Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Polish Leppy 22

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I didn't make that statement. I called baloney on pointing to "socialism" as the catalyst for the woes of the countries he listed, when in my opinion what is consistent with all those countries is corruption and cronyism. In fact those are the big issues with most "screwed up" countries regardless of their preferred economic model and it is often driven by a concentration of wealth and the power associated with that. That's the path the US is on right now and is the biggest issue facing our political system not the fake boogeyman of "socialism".

To your statement, the answer to ending the crony US government is 100% public funding of all political campaigns in my opinion. Socializing healthcare, childcare and education would do a world of good in this country in my opinion as well.

So if we as a nation completely root out what you deem to be "corruption and cronyism", we'll all be lucky enough to live as well as the Swedes do? lol

Greece is bankrupt because of the welfare state they created for themselves, not "corruption and cronyism." Their unemployment rate hasn't sky rocketed because of "the rich." Shelves at the grocery stores aren't empty because of bad luck/ hard times.

Hell, Jim Cramer on CNBC yesterday said Greece is what the US will look like in 2035. If the socialist paradise is what you desire so much, by all means book a one way flight. Let the rest of us work our tails off and continue to live in the most prosperous city man has known. Perfect? No. Better than the rest? Yes.
 

Wild Bill

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I hear ya, but I think one would have the argument that the city, state, etc has no right to their personal assets without representation. They have no lien right to the personal property, they have no collateral interest in the transaction. If one chooses not to participate in their service (ie property taxes), then I fundamentally do not believe a municipality has any legal right to their assets. They would certainly be within their rights to seek damages for amounts they feel are due to them, but the tie to their personal property is strange to me. Every other debtor must take lien, why are municipalities allowed to bypass that?

For instance, use a different piece of collateral. Say a county decided that they want to tax dogs. If you own a dog, you have to pay $1,000 a year for that right. If you did not comply, they do not have the right to come take your dog and euthanize it. That is essentially what has become common place in real estate law.

The justification is that the scheme was never designed to do equity, it was designed to ensure collection of tax revenues that municipalities rely upon for the "greater good". You're not alone, it strikes many as harsh.

I suspect the system is designed this way to force mortgage companies into payment of delinquent taxes. If the county was only allowed a jr lien, the mortgage companies would never pay delinquent taxes. They would simply wait until their mortgage was paid and move along with their day. The current system forces the mortgage company into a decision - pay the delinquent taxes or lose our entire lien. The shitty part, like you said, is that these same harsh rules apply to homeowners who worked their entire lives for their property.

The municipalities argue that they are not attaching to property, auctioning the property or transferring title (taking your dog). They are merely shifting the county's lien for the taxes to a private tax purchaser. The argument has some validity given the municipalities aren't auctioning the property for market value and the tax purchaser does not have the right to immediately enforce their lien. The homeowner has time to repay. They can explain it any which way they want, but in the end, someone losing a paid in full house is brutal.

Honestly, I see the ridiculousness of the system but it works to collect money. I can't think of a better way that's less harsh.
 

pkt77242

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So if we as a nation completely root out what you deem to be "corruption and cronyism", we'll all be lucky enough to live as well as the Swedes do? lol

Greece is bankrupt because of the welfare state they created for themselves, not "corruption and cronyism." Their unemployment rate hasn't sky rocketed because of "the rich." Shelves at the grocery stores aren't empty because of bad luck/ hard times.

Hell, Jim Cramer on CNBC yesterday said Greece is what the US will look like in 2035. If the socialist paradise is what you desire so much, by all means book a one way flight. Let the rest of us work our tails off and continue to live in the most prosperous city man has known. Perfect? No. Better than the rest? Yes.

You do realize that somewhere between 25-30% of Greece's economy is off the books right? It is because such a large part of the economy is in the shadows that they are in trouble. If they had been receiving taxes on that large portion of the exonomy for the last 20+ years they wouldn't be in this dire predicament.
 

BGIF

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You do realize that somewhere between 25-30% of Greece's economy is off the books right? It is because such a large part of the economy is in the shadows that they are in trouble. If they had been receiving taxes on that large portion of the exonomy for the last 20+ years they wouldn't be in this dire predicament.


Must be those damn one percenters, right?


You do realize 12%, $2 trillion, of U.S. Economy is off the books?


Per NPR:
More than half of all employed people worldwide work off the books. And that number is expected to climb over the next decade.

"Estimates are that the informal economy around the world is [worth] about $10 trillion a year," says journalist Robert Neuwirth. "That's an astounding figure because what it means, basically, is that if the informal economy was combined in one country, it would be the second-largest economy on Earth, rivaling the United States economy."

The 'Informal Economy' Driving World Business : NPR
 

Whiskeyjack

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First of all, I understand that you are coming from the Catholic Doctrine and simply explaining the concepts as they are detailed. But my broader point is that marriage is not a Christian act alone. Buddists, Muslims, Athiests, etc all get married. I think that is where the Catholic Doctrine disconnects with the general population. Where they see it as a function of religious institution, the majority of America see it as an act of love and a contractual obligation to their union.

I wouldn't say that's accurate. Catholics would argue that marriage is a pre-political institution which is a reflection of its importance in the Natural Law. Until the day before yesterday, virtually every culture in recorded history recognized marriage as a conjugal relationship between a man and a woman. Christ added the requirements of monogamy and permanence, which accounts for most of the important differences between Christian marriage and other forms. In contrast, modern marriage is neither conjugal nor permanent, and it's unlikely to be monogamous for much longer either.

See my point above. I suppose that is a disconnect where non-Catholics see it as something entirely different than an ticket to procreate.

Absolutely. But the disconnect goes far deeper than the Magisterium stubbornly clinging to medieval social constructs in the face of an "evolving" institution. It's a reflection of radically incompatible beliefs about the natural of reality itself.

I think this is why you will see more people continually move away from the church. Also a relevant point to the Libertarian view of why government should stay out of the "marriage business". I agree with that point, but if the church denounces one's right to union, what other choice do people have to that contract and rights therein?

If we're talking about winning people over to the Church's position, I agree completely that arid canonical arguments won't convince anyone. What the modern West needs is re-conversion, and that will only happen when Western Christians burnish our own practices until their radiance dazzles the pagan eye once again (as they did in the early years of the Church). But the Western Church cannot do that while it is at war with itself. It has to recognize secular liberalism as a hostile religion, condemn it as heresy, and ruthlessly purge it from within its own institutions. There is no middle ground. One cannot be both a Christian and a modernist.

My comment didn't mean to infer the value of said life, but rather a couple's desire to not put a child through that pain. Say they married with the intent of children, found that they would be giving a child a painful existence, and are choosing not to do so. They cannot divorce in this case either, so what choice do they have but to live in sin?

If they haven't consummated their marriage yet, they'd have probable grounds for an annulment. Similarly, if their union hasn't yet produced children, they'd still likely be granted one. Marriage is the full, free, and total gift of self to another person for life, which includes the bodily gift of self through intercourse. If they cannot do that in good conscience, then they should be free to seek that Good elsewhere.

I think this is where the church struggles with modern ideology. I believe it is a difficult task to convince people that they are unfit for love simply because they do not desire children. See... the modern concept of marriage is rooted in love and rights, not the ability to procreate. The more the church stresses that fundamental difference, the more they will pull away from the modern ideals.

No one is "unfit for love"; conversely, that's the ultimate purpose of every human life. But marriage, as a Christian sacrament, is fit only for couples capable of the conjugal act and open to the possibility of new life. And that's not everyone. Just as Holy Orders aren't for everyone. That offends the egalitarian sensibilities of modern liberals, mostly because their worldview prevents them from recognizing any sort of Natural Law at work in nature or their own bodies.

Regardless, that is where we are in today's world. Marriage has a far wider breadth in today's society outside of children. It's definitely something the church needs to address, but in what manner is outside of my pay grade. A difficult issue that they should have addressed far before the meaning of the sacrament changed to more of a legal/social event.

How should it "be addressed"? Matthew 19:3-6 establishes Christian marriage as conjugal, monogamous and permanent, straight from Jesus' lips. There's no way to reconcile the modern and Christian concepts of marriage without eviscerating the latter.

It's worth noting that every Christian sect that has liberalized its doctrine on sexuality and marriage has utterly collapsed. "Liberal" Christianity is well on its way to being completely extinct within a generation or two. So appeals to change doctrine in the interest of "attracting young people" or "remaining relevant" are basically just invitations to suicide.

I combined these two points because my comment addresses both. On some level, the "natural act" of child bearing is a thing of the past. Even if one abstained from prenatal vitamins, hormone therapy, ovulation medication or IVF. The act is still predominantly science-driven, even by practicing Catholics. They still will use ovulation calendars, they still will utilize technological advances to create a healthy baby. It's not a simple act of God that creates the child through natural means, imo. It's all a drawn out medical procedure at this point.

The Catholic ideal doesn't involve a Luddite rejection of technology per se. We're meant to "have life and have it in abundance." But we're also called to humility and reverence before the world, which isn't consonant with the modern Baconian obsession with subjugating nature "for the relief of man's estate" (which is also bringing on apocalypse via global warming, but that's a different topic). That which is useful is not necessarily good.

While I by no means am trying to discredit the life of someone with disabilities, I understand why someone wouldn't want to create one if they knew it was probable. Most Americans agree with the value of life, regardless of disability. This isn't an argument of culling "in utero", it's a decision made pre "in utero". Choosing to abstain isn't culling anything, as it must exist to be culled. But I think the church will have quite a difficult task convincing modern society that their marriage is not valid if they don't purposely have a child that they knowingly will be born with disability or disease. I don't believe that the general public sees that as "culling" but rather moral obligation.

That's a hard (and extremely niche) case. They could choose to adopt, or have their marriage annulled and find another spouse with whom they can procreate in good conscience.
 
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Bluto

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So if we as a nation completely root out what you deem to be "corruption and cronyism", we'll all be lucky enough to live as well as the Swedes do? lol

Greece is bankrupt because of the welfare state they created for themselves, not "corruption and cronyism." Their unemployment rate hasn't sky rocketed because of "the rich." Shelves at the grocery stores aren't empty because of bad luck/ hard times.

Hell, Jim Cramer on CNBC yesterday said Greece is what the US will look like in 2035. If the socialist paradise is what you desire so much, by all means book a one way flight. Let the rest of us work our tails off and continue to live in the most prosperous city man has known. Perfect? No. Better than the rest? Yes.

If we rooted out corruption and cronysim the US would definately do a better job of living up to the ideals you espouse (freedom, opportunity...).

Greece is broke because they instituted social programs then in large part due to corruption and cronysim didn't pay for them. You would be pretty naive to think that the "wealthy" didn't drive and grease the wheels of that process.

Lastly if a completely deregulated paradise is what you desire you should move to Mexico. I hear Ciudad Juarez is lovely this time of year. See how easy that was.
 

Bluto

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...seems like the desire has changed from guaranteed opportunity to pursue quality of life you desire to quality of life guarantees...life, liberty, pursuit of happiness...we seem to heap alot on government these days to achieve those...

I think we can take care of a few things regarding corruption and lobbyists before we embrace Bernie....JMHO.

Nope, guaranteed opportunity is what all those things I've listed would imply. Being hungry, poorly educated and or sick makes it rather difficult to be in a position to take advantage of an "opportunity". Why not remove those road blocks? So Parris Hilton can buy another handbag?

I'm all ears in terms of removing corruption and lobbyists but unfortunately the only people on the right who seem to have any ideas are former GOP politicians such as Bob Ney who went to jail for being involved in illegal schemes involving money and lobbying.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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If we rooted out corruption and cronysim the US would definately do a better job of living up to the ideals you espouse (freedom, opportunity...).

Greece is broke because they instituted social programs then in large part due to corruption and cronysim didn't pay for them. You would be pretty naive to think that the "wealthy" didn't drive and grease the wheels of that process.

Lastly if a completely deregulated paradise is what you desire you should move to Mexico. I hear Ciudad Juarez is lovely this time of year. See how easy that was.

So Greece is in this predicament because of corruption and cronyism, not spending far more than they were bringing in and ran out of other people's money?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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If we rooted out corruption and cronysim the US would definately do a better job of living up to the ideals you espouse (freedom, opportunity...).

Greece is broke because they instituted social programs then in large part due to corruption and cronysim didn't pay for them. You would be pretty naive to think that the "wealthy" didn't drive and grease the wheels of that process.

Lastly if a completely deregulated paradise is what you desire you should move to Mexico. I hear Ciudad Juarez is lovely this time of year. See how easy that was.

Let's assume cronyism and corruption are the reasons why Greece is bankrupt (which is false, but let's play). If we were to follow in Greece's path of the gracious welfare state, what would you propose we put in place in the US to prevent the same cronyism and corruption?
 

IrishJayhawk

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So if we as a nation completely root out what you deem to be "corruption and cronyism", we'll all be lucky enough to live as well as the Swedes do? lol

Greece is bankrupt because of the welfare state they created for themselves, not "corruption and cronyism." Their unemployment rate hasn't sky rocketed because of "the rich." Shelves at the grocery stores aren't empty because of bad luck/ hard times.

Hell, Jim Cramer on CNBC yesterday said Greece is what the US will look like in 2035. If the socialist paradise is what you desire so much, by all means book a one way flight. Let the rest of us work our tails off and continue to live in the most prosperous city man has known. Perfect? No. Better than the rest? Yes.

That clinches it. We're fine.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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"But I think what’s happened in recent years is the Republicans have spent a lot of time trying to cut back on government services. They’re not operating as effectively as they should, and people get angry"

I think he's pointing the finger at Republicans who get a hard on at cutting government regardless of its merit. Look no further than Kansas and Louisiana. But you see it even here in Ohio with Kasich, a guy I would support. He's slashed funding left and right, to the detriment of local governments. Government doesn't magically become more efficient when you cut the budget. That's how I took his point, that the GOP is so focused on cutting that they ignore governing.

If I listen to what Bernie is saying...and don't apply any labels, or get outraged at "socialist", he is still full of shit.

I think most of what he says on the campaign trail is impossible given Congress, so he's full of shit in that regard.


Is it safe to say his party could have chosen to "fix" government inefficiency regardless of Republican support? When they had the political power they did not have the will or capability to fix government inefficiency...but as always they had the "dream" to add to it. What republicans did or did not do is a Red Herring...

Well, he's not a Democrat.

Real change that is meaningful comes in the form of someone willing to totally rethink "government" function.

Well then there are only two candidates, Paul and Sanders. Give me either over the rest.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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So if we as a nation completely root out what you deem to be "corruption and cronyism", we'll all be lucky enough to live as well as the Swedes do? lol

How about we just put the middle class first again so we can afford to go to college, get jobs that pay well, use our massive wealth to secure health care for people, etc. It's not rocket science. The rest of the developed world is moving past us as we are enamored with tickledown "well if we just let our corporations have everything they want then we'll be better off!" malarkey.

Greece is bankrupt because of the welfare state they created for themselves, not "corruption and cronyism."

A bit more complicated than that.

Hell, Jim Cramer on CNBC yesterday said Greece is what the US will look like in 2035.

Ever heard of a scare tactic? Or a pundit talking out of his ass?

If the socialist paradise is what you desire so much, by all means book a one way flight.

So, so stupid.

Let the rest of us work our tails off and continue to live in the most prosperous city man has known. Perfect? No. Better than the rest? Yes.

More like "let the rest of us work our tails off for a smaller piece of the pie while the oligarchy on Long Island continues to gobble up a larger and larger share of the wealth. Let us continue to be nickled and dimed and get less in return. Let us be so blinded by patriotism that we don't see other countries beating us on social standards. We're #1! We're #1!"
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Let's assume cronyism and corruption are the reasons why Greece is bankrupt (which is false, but let's play). If we were to follow in Greece's path of the gracious welfare state, what would you propose we put in place in the US to prevent the same cronyism and corruption?

That's just it. No one is looking around going "those policies Greece has are A+, we should look into them!"

We can look at successful countries and learn from them though. It's that simple.

I don't agree with Sanders on trying to be Scandinavia. But you're kidding yourself if you say we can't learn a thing or two from other developed nations. Tickledown isn't leading the pack when it comes to empowering the middle class.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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It's so weird to me how openly conservatives criticize the government and cannot propose a solution that isn't "get rid of it."

I think I've said this before, but conservatives remind me of those old people who don't know you can update your computer and then get frustrated when it slows down or fails periodically, and instead of browsing around for better programs and updates they yell about wanting to pull the plug and walk out of the room.

And the thing is, you can uninstall useless programs. People are overwhelmingly all for that. But the money behind the parties just wants to use that political ammunition to delete the programs it wants to delate and make you run on their shitty half-baked model.
 
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phgreek

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Nope, guaranteed opportunity is what all those things I've listed would imply. Being hungry, poorly educated and or sick makes it rather difficult to be in a position to take advantage of an "opportunity". Why not remove those road blocks? So Parris Hilton can buy another handbag?

I'm all ears in terms of removing corruption and lobbyists but unfortunately the only people on the right who seem to have any ideas are former GOP politicians such as Bob Ney who went to jail for being involved in illegal schemes involving money and lobbying.

Your use of opportunity is very small. Not at all in line with the theme of opportunity as relates to this nation. Any combination of brains, brawn, guile, and sheer will COULD earn you great rewards w/o interference from government and/or government encumbrances.

We've all accepted some social welfare encumbrances as the measure of progress, but make no mistake...No one promised everyone the same starting spot...or even the same track. The system isn't fair, or easy...but it has proven to be quite powerful.

That many of you feel uncomfortable with the realities of our system, and seek something else is fine, but opportunity as relates to this nation was never intended to be so small as to speak to the current state of any or even many given man/woman....
 

phgreek

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I think he's pointing the finger at Republicans who get a hard on at cutting government regardless of its merit. Look no further than Kansas and Louisiana. But you see it even here in Ohio with Kasich, a guy I would support. He's slashed funding left and right, to the detriment of local governments. Government doesn't magically become more efficient when you cut the budget. That's how I took his point, that the GOP is so focused on cutting that they ignore governing.



I think most of what he says on the campaign trail is impossible given Congress, so he's full of shit in that regard.




Well, he's not a Democrat.



Well then there are only two candidates, Paul and Sanders. Give me either over the rest.


who the hell does he caucus with, and vote with, and whose nomination is he seeking for the Presidency? BS distinction...Drink less.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The rest of the developed world is moving past us as we are enamored with tickledown "well if we just let our corporations have everything they want then we'll be better off!" malarkey.

Tickledown isn't leading the pack when it comes to empowering the middle class.

"Tickledown" sounds way more fun than any of Art Laffer's bullshit.
 

D-BOE34

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I like 'Merica!

Until we can find a person that isn't scared to go against the grain, we are fucked. I watch my money and make sure I can always pass a drug test. We invest at home in people we shouldn't and we lose off land for those that we shouldn't. I don;t have an answer but I will work my ass off for my money and I will invest wisely. If that means under my mattress, so be it!

Like I said, I can't side with one or the other because there is not one person that can make this country whole in 8 years and meet all the needs. That is my take. What can make it right? Fuck if I know! You're all more smart than I but I know I need to protect myself as much as I can until something changes. That means low risk, my reward.
 

pkt77242

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The "trickle down theory" is dead wrong - Jun. 15, 2015

In fact, researchers found that when the top earners in society make more money, it actually slows down economic growth. On the other hand, when poorer people earn more, society as a whole benefits.

The researchers calculated that when the richest 20% of society increase their income by one percentage point, the annual rate of growth shrinks by nearly 0.1% within five years.

This shows that "the benefits do not trickle down," the researchers wrote in their report, which analyzed over 150 countries.

By contrast, when the lowest 20% of earners see their income grow by one percentage point, the rate of growth increases by nearly 0.4% over the same period.
 

magogian

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Stupid article is stupid.

1. "Trickle down theory" isn't a real economic theory advocated by any significant group. It is little more than a pejorative strawman.

2. The summary shows that this study is worthless: "In fact, researchers found that when the top earners in society make more money, it actually slows down economic growth. On the other hand, when poorer people earn more, society as a whole benefits."

Here's why. This study is meaningless unless you know what caused the top earners to make more money compared to when the bottom earners earned more. For example, inequality in the US has accerated during the Obama administration despite Obama's efforts to target inequality (increased taxes on the rich, etc.). In short, the attempt to make society "more equal" correlates with greater inequality.

In other periods in the US and for other countries, when income tax rates (across all brackets) are reduced and taxes on capital are reduced (often benefitting the rich more than the poor), you often (albeit not always) see lessening inequality as a result of increased economic growth.

3. Income inequality isn't what causes poor economic growth. Rather, severe income inequality is mainly a symptom of bad economic fundamentals, e.g., lack of private property rights and rule of law, authoritarian regimes, oligarchical control of the economy, corrupt over regulated states that prevent small and mid-sized players from succeeding (those without the political connections or money to get their licenses, etc.) and so forth.
 

BGIF

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Yeah I've been drinking. Sorry for the five posts in a row.

I assumed it must be the anniversary of the National Defense Highway System that had you in your cups.

Despite your numerous rants at Eisenhower causing the demise of metropolitan America two pieces of legislation by FDR in 1938 and 1944, The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1938 And The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944, while Ike was busy running a world war, set the groundwork for the Interstate Highway System. Eventually the plan meant to connect regions of the country together, much to the chagrin of the railroads, was corrupted by politicians, regional and city planners, and developers eager to create jobs in highways, roads, housing, and industry in their backyard furthering their careers and bank accounts.
 
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EddytoNow

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Bottom line. If the bottom 90% is making only enough to pay their monthly expenses and they have no discretionary income, they aren't buying. If they aren't buying, the economy is going nowhere. Henry Ford had the right idea. If you want to sell your product to everyone, you better pay your workers enough so they can afford to buy the product they make.
 
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