentioned that it may be hard in the science and math classes. He very quickly mentioned that it doesn't have to be a constant injection of religion into the classroom, but mentioning Christ's teaching at the appropriate time. I am a huge believer in science an how it has improved the world, so I was concerned about how we deal with those who believe in Intelligent Design. He said to me, that science, evolution, Big Bang, etc. and the Catholic teachings are not in conflict. The Church's position is God created the world . . . then stuff happened including evolution.
I also learned something I sort of knew but he pounded home in how expansive the scientific research currently going on at the Vatican is, and that on Vatican Hill there is the second (if I remember correctly) largest telescope in the world.

As for Intelligent Design, people can have that view if they want, but a few months ago I disproved it to myself with this one example. What intelligent person would create a primary habitat which takes 365.2499999 days to circle it's energy source? What is that, approximately 5 X 73 and change? Shouldn't it be a clean power of 2 or something? If I was asked to design a new world and came back with this as a unit of revolution - I'd be lucky to get a D-.

Again this has nothing to do with the existence of God, just the Biblican's beliefs that ignore science and take us back to a flat world.
 
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Cackalacky

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In my opinion, proving the existence of Higgs Bosom is critical to the Catholic Church and what they stand for; because without it they can't have Mass.
:yes: :yes: :yes:



Sorry, attempt at nerd humor


I had an interesting discussion last with with my Diocese's Bishop after a committee meeting here about Catholic education. There is a push to get more Catholic teaching into every classroom, and I mentioned that it may be hard in the science and math classes. He very quickly mentioned that it doesn't have to be a constant injection of religion into the classroom, but mentioning Christ's teaching at the appropriate time. I am a huge believer in science an how it has improved the world, so I was concerned about how we deal with those who believe in Intelligent Design. He said to me, that science, evolution, Big Bang, etc. and the Catholic teachings are not in conflict. The Church's position is God created the world . . . then stuff happened including evolution.
I also learned something I sort of knew but he pounded home in how expansive the scientific research currently going on at the Vatican is, and that on Vatican Hill there is the second (if I remember correctly) largest telescope in the world.

As for Intelligent Design, people can have that view if they want, but a few months ago I disproved it to myself with this one example. What intelligent person would create a primary habitat which takes 365.2499999 days to circle it's energy source? What is that, approximately 5 X 73 and change? Shouldn't it be a clean power of 2 or something? If I was asked to design a new world and came back with this as a unit of revolution - I'd be lucky to get a D-.

Again this has nothing to do with the existence of God, just the Biblican's beliefs that ignore science and take us back to a flat world.

My problem with those trying to merge religion and science is that you can't merge something that is physically untestable with something that is testable. Faith is susinctly defined as " belief in something in the absence of proof." Science is the exact opposite. If you have faith in your god or gods or lack thereof then you require no proof and therefore no need to devise experiments to prove to yourself that there is no proof.

The Scientific Method is a rigid and logical tool that allows us to know our physical world based on testable hypotheses, data and observation collection, the development of theories (which explain said data and observations and are NOT just wild guesses), and allows us to manipulate those theories into useful and practical applications. Those who attempt to attach something Thor or Odin or Jesus may or may not have said or something you may believe in on faith should be separate from the rigourosity of scientific methodology and publication.
Disclaimer: I am in no way poo-pooing anyone's beliefs by the above. Believe what you want, but ignore the data at your own peril:thx:
 
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ClausentoTate

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My problem with those trying to merge religion and science is that you can't merge something that is physically untestable with something that is testable. Faith is susinctly defined as " belief in something in the absence of proof." Science is the exact opposite. If you have faith in your god or gods or lack thereof then you require no proof and therefore no need to devise experiments to prove to yourself that there is no proof.

They may be opposites by definition but some explanations can still mesh well. Take intelligent design and evolution, God could have put us here but we could still have evolved. Why can't he have made carbon react the way it does in order to form stable life and ultimately us? There are definite laws of the universe, who/what made these laws?

Religion and science can coexist without dismissing one another completely. You still can't prove religion, but you can still have faith. That's why Einstein and other prominent figures believe(d) in God. To know science is to know God. Hell, one of my philosophy professors at ND was a nuclear physicist before she became a professor.

Then again, there is also research that states that there is a part of the brain that creates a faith reaction that is under- or over-developed in people, and is typically most active in your 40's. No idea if this was proven or just an observation, could've sworn it was on NOVA a few years back.

The one thing I just don't understand is how people can read the Old Testament literally, especially Genesis. That's all I'll say about that, don't want to start anything. I do think the Bible has had a very positive influence on the world (save Religious wars, the Inquisition, etc).
 

RDU Irish

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I'll have to come back to this thread and read it all. On the Catholic vs. Science thing - I know more non-Catholic Christians (Baptists in particular) that are more kooky about science than Catholics by a large margin. Thinking UFOs are demons and the possibility of ANY life on other planets is impossible (egocentric much?) are a few examples.

Having just had my third child last week, I have a hard time not believing in God. The fact particals over time have interacted to produce not just our species but all those around us is just too incredible to credit to chance, IMHO.
 
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