Superconferences & Realignment

AvesEvo

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What I don't understand is with the new playoff system and the winner of the conference getting a bye, why would OU and Texas join the SEC, which they are much less likely to win? Is the SEC planning to leave the NCAA and start their own league?
 

Cackalacky2.0

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What I don't understand is with the new playoff system and the winner of the conference getting a bye, why would OU and Texas join the SEC, which they are much less likely to win? Is the SEC planning to leave the NCAA and start their own league?

Seems to me it’s trending to going to be more of a minor league for NFL and may include 25-32 teams that are able to compete against each other. All other colleges can do whatever. I mean we already have Divisions1-3. This would be a taking the the top 25 plus and creating a super league
 

tussin

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No one is excited about the prospect of ND joining a new Ivy League. We all want to have our cake (maintain the student-athlete ideal, not let the tail (NDFB) wag the proverbial dog (UND), etc.) and eat it too (compete for national championships). But it's clear that those two goals are in conflict, and we may have to choose one over the other soon. Either way, it's bad news for the program.

To play Devil's Advocate here, how does this conference realignment talk affect ND's macro-approach to CFB in any way? The school, with its NBC contract, has always been about big money and ND has successfully recruited with the big boys and maintained academic integrity for the past 30+ years.

I get that everyone here values ND's independence (I do as well) but I fail to see how the necessity of joining a major conference would represent a death stroke for ND's program when the likes of Duke, Stanford, and Northwestern have all managed to do the same to varying levels of success.
 

Irishize

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What I don't understand is with the new playoff system and the winner of the conference getting a bye, why would OU and Texas join the SEC, which they are much less likely to win? Is the SEC planning to leave the NCAA and start their own league?

Besides money, the new playoff format doesn’t require teams to be undefeated or only one loss. Hell, we are likely to see a 3-loss SEC team be amongst the 12-team playoff. That could very easily be OU or UT. So, it’s not about winning the SEC as much as it is getting a better shot at one of 12 invites to the big dance.
 

Whiskeyjack

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To play Devil's Advocate here, how does this conference realignment talk affect ND's macro-approach to CFB in any way? The school, with its NBC contract, has always been about big money and ND has successfully recruited with the big boys and maintained academic integrity for the past 30+ years.

I get that everyone here values ND's independence (I do as well) but I fail to see how the necessity of joining a major conference would represent a death stroke for ND's program when the likes of Duke, Stanford, and Northwestern have all managed to do the same to varying levels of success.

Lots of posters here keep talking in hypotheticals when those in charge at ND have consistently made their stance clear on this subject for decades. I'll repost Dennis Dodd's 2015 interview with Swarbrick in its entirety, because there's no ambiguity about what ND intends to do if forced to pick sides:

Jack Swarbrick has this vision. In it, schools that want to pay their athletes and those that want to adhere to a strict educational mission have a decision to make.

In his vision, a players union may not be the worst thing in the world. In it, Congress may have a hand in governing college sports.

The Notre Dame athletic director says there is currently a “cultural divide” in college athletics, one that may make the traditional version of conference realignment look like a game of jacks.

Swarbrick isn’t necessarily advocating upheaval, just defining the future. The legal, moral and collegiate pressures may make it inevitable for a semi-pro division of college athletics to emerge.

“There’s going to be Congressional intervention [in college athletics] or there’s going to be more than one intercollegiate athletic association ….” he said.

“You don’t like these set of rules? Go play in that association.”

A financial windfall in television rights caused the last round of realignment. That eventually pushed Notre Dame to the ACC in everything but football. Swarbrick speaks freely because he still represents one school, one philosophy -- not a conference of merging interests.

Notre Dame has called its shots through the history of major-college athletics.

The Fighting Irish basically jump-started modern conference realignment when they bolted the College Football Association for NBC in 1990.

In Swarbrick’s vision, be assured the Notre Dame’s voice will be heard.

Meanwhile, the NCAA is trying to maintain its relevance under an avalanche of legal challenges and reform. One insider said the amount of legal scrutiny has turned the NCAA into “the new tobacco industry.”
Replacing The NCAA*
This is how two new collegiate athletic associations might look if financial and academic pressures force schools to make a philosophical decision. For these purposes, we're naming them the Federal Collegiate Athletic Association (FCAA) -- similar to the current NCAA -- and College Sports United (CSU) -- for semi-pros. *FBS schools only
FCAACSU
Air ForceAlabama
AkronArizona
Appalachian StateArizona State
Arkansas StateArkansas
ArmyAuburn
Ball StateBaylor
Boston CollegeBoise State
Bowling GreenBYU
BuffaloCincinnati
CalClemson
Central MichiganColorado
FAUColorado State
FIUUConn
Fresno StateEast Carolina
Georgia SouthernFlorida
Georgia StateFlorida State
HawaiiGeorgia
IdahoGeorgia Tech
Kent StateHouston
Louisiana-MonroeIllinois
UMassIndiana
Miami (OH)Iowa State
Middle TennesseeKansas
NavyKansas State
New MexicoKentucky
New Mexico StateLouisiana-Lafayette
North TexasLSU
Northern IllinoisLouisiana Tech
NorthwesternLouisville
Notre DameMarshall
OhioMaryland
Old DominionMemphis
RiceMiami (FL)
San Jose StateMichigan
SMUMichigan State
South AlabamaMinnesota
Southern MissOle Miss
StanfordMississippi State
TempleMissouri
TCUNebraska
Texas-San AntonioNevada
Texas StateNorth Carolina
ToledoNC State
TroyOhio State
TulaneOklahoma
TulsaOklahoma State
VanderbiltOregon
VirginiaOregon State
Wake ForestPenn State
Western MichiganPittsburgh
WyomingPurdue
-Rutgers
-San Diego State
-South Carolina
-Syracuse
-Tennessee
-Texas
-Texas A&M
-Texas Tech
-UCF
-UCLA
-UNLV
-USC
-USF
-Utah
-Utah State
-UTEP
-Virginia Tech
-Washington
-Washingon State
-West Virginia
-Western Kentucky
-Wisconsin
-Iowa
Congressional intervention has been mentioned as a way to turn down the heat. It would provide the NCAA with, say, an anti-trust exemption that could protect the association against some of those legal challenges.

Lately, though, any federal intervention has trended toward reining in NCAA power rather than expanding it.

Forget the economics, the cultural divide in college athletics is getting too big,” Swarbrick said. “Any business association requires commonality of interests to hold together.

“The Oregon and Stanford economic models are similar. Their approach to sports couldn’t be more different.”

Oregon is a state school with a mission to provide a practical education accessible to all. Stanford is a private research institution with a mission is to offer an elite broad-based education.

They both play in the Pac-12. In Swarbrick’s future vision, they would be affiliated with different governing bodies.

There would be schools banding together because they adhere to a traditional collegiate model. For example, the Ivy League doesn’t offer athletic scholarships or participate in the FCS playoff. Still, it is in Division I.

“It’s a decision the Ivy League made a long time ago,” Swarbrick said. “Other schools will say, ‘Hey, we’re comfortable with sort of semi-pro model.’ That’s a perfectly valid choice. But for some of us that’s not a choice we’re prepared to make and we won’t.”

Swarbrick knows his stuff. If all this seems to be a trend toward an Olympic model, there’s a reason. There was a time when the USOC held on to a pure amateur model. Now, no one cares if that dainty figure skater has a six-figure endorsement contract with a major airline.

As a member of the Indiana Sports Commission, Swarbrick -- an attorney by trade -- worked closely with the NFL and USOC in landing events for Indianapolis.

Most athletic budgets are somewhere around the 3-8 percent range” of the total university budget, according to Swarbrick. “The Stanfords of the world are not going to allow that 4 percent business unit [to] take them places they don’t want to be.

Think, then, of two college sports associations. One that includes the likes of Notre Dame, Duke, Stanford, Wake Forest, Cal, Northwestern and TCU. And another that includes most of the major-college land-grant schools.

Recruiting issues? Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany has already laid down a challenge. Similar to 1990, any division that includes Notre Dame is going to get a hefty TV contract.

The current conference media rights deals, worth billions, generally lock in the 10 FBS conferences to the middle of the next decade. The current external pressures could impact those deals way before that time.

Two associations would reflect differing academic approaches. Schools could conceivably still play each other -- as long as the public can digest a $20,000-a-year Isaiah Taylor from Texas bringing it up against Duke’s Tyus Jones.

That vision portends a future when schools won’t necessarily be defined by their conferences but by their core beliefs. College leaders are already being forced to consider outright compensation, a concept that would have been unthinkable a few years ago.

Athletes are already being compensated with the new cost of attendance. If the NCAA loses the O’Bannon case, players could make up to $20,000 in a trust fund payable after they leave school. Several lawsuits against the NCAA and Power Five conferences are calling for the full-on payment of athletes.

Northwestern is still waiting on a National Labor Relations Board ruling that would allow private-school athletes to unionize.

“The irony of all this is, maybe the only way we can get resolution is to ask our athletes to unionize,” Swarbrick said.

That, at least, would bring some sort of cost certainty instead of spending endless hours in court.

“You could have an enforceable collective bargaining,” Swarbrick said.

That’s quite a vision.

Could ND jump into the CFB funding arms race with both feet, blow the top off its AD budget, legitimately compete with 'Bama and Clemson, and maintain its values? Maybe. But Swarbrick and Jenkins don't think so.
 

tussin

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Lots of posters here keep talking in hypotheticals when those in charge at ND have consistently made their stance clear on this subject for decades. I'll repost Dennis Dodd's 2015 interview with Swarbrick in its entirety, because there's no ambiguity about what ND intends to do if forced to pick sides:



Could ND jump into the CFB funding arms race with both feet, blow the top off its AD budget, legitimately compete with 'Bama and Clemson, and maintain its values? Maybe. But Swarbrick and Jenkins don't think so.

Jack Swarbrick has this vision. In it, schools that want to pay their athletes and those that want to adhere to a strict educational mission have a decision to make.

That's a false dilemma though. ND competes with Bama and Clemson right now. ND is both a big money program and has already embraced NIL for its players. I really don't see the issue unless there is a near future where colleges are explicitly paying their players. Even if ND rigidly maintains its cost structure as it relates to football, that's fine so long as the proportions don't change as the numbers get bigger.
 

Whiskeyjack

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That's a false dilemma though. ND competes with Bama and Clemson right now. ND is both a big money program and has already embraced NIL for its players. I really don't see the issue unless there is a near future where colleges are explicitly paying their players. Even if ND rigidly maintains its cost structure as it relates to football, that's fine so long as the proportions don't change as the numbers get bigger.

“Forget the economics, the cultural divide in college athletics is getting too big,” Swarbrick said. “Any business association requires commonality of interests to hold together.

“Other schools will say, ‘Hey, we’re comfortable with sort of semi-pro model.’ That’s a perfectly valid choice. But for some of us that’s not a choice we’re prepared to make and we won’t.”

"The Stanfords of the world are not going to allow that 4 percent business unit [to] take them places they don’t want to be.”

Swarbrick has flat out said:
  1. that the cultural divide between ND and the SEC is too big;
  2. that we're not comfortable with a semi-pro model; and
  3. that we're not willing to let our athletic department take us places we don't want to be (see all the times we've self-sanctioned over the years to maintain control of the football program).
Jenkins has echoed these sentiments many times himself. Maybe they've changed their minds over the last 6 years? Going toe-to-toe with LSU to win Freeman and spending more on recruiting indicate that they may have softened their position somewhat.

But given what they've said on record in recent years, if given the choice between joining the SEC super-conference or forming a new Ivy League, my money would be on the latter. I hope we can find a way to have our cake and eat it too, but I'm not optimistic. Lots of things we've taken for granted in CFB are going to disappear soon, and we're at greater risk than most given our unique position in the ecosystem.
 

Ndaccountant

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Swarbrick has flat out said:
  1. that the cultural divide between ND and the SEC is too big;
  2. that we're not comfortable with a semi-pro model; and
  3. that we're not willing to let our athletic department take us places we don't want to be (see all the times we've self-sanctioned over the years to maintain control of the football program).
Jenkins has echoed these sentiments many times himself. Maybe they've changed their minds over the last 6 years? Going toe-to-toe with LSU to win Freeman and spending more on recruiting indicate that they may have softened their position somewhat.

But given what they've said on record in recent years, if given the choice between joining the SEC super-conference or forming a new Ivy League, my money would be on the latter. I hope we can find a way to have our cake and eat it too, but I'm not optimistic. Lots of things we've taken for granted in CFB are going to disappear soon, and we're at greater risk than most given our unique position in the ecosystem.

It will be interesting and I am with you on what they have said.

One thing not always discussed though is what makes ND today different that U of Chicago or Georgetown? I would say football. All three are excellent schools that provide a world class education. But what makes ND unique isn't being Catholic, there are lots of great Catholic schools. It isn't the education, there are many schools that offer great education. It's the reach the football program enables and how it brings back alumni and their family each and every fall. I truly believe ND cannot maintain it's current offering to the student body without competitive football. ND will slowly evolve into something it doesn't want to be IMO.
 

GATTACA!

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Lots of posters here keep talking in hypotheticals when those in charge at ND have consistently made their stance clear on this subject for decades. I'll repost Dennis Dodd's 2015 interview with Swarbrick in its entirety, because there's no ambiguity about what ND intends to do if forced to pick sides:



Could ND jump into the CFB funding arms race with both feet, blow the top off its AD budget, legitimately compete with 'Bama and Clemson, and maintain its values? Maybe. But Swarbrick and Jenkins don't think so.

Be the change you want to see in the world. Jump in with both feet and show the other schools how to do it with integrity and student athletes first and foremost.
 

Irish#1

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Be the change you want to see in the world. Jump in with both feet and show the other schools how to do it with integrity and student athletes first and foremost.

The other schools already know ND does it with integrity. Most of these are state schools and their financial resources are limited. They're willing to chase the dollar via FB revenue. Some may have integrity, but not at the same level as Notre Dame.
 

Black Irish

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Be the change you want to see in the world. Jump in with both feet and show the other schools how to do it with integrity and student athletes first and foremost.

I agree. While it's been frustrating to see ND get so close to the pinnacle in football only to fall short over the past 30-some years, they are doing a lot of things right keeping the FB program relevant while maintaining academic integrity. I believe that Swarbrick, et al can continue to deftly navigate the evolving CFB landscape in a way that keeps ND independent and able to maintain its football prominence, academic integrity, & religious identity. (Although you may have to stop letting the Jesuits run things on that last count).
 

Irish#1

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An interesting sentence pulled from an article in The Athletic.

Texas isn’t in the SEC yet. (The Big Ten, ACC and Pac 12 are scrambling to make their own offers.)
 

NorthDakota

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The other schools already know ND does it with integrity. Most of these are state schools and their financial resources are limited. They're willing to chase the dollar via FB revenue. Some may have integrity, but not at the same level as Notre Dame.

These big state schools don't really have legitimate financial limitations. Does anyone doubt Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State's ability to raise money?
 

Irish#1

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These big state schools don't really have legitimate financial limitations. Does anyone doubt Texas, Alabama, or Ohio State's ability to raise money?

I think a few of those are exceptions. LSU is in big money trouble right now.
 

RDU Irish

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I think a few of those are exceptions. LSU is in big money trouble right now.

Yeah - I think most schools would take the opportunity to stay away from semi-pro and breath a sigh of relief to step away from the arms race. Really think Kansas and Vandy want to go that route? Or Indiana and Rutgers?
 

tussin

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An interesting sentence pulled from an article in The Athletic.

Texas and Oklahoma going to the B1G is much less offensive to me for some reason. I think a pod division of Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Iowa/Minnesota would be awesome.
 

GowerND11

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Texas and Oklahoma going to the B1G is much less offensive to me for some reason. I think a pod division of Texas, Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Iowa/Minnesota would be awesome.

Well I think the thing that makes this move more appealing is the balance it brings to that conference. I still disagree with it, but it would shift the B1G into something more even that what it currently is.
 

RDU Irish

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Beauty of relegation - lower payout for lower tiers. Using 2019 conference rankings to cull the herd and shuffle the deck:

ACC
A) Clemson, ND, Louisville, UVA, VT, Pitt, BC, Miami
add - UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, Baylor

B) GT, NCST, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, FSU
add: Vanderbilt, WVU, Liberty, Buffalo, App State


B1G
A) OSU, PSU, Wiscy, Minn, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, Mich St
add - K State, Iowa State, OK State, Miami OH, Central Mich

B) Rutgers, Northwestern, Maryland, Purdue, Nebraska, Illinois
add- Kansas, No Illinois, Ball State, Navy, Marshall, Western Michigan


SEC
A) Bama, UGA, LSU, Florida, Auburn, Tenn, TAMU
add - Oklahoma, Texas, La Tech, UAB, FL Atlantic

B) Mizzou, So Carolina, Kentucky, Miss St, Ole Miss, Arkansas
add - SMU, Houston, TCU, T Tech, Western Ky, La Lafayette


Pac12 + Mountain West
A) Oregon, Utah, Oregon State, USC, Cal, Arizona State
add - Boise State, Air Force, San Diego State, Utah State, Hawaii, Nevada, BYU

B) Arizona, Colorado, UCLA, Wash St, Stanford, Washington
add - Wyoming, Co St, New Mexico, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV


Probably add another two teams to each lower division to bring in another 8 teams for 104 total. Leaves two dozen teams out in the cold - tough nuggets to them.
 

Irish#1

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Beauty of relegation - lower payout for lower tiers. Using 2019 conference rankings to cull the herd and shuffle the deck:

ACC
A) Clemson, ND, Louisville, UVA, VT, Pitt, BC, Miami
add - UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, Baylor

B) GT, NCST, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, FSU
add: Vanderbilt, WVU, Liberty, Buffalo, App State


B1G
A) OSU, PSU, Wiscy, Minn, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, Mich St
add - K State, Iowa State, OK State, Miami OH, Central Mich

B) Rutgers, Northwestern, Maryland, Purdue, Nebraska, Illinois
add- Kansas, No Illinois, Ball State, Navy, Marshall, Western Michigan


SEC
A) Bama, UGA, LSU, Florida, Auburn, Tenn, TAMU
add - Oklahoma, Texas, La Tech, UAB, FL Atlantic

B) Mizzou, So Carolina, Kentucky, Miss St, Ole Miss, Arkansas
add - SMU, Houston, TCU, T Tech, Western Ky, La Lafayette


Pac12 + Mountain West
A) Oregon, Utah, Oregon State, USC, Cal, Arizona State
add - Boise State, Air Force, San Diego State, Utah State, Hawaii, Nevada, BYU

B) Arizona, Colorado, UCLA, Wash St, Stanford, Washington
add - Wyoming, Co St, New Mexico, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV


Probably add another two teams to each lower division to bring in another 8 teams for 104 total. Leaves two dozen teams out in the cold - tough nuggets to them.

Understanding this is all hypothetical, it would be a major concession for the B1G to add a school like Ball State or Marshall given they aren't AAU schools. I do know that BSU is tighter than a new skin on a snare drum when it comes to spending money on athletics. Pitt would be a good fit for the B1G.
 

Blazers46

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Beauty of relegation - lower payout for lower tiers. Using 2019 conference rankings to cull the herd and shuffle the deck:

ACC
A) Clemson, ND, Louisville, UVA, VT, Pitt, BC, Miami
add - UCF, Cincinnati, Memphis, Baylor

B) GT, NCST, Syracuse, Wake Forest, Duke, UNC, FSU
add: Vanderbilt, WVU, Liberty, Buffalo, App State


B1G
A) OSU, PSU, Wiscy, Minn, Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, Mich St
add - K State, Iowa State, OK State, Miami OH, Central Mich

B) Rutgers, Northwestern, Maryland, Purdue, Nebraska, Illinois
add- Kansas, No Illinois, Ball State, Navy, Marshall, Western Michigan


SEC
A) Bama, UGA, LSU, Florida, Auburn, Tenn, TAMU
add - Oklahoma, Texas, La Tech, UAB, FL Atlantic

B) Mizzou, So Carolina, Kentucky, Miss St, Ole Miss, Arkansas
add - SMU, Houston, TCU, T Tech, Western Ky, La Lafayette


Pac12 + Mountain West
A) Oregon, Utah, Oregon State, USC, Cal, Arizona State
add - Boise State, Air Force, San Diego State, Utah State, Hawaii, Nevada, BYU

B) Arizona, Colorado, UCLA, Wash St, Stanford, Washington
add - Wyoming, Co St, New Mexico, San Jose State, Fresno State, UNLV


Probably add another two teams to each lower division to bring in another 8 teams for 104 total. Leaves two dozen teams out in the cold - tough nuggets to them.

No New Mexico State? Boo....
 

Sea Turtle

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I can't see how the B1G doesn't add USC, UCLA, Oregon and Washington. They apparently want in.
 

NorthDakota

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Nothing says "college sports conference" like having teams from New York (Jersey) to LA.
 

NorthDakota

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Hmm...North Dakota State AD says we are ready to go if a FBS conference calls. Very unlike our AD to say something like that.
 

drayer54

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Does anyone else think OU and TU are middle-of-the-pack SEC teams in the coming years and barely or don't exceed A&M? They had five combined losses to Iowa State over the same period.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/patsmithradio/status/1420378897062023173?s=20[/TWEET]
 

Bishop2b5

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Does anyone else think OU and TU are middle-of-the-pack SEC teams in the coming years and barely or don't exceed A&M? They had five combined losses to Iowa State over the same period.

Right now, yes... especially Texas. However, they're surely thinking about the long term here. Texas certainly doesn't believe it will be a mid-tier program forever, let alone A&M's whipping boy. OU's been near the top for awhile and they'll have to learn that in the SEC, defense isn't optional, but they'll be OK (no pun intended). Both think they'll be in the Bama, LSU, UGA, A&M, Florida level of the conference in the long run.
 
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