Rioting in St Louis

[phgreek]

I haven't been in this thread for a few days. Forgive me as I'm sure it's been discussed, but why would anyone have an issue with the Rams coming out of the tunnel in the manor they did.

For me...

If this was a hands-up-don't-shoot thing related to Mike Brown, I'm pretty sure folks who believe that entire deal is based on lies ... well they'd resent the hell out of it. Its using lies to manipulate folks...people resent it when you manipulate them, and even moreso when folks use their celebrity to do so...

If folks want to coopt the bullshit that came from Mike Brown's "witnesses" into something that spurs the discourse...fine, but their words need to distance that symbolism from Mike Brown...

You can't get where you are trying to go if you use symbolism based on lies...it just alienates the supposed folks you want to talk to...

 

[kmoose]

St. Louis, Missouri (November 30, 2014) – The St. Louis Police Officers Association is profoundly disappointed with the members of the St. Louis Rams football team who chose to ignore the mountains of evidence released from the St. Louis County Grand Jury this week and engage in a display that police officers around the nation found tasteless, offensive and inflammatory.
"Five members of the Rams entered the field today exhibiting the "hands-up-don't-shoot" pose that has been adopted by protestors who accused Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson of murdering Michael Brown. The gesture has become synonymous with assertions that Michael Brown was innocent of any wrongdoing and attempting to surrender peacefully when Wilson, according to some now-discredited witnesses, gunned him down in cold blood.

I take issue with this statement. I don't associate the gesture with any allegations of wrongdoing. I see it as symbolic of the frustration of the Black Community. I also see it as symbolic of paranoid claims of racism. To me, it's a reminder that we have a lot of work to do, if we want to have good race relations in this country. But I guess the thing with symbols is; a symbol can have a lot of different meanings, depending on your point of view.

 

[BobD]

Yesterday we went out to do some Christmas shopping at a place here in San Francisco known as Union Square. During the holiday season there is an Ice skating rink set up and my wife wanted to skate (I can't because of my bad knees), so I was sitting there enjoying watching her and struck up a conversion with a Chinese man sitting at the same table watching his kids skate. As we were talking he mentioned that he was glad things were peaceful here today because protesters have been around lately. We didn't get into any deep conversation on the topic, but he did say "These people feel oppressed. What they really want is unequal rights to do whatever they want because of race. I wish I could take them to China." I just smiled. When minorities lose the sympathy of other minorities......

 

[T Town Tommy]

I haven't been in this thread for a few days. Forgive me as I'm sure it's been discussed, but why would anyone have an issue with the Rams coming out of the tunnel in the manor they did.

I guess my question would be whether or not the Rams players involved are really doing anything themselves with advancing the issues of today and not simply this case... although their symbolism is directly tied to the case. If they want to use their celebrity status to push issues forward then I am fine with that and encourage them to do so. If they are using the symbolism to advance the lies associated with this particular case, then I have little use for their actions.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

The 5 Rams manner was reinforcing the lie perpetuated in this thread that Brown was a docile, law abiding teenager shot while complying with an officer contrary to the forensics and testimony presented to the Grand Jury.

Here's the text:

"St. Louis, Missouri (November 30, 2014) – The St. Louis Police Officers Association is profoundly disappointed with the members of the St. Louis Rams football team who chose to ignore the mountains of evidence released from the St. Louis County Grand Jury this week and engage in a display that police officers around the nation found tasteless, offensive and inflammatory.
"Five members of the Rams entered the field today exhibiting the "hands-up-don't-shoot" pose that has been adopted by protestors who accused Ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson of murdering Michael Brown. The gesture has become synonymous with assertions that Michael Brown was innocent of any wrongdoing and attempting to surrender peacefully when Wilson, according to some now-discredited witnesses, gunned him down in cold blood.
"SLPOA Business Manager Jeff Roorda said, "now that the evidence is in and Officer Wilson's account has been verified by physical and ballistic evidence as well as eye-witness testimony, which led the grand jury to conclude that no probable cause existed that Wilson engaged in any wrongdoing, it is unthinkable that hometown athletes would so publicly perpetuate a narrative that has been disproven over-and-over again."

Can you please quote the forensics that prove that he did not have his hands up?

Also Jeff Roorda is a dirty cop, fired for lying in police reports. His statement was racist, and I know that racism is dead and only black people are racist, but he doesn't understand why people are upset about this.

 

[BGIF]

I take issue with this statement. I don't associate the gesture with any allegations of wrongdoing. I see it as symbolic of the frustration of the Black Community. I also see it as symbolic of paranoid claims of racism. To me, it's a reminder that we have a lot of work to do, if we want to have good race relations in this country. But I guess the thing with symbols is; a symbol can have a lot of different meanings, depending on your point of view.

"hands-up-don't-shoot"


... is a slogan manufactured by Darion Johnson to cover up Brown's felonious assault of a police officer.

If the real issue is poverty or discrimination than they need to learn the words to "We shall overcome".
I sang them in the 60's when I marched.

Then they need to register, get a I.D. Card so they can't be disenfranchised, and show it proudly when they vote to change officials and policies they don't like.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

The Rams players are worried about their kids being shot by police, and Roorda says "Fuck you I'll give you something to worry about you violent thugs."

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Jeff Roorda will do nothing to help black people feel like they are not being threatened by police with his awful statement.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Can you please quote the forensics that prove that he did not have his hands up?

Also Jeff Roorda is a dirty cop, fired for lying in police reports. His statement was racist, and I know that racism is dead and only black people are racist, but he doesn't understand why people are upset about this.

There were at least four different autopsies performed and three of them concluded that he did not have his hands up in a manner consistent with surrendering. The fourth autopsy was performed by Baden who was employed by the family. And even he stated that the injuries could have come when he was falling forward while being shot iirc.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I am one who doesn't believe his hands were up. I just don't see the problem with the Rams players supporting their beliefs.

 

[T Town Tommy]

"hands-up-don't-shoot"


... is a slogan manufactured by Darion Johnson to cover up Brown's felonious assault of a police officer.

If the real issue is poverty or discrimination than they need to learn the words to "We shall overcome".
I sang them in the 60's when I marched.

Then they need to register, get a I.D. Card so they can' the disenfranchised, and show it proudly when they vote to change officials and policies they don't like.

Sadly living here close to the epicenter of the Civil Rights Movement, the cry of overcoming has been polluted by the constant need to look backwards instead of looking forward. Reading the Montgomery Advertiser is a case study in how something as powerful as the press can manipulate and destroy a segment of our society that needs our help. Spoon feeding southern Democrats have long been as much the real enemy of the African American community as guys running around in white hoods. Look no further than in Montgomery, Al and Canton, Mississippi.

Somehow I think those that walked the E. Pettus Bridge cringe at the thought of what they fought for is being polluted by that very segment of our society that should be building them up.

 

[phgreek]

The kind of change protesters want: Let thugs do whatever they want. It doesn't matter what activities they're involved in, if they're black nobody should approach them.

What they're going to get: Appeasement with less protection in some areas of their cities because nobody wants to deal with this shit.

In the end things will be worse for communities that need help the most.

I know things like more black cops, independent tribunals for cops who shoot, and body cameras are things I've heard on the "wants"...but I agree with the outcome you stated...cops will go into a shell around Ferguson. Wilson will be a cautionary tale for decades, and not in a good way.

 

[kmoose]

"hands-up-don't-shoot"


... is a slogan manufactured by Darion Johnson to cover up Brown's felonious assault of a police officer.

If the real issue is poverty or discrimination than they need to learn the words to "We shall overcome".
I sang them in the 60's when I marched.

Then they need to register, get a I.D. Card so they can' the disenfranchised, and show it proudly when they vote to change officials and policies they don't like.

I'm just saying that making the gesture about allegations of police brutality is not all that different from NJNP seeing racism in EVERY thing that white people do and say. I think it would have helped the St. Louis Police Officers Association to just release a statement more along the following lines:

"The St. Louis Police Officers Association respects the members of the St. Louis Rams who chose to call attention to the issue of the disaffected feelings of the Black Community. We welcome them on board the team that is working to engage the Black Community and reverse these feelings of isolation. As celebrities in both the black and white communities, we look forward to their leadership in this matter and stand ready to support their efforts. We are eager to get started, once they outline for us what role we can play in their plans to address this important social matter."

 

[BGIF]

Sadly living here close to the epicenter of the Civil Rights Movement, the cry of overcoming has been polluted by the constant need to look backwards instead of looking forward. Reading the Montgomery Advertiser is a case study in how something as powerful as the press can manipulate and destroy a segment of our society that needs our help. Spoon feeding southern Democrats have long been as much the real enemy of the African American community as guys running around in white hoods. Look no further than in Montgomery, Al and Canton, Mississippi.

Somehow I think those that walked the E. Pettus Bridge cringe at the thought of what they fought for is being polluted by that very segment of our society that should be building them up.

I had a fraternity brother on the Edmund Pettus Bridge on Bloody Sunday.

 

[T Town Tommy]

I had a fraternity brother on the Edmund Pettus Bridge on Bloody Sunday.

A sad day in our nation's history. Kudos to him for taking a stand and being a part of something that changed this country for the better.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Rioting about police "murdering" an innocent kid and claiming he was executed while trying to surrender, even after forensics and testimony make it clear beyond any reasonable doubt that wasn't the case, causes a LOT more problems than it solves. Claiming police brutality, racism, and unfair treatment when those things aren't true make it harder to correct the problem when it actually is true. It's like the boy who cried wolf all the time. When there actually was a wolf, everyone ignored him because of all the previous false claims.

 

[BGIF]

A sad day in our nation's history. Kudos to him for taking a stand and being a part of something that changed this country for the better.

He was the black photographer that was kicked in the face by a kluxer while he was kneeling to take a picture of his fellow marchers. Another photographer immortalized the moment.

 

[connor_in]

"SLPOA Business Manager Jeff Roorda said, "now that the evidence is in and Officer Wilson's account has been verified by physical and ballistic evidence as well as eye-witness testimony, which led the grand jury to conclude that no probable cause existed that Wilson engaged in any wrongdoing, it is unthinkable that hometown athletes would so publicly perpetuate a narrative that has been disproven over-and-over again."

Can you please quote the forensics that prove that he did not have his hands up?

Also Jeff Roorda is a dirty cop, fired for lying in police reports. His statement was racist, and I know that racism is dead and only black people are racist, but he doesn't understand why people are upset about this.

NJNP, I am not saying that this Roorda isn't racist, I don't know anything about him at all. For all I know he is the Grand Wizard. But please explain how that statement he made was racist.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

I'd say the violent thugs part as I read it as implying the gesture of hands up don't shoot to be a "thug" thing that they said. I think it's deeply coded racism/classism. Violent thugs vs good residents of St. Louis. This issue has become a racial & age divide and Roorda is calling one side, the black/poorer/younger side violent thugs and anyone that agrees with them to be supporting criminals aND whatnot. Also it has a threatening tone that makes me uncomfortable.

I assume I'm the only one in here who finds it racist, but I don't think anyone can deny that it's ridiculous that a man fired for falsifying police reports now leads a union. I would like to know what y'all conservatives think about police unions. I'm generally pro-union except in government cases, even public school teachers I'm uneasy about.

 

[connor_in]

I'd say the violent thugs part as I read it as implying the gesture of hands up don't shoot to be a "thug" thing that they said. I think it's deeply coded racism/classism. Violent thugs vs good residents of St. Louis. This issue has become a racial & age divide and Roorda is calling one side, the black/poorer/younger side violent thugs and anyone that agrees with them to be supporting criminals aND whatnot. Also it has a threatening tone that makes me uncomfortable.

I assume I'm the only one in here who finds it racist, but I don't think anyone can deny that it's ridiculous that a man fired for falsifying police reports now leads a union. I would like to know what y'all conservatives think about police unions. I'm generally pro-union except in government cases, even public school teachers I'm uneasy about.

The only part of the statement I saw was the one quoted with my previous post and didn't see a mention of violent thugs. Apparently, his statement went on beyond that quoted in the post I took his quote from. I will look it up.

 

[kmoose]

I'd say the violent thugs part as I read it as implying the gesture of hands up don't shoot to be a "thug" thing that they said. I think it's deeply coded racism/classism.

It might be a generalization. But not all generalizations are racist.

 

[BobD]

I'd say the violent thugs part as I read it as implying the gesture of hands up don't shoot to be a "thug" thing that they said. I think it's deeply coded racism/classism. Violent thugs vs good residents of St. Louis. This issue has become a racial & age divide and Roorda is calling one side, the black/poorer/younger side violent thugs and anyone that agrees with them to be supporting criminals aND whatnot. Also it has a threatening tone that makes me uncomfortable.

I assume I'm the only one in here who finds it racist, but I don't think anyone can deny that it's ridiculous that a man fired for falsifying police reports now leads a union. I would like to know what y'all conservatives think about police unions. I'm generally pro-union except in government cases, even public school teachers I'm uneasy about.

You know what? I'm sorry you and many others can't see that this was a terrible tragedy, not a racial crime. The grand jury did the decision-making not all the people that have lost businesses and property. The only racial crime has been these riots. I, and I'm sure most of the members here care for people of all races. You keep making comments like this and the other day where you said" how many time have people said I have a black friend". I'm sick of it. You know what I do have black friends, I have friends of all races. The most prejudiced of them all are the black ones. They say things that nobody else is allowed to because somebody might find it offensive. I call them on it and they Quit. You and everyone with a brain knows that the term thug could mean any race, but 90 % of the time it's a black guy you see all dressed up wanting to look like a thug. They are playing to an image....they do it on purpose! Stop being a Jack ass that only has common sense when it's convenient. Im sure you're a nice guy and you seem fairly intelligent. Please stop throwing that damned race card. You know what the black community needs but it requires work, not sniveling or demanding. Work smart not hard is the old saying.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

It might be a generalization. But not all generalizations are racist.

But this is generalizing a group of people and it's usually associated with black people. Thugs is used 99% to describe black people or someone who "dresses like black people."

In the end, the hands up don't shoot is symbolic of the fear in black America of cops. By raising their hands, they were saying, "We're worried about being victims of police brutality." Roorda basically responded by saying "I'll give you something to worry about." Inappropriate for someone representing cops.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

You know what? I'm sorry you and many others can't see that this was a terrible tragedy, not a racial crime. The grand jury did the decision-making not all the people that have lost businesses and property. The only racial crime has been these riots. I, and I'm sure most of the members here care for people of all races. You keep making comments like this and the other day where you said" how many time have people said I have a black friend". I'm sick of it. You know what I do have black friends, I have friends of all races. The most prejudiced of them all are the black ones. They say things that nobody else is allowed to because somebody might find it offensive. I call them on it and they Quit. You and everyone with a brain knows that the term thug could mean any race, but 90 % of the time it's a black guy you see all dressed up wanting to look like a thug. They are playing to an image....they do it on purpose! Stop being a Jack ass that only has common sense when it's convenient. Im sure you're a nice guy and you seem fairly intelligent. Please stop throwing that damned race card. You know what the black community needs but it requires work, not sniveling or demanding. Work smart not hard is the old saying.

Why is the way they dress like "thugs". Thugs should describe actions, not how someone dresses. Unless they are wearing all red or all blue or whatever gang signs, they aren't dressed like "thugs." They are wearing the fashion style where they're from or what they associate with.

 

[GATTACA!]

You know what? I'm sorry you and many others can't see that this was a terrible tragedy, not a racial crime. The grand jury did the decision-making not all the people that have lost businesses and property. The only racial crime has been these riots. I, and I'm sure most of the members here care for people of all races. You keep making comments like this and the other day where you said" how many time have people said I have a black friend". I'm sick of it. You know what I do have black friends, I have friends of all races. The most prejudiced of them all are the black ones. They say things that nobody else is allowed to because somebody might find it offensive. I call them on it and they Quit. You and everyone with a brain knows that the term thug could mean any race, but 90 % of the time it's a black guy you see all dressed up wanting to look like a thug. They are playing to an image....they do it on purpose! Stop being a Jack ass that only has common sense when it's convenient. Im sure you're a nice guy and you seem fairly intelligent. Please stop throwing that damned race card. You know what the black community needs but it requires work, not sniveling or demanding. Work smart not hard is the old saying.

/thread

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[Whiskeyjack]

Why is the way they dress like "thugs". Thugs should describe actions, not how someone dresses. Unless they are wearing all red or all blue or whatever gang signs, they aren't dressed like "thugs." They are wearing the fashion style where they're from or what they associate with.

Totes. And why do people automatically assume a shaved head, facial tattoos, and combat boots are the uniform of a violent racist? Maybe the guy's just a nonconformist who likes to shop at military surplus stores:

Clothing plays an important role in how a man presents himself to the world. If he sartorially associates himself with a violent subculture, most people are going to assume he's violent until proven otherwise. It's a simple matter of self-preservation, and it applies to white skinheads as much as minority gang-bangers.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Why is the way they dress like "thugs". Thugs should describe actions, not how someone dresses. Unless they are wearing all red or all blue or whatever gang signs, they aren't dressed like "thugs." They are wearing the fashion style where they're from or what they associate with.

“The girl says "Oh uh-uh, wait a minute! Wait a minute! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a whore!" Which is true, Gentlemen, that is true. Just because they dress a certain way doesn't mean they are a certain way. Don't even forget it. But ladies, you must understand that is fucking confusing. It just is. Now that would be like me, Dave Chappelle, the comedian, walking down the street in a cop uniform. Somebody might run up on me saying, "Oh, thank God. Officer, help us! Come on. They're over here. Help us!" "Oh-hoh! Just because I'm dressed this way does not make me a police officer!" See what I mean? All right, ladies, fine. You are not a whore. But you are wearing a whore's uniform.”

How you dress is how you present yourself to the world, and it says a lot about how you see yourself and want the world to see you.

 

[gkIrish]

I was born, raised, and currently live in the "Most Dangerous City in America" according to various polls. Here's one for example:

The 10 Most Dangerous Cities in America

Short version of NY Times article about our violence: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/12/nyregion/12newburgh.html?pagewanted=all

In sum, I have quite a bit of first-hand experience with gang violence, race relations, and police-civilian relations.

My sole contribution to this thread (of which I've read every post) is this: R E L A X. Some of you don't have any idea what your talking about. Others don't have an objective bone in their body. The passion exhibited in this thread proves one thing---it's impossible to change someone's beliefs on serious issues (formed over decades) on an Internet message board. It's not worth the time. So in my opinion, move on!

I sincerely hope this thread is dead in the next 24 hours.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Where does it cross the line though? I mentioned that dressing like a blood or a crip is clearly and rightly going to get you viewed like a blood or a crip, just like how people with swastikas are viewed as Aryan Nation. But like when Geraldo Rivera said Trayvon Martin was dressed like a thug when he was wearing a hoodie. Why is sagging or baggy pants considered "thug"? I'm sure that a lot of street criminals are wearing it, but the fashion didn't make them do it nor should it associate it. When a CEO steals from a company and he always wears a suit, suits shouldn't be associated with that crime.

Here's a pretty good article from NPR on this general topic: Sagging Pants And The Long History Of 'Dangerous' Street Fashion : Code Switch : NPR

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Where does it cross the line though? I mentioned that dressing like a blood or a crip is clearly and rightly going to get you viewed like a blood or a crip, just like how people with swastikas are viewed as Aryan Nation. But like when Geraldo Rivera said Trayvon Martin was dressed like a thug when he was wearing a hoodie. Why is sagging or baggy pants considered "thug"? I'm sure that a lot of street criminals are wearing it, but the fashion didn't make them do it nor should it associate it. When a CEO steals from a company and he always wears a suit, suits shouldn't be associated with that crime.

Here's a pretty good article from NPR on this general topic: Sagging Pants And The Long History Of 'Dangerous' Street Fashion : Code Switch : NPR

What exactly does a blood or crip dress like? I've met many and I can't tell the difference by the clothes they wear. Personally, I use the word thug to describe actions not dress code but I live in a melting pot