Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

EddytoNow

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How soon we forget that this Supreme Court is stacked with conservatives. When Justice Roberts joined the conservative majority in ruling that a corporation was a person (a ruling that opened up the floodgates for buying elections), I didn't hear any whining from conservatives. Now that he has joined the liberal and moderate justices in upholding yet another aspect of the Affordable Care Act, the conservatives are out in full force asking how a conservative could rule this way.

As a liberal, I wasn't thrilled when Justice Roberts was nominated and confirmed, and I haven't agreed with many of his rulings. However, I must admit he has listened to arguments with an open mind that is atypical for the current crop of Supreme Court Justices.

Imagine that, a Supreme Court Justice with an open mind. Some of the other justices could learn from his example. Are you listening Alito and Thomas?
 

Emcee77

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How soon we forget that this Supreme Court is stacked with conservatives. When Justice Roberts joined the conservative majority in ruling that a corporation was a person (a ruling that opened up the floodgates for buying elections), I didn't hear any whining from conservatives. Now that he has joined the liberal and moderate justices in upholding yet another aspect of the Affordable Care Act, the conservatives are out in full force asking how a conservative could rule this way.

As a liberal, I wasn't thrilled when Justice Roberts was nominated and confirmed, and I haven't agreed with many of his rulings. However, I must admit he has listened to arguments with an open mind that is atypical for the current crop of Supreme Court Justices.

Imagine that, a Supreme Court Justice with an open mind. Some of the other justices could learn from his example. Are you listening Alito and Thomas?

Yeah, I give him a lot of credit. He really, really cares about the credibility of the Court and he is determined to do everything he can to prevent it from becoming an ideological or political institution. I wish Scalia cared that much about it.
 

wizards8507

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When Justice Roberts joined the conservative majority in ruling that a corporation was a person (a ruling that opened up the floodgates for buying elections)...
No. A corporation is PEOPLE, not A PERSON. Like the Note Dame football team is PEOPLE and your family are PEOPLE.

Are you really that naive that you think buying elections started with Citizens United?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.
 

GoIrish41

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No. A corporation is PEOPLE, not A PERSON. Like the Note Dame football team is PEOPLE and your family are PEOPLE.

Are you really that naive that you think buying elections started with Citizens United?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

Yeah. It just made it easier.
 

phgreek

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I think he was talking about context and the spirit of the law.

It was a convenient interpretation...

based on what we know of common language and the Gruber insights, EVERYONE KNOWS this is gymnastics...not something the court should be doing...Justice Roberts has lacked character and the will to keep the supreme court in its box.
 

IrishJayhawk

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It was a convenient interpretation...

based on what we know of common language and the Gruber insights, EVERYONE KNOWS this is gymnastics...not something the court should be doing...Justice Roberts has lacked character and the will to keep the supreme court in its box.

That's an interesting thought. I've generally thought exactly the opposite. To read the law, the debate surrounding the law, and the implementation of the law as including subsidies ONLY through the state exchanges takes a huge and disingenuous leap.

As Toobin writes in the article from above:
Shortly after the A.C.A. passed, in 2010, a group of conservative lawyers met at a conference in Washington, D.C., sponsored by the American Enterprise Institute, and scoured the nine-hundred-page text of the law, looking for grist for possible lawsuits. Michael Greve, a board member of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, a libertarian outfit funded by, among others, the Koch brothers, said, of the law, “This bastard has to be killed as a matter of political hygiene. I do not care how this is done, whether it’s dismembered, whether we drive a stake through its heart, whether we tar and feather it and drive it out of town, whether we strangle it.”

They wanted to kill it on political grounds and were looking for ways to do so.

EDIT:
He wrote a follow-up article today.

Doom for a Cynical Assault on Obamacare - The New Yorker

Notably—crucially—not one member of Congress who debated the law suggested that subsidies were to be denied to purchasers on the federal exchange. Still, these lawyers recruited plaintiffs and argued that more than six million people who bought insurance on the federal exchange should be denied their subsidies.

Maybe my favorite line:
As Roberts wrote, “The statutory scheme compels us to reject [the plaintiffs’] interpretation because it would destabilize the individual insurance market in any State with a Federal Exchange, and likely create the very ‘death spirals’ that Congress designed the Act to avoid.” Recognition of this obvious fact does not make Roberts a liberal; it makes him a judge.
 
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Emcee77

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GoIrish41

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It was a convenient interpretation...

based on what we know of common language and the Gruber insights, EVERYONE KNOWS this is gymnastics...not something the court should be doing...Justice Roberts has lacked character and the will to keep the supreme court in its box.

I do not think it any different than ignoring the militia language in the 2nd amendment and interpreting it to mean firearms for personal use.
 

EddytoNow

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No. A corporation is PEOPLE, not A PERSON. Like the Note Dame football team is PEOPLE and your family are PEOPLE.

Are you really that naive that you think buying elections started with Citizens United?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 4 using Tapatalk.

I didn't say buying elections started with Citizens United. I said the floodgates opened allowing corporations (really just the wealthy decision makers for the corporation, not the investors or employees) to buy elections. And do you really believe that the founders of our country intended to give those with the most money the right to "more" free speech than the individual citizen? They had no idea that the Koch Brothers and others would use their wealth to buy more "free speech". Isn't it ironic that "free" speech can now be purchased by the highest bidder? Our founders lived in a time when the media was the watchdog that exposed corruption in the government. Now the media (and access to millions of listeners) is for sale to the highest bidder. The Supreme Court got that one wrong.

Fortunately, the American people saw through the fog in the 2012 presidential election. The hundreds of millions of corporate dollars that flooded into Mitt Romeny's coffers ended up being wasted. There was plenty of corporate free speech purchased, a good deal of it outright lies. The majority of the American public wasn't buying any of it.
 

EddytoNow

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Now back to the current discussion regarding the Supreme Court decision in support of the Affordable Care Act. I have more respect for Justice Roberts and Justice Breyer than any of the others, because they are willing to actually listen to the arguments. It is usually their vote that decides which way a given case will be decided. The others, both liberal and conservative, already have their minds made up before the arguments have been presented.
 

IrishinSyria

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This is absolutely outrageous. From Roberts' decision:

“In this instance, the context and structure of the Act compel us to depart from what would otherwise be the most natural reading of the pertinent statutory phrase.”

Are you kidding me? Depart from the most natural reading of the pertinent phrase? In other words, we're going to ignore simple English because it's politically expedient. Absolutely outrageous.

the most natural =/ the only possible
 

IrishJayhawk

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Now back to the current discussion regarding the Supreme Court decision in support of the Affordable Care Act. I have more respect for Justice Roberts and Justice Breyer than any of the others, because they are willing to actually listen to the arguments. It is usually their vote that decides which way a given case will be decided. The others, both liberal and conservative, already have their minds made up before the arguments have been presented.

Kennedy, not Breyer. Breyer is generally aligned with the liberals.
 

IrishinSyria

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These lawyers are such slimy fuckers.

Chief Justice Roberts quietly burns Scalia in the Obamacare decision - The Washington Post

But seriously, nice work digging up that quote, Mr. Chief Justice. Back when I was (briefly) in practice, I used to love when I could find my opponent arguing the opposite of the position he was taking in our case. Happens surprisingly often, in law practice. Should not happen to a judge.

Great link, thanks for posting. Favorite part was a link to an older article:


Scalia and his vivid language, however, grabbed the attention of press, public—and, it turned out, lower-court judges. With stunning swiftness, federal district judges have heard and decided challenges to state same-sex marriage bans, and by May 2014, a dozen judges had struck them down—first in Utah; then in rapid succession, Ohio, Illinois, Virginia, Kentucky, and even Texas. Judges young and old, male and female, gay and straight, Republican and Democrat, read Windsor and saw in it a logic that doomed state efforts to confine marriage to its “traditional” function as a union of man and woman. And some of what they read was not in the majority opinion but in Scalia’s dissent. In fact, about half of the opinions explicitly cited Scalia’s words. A representative passage by Judge Timothy Black, a district judge in Ohio, states:

And now it is just as Justice Scalia predicted—the lower courts are applying the Supreme Court's decision, as they must, and the question is presented whether a state can do what the federal government cannot—i.e., discriminate against same-sex couples ... simply because the majority of the voters don't like homosexuality (or at least didn't in 2004). Under the Constitution of the United States, the answer is no ....
 

EddytoNow

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Kennedy, not Breyer. Breyer is generally aligned with the liberals.

Thank you for the correction. Kennedy and Roberts should be admired for entering each case with an open mind. I wish they sided with the liberal justices more frequently, but at least they aren't lapdogs for the conservative right, like Alito, Thomas, and Scalia.
 

NDgradstudent

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How soon we forget that this Supreme Court is stacked with conservatives. When Justice Roberts joined the conservative majority in ruling that a corporation was a person (a ruling that opened up the floodgates for buying elections), I didn't hear any whining from conservatives. Now that he has joined the liberal and moderate justices in upholding yet another aspect of the Affordable Care Act, the conservatives are out in full force asking how a conservative could rule this way.

As a liberal, I wasn't thrilled when Justice Roberts was nominated and confirmed, and I haven't agreed with many of his rulings. However, I must admit he has listened to arguments with an open mind that is atypical for the current crop of Supreme Court Justices.

Imagine that, a Supreme Court Justice with an open mind. Some of the other justices could learn from his example. Are you listening Alito and Thomas?

There are five Republican appointees and four Democratic appointees. Is that stacked? And who has an open mind, exactly? The Democratic appointees always vote in lockstep for liberal policies. This is not because they are simple partisans, but because their constitutional theory holds that the meaning of words morph as needed to achieve the correct result. Unsurprisingly, the correct result is always what is fashionable at present in their political party. The conservative judges are more likely have other norms they are committed to (such as deference to legislatures, as in Roberts' case) and therefore come to "liberal" results from time to time.

I offer the following challenge to you and others: can you name one major 5-4 case in the past twenty years where a Democratic appointee cast the decisive vote for a conservative result?

I cannot think of any.
 
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IrishinSyria

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So Justice Scalia is wrong for correctly predicting the future?

I assume you don't study law at Notre Dame? Dicta from a dissenting opinion from the Supreme Court is not controlling law, but it still can be persuasive authority. So when Scalia writes that:

The real rationale of today’s opinion, whatever disappearing trail of its legalistic argle-bargle one chooses to follow, is that DOMA is motivated by “‘bare ... desire to harm’” couples in same-sex marriages. How easy it is, indeed how inevitable, to reach the same conclusion with regard to state laws denying same-sex couples marital status.

he is not just "predicting the future"; he is shaping it. The majority opinion in that case deliberately did not reach the issue of whether the state laws were constitutional. The case was decided on grounds that did not require the result. However, because Scalia views his role in writing dissents as that of the Gawker blogger in chief, he inadvertently provided state judges with a strong rationale and really strong persuasive authority to get to that result. After all, when a Supreme Court justice says that the logic of a decision mandates a certain result in the case before them, who are they to say that he's wrong. He's the highest authority on the US Constitution, not them.

It's possible that states would have gotten to the same place without Scalia's help. With enough time, in fact, it's a certainty- because he's right: "Doma is motivated by bare ... desire to harm couples" and so are analogous state laws. However, it's also a certainty that his opinion greatly accelerated that result. State judges who would have been inclined to let the legislature take the ball on this one all of a sudden had a Supreme Court justice saying they had a constitutional obligation to strike down the laws.
 

IrishLax

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How soon we forget that this Supreme Court is stacked with conservatives. When Justice Roberts joined the conservative majority in ruling that a corporation was a person (a ruling that opened up the floodgates for buying elections), I didn't hear any whining from conservatives. Now that he has joined the liberal and moderate justices in upholding yet another aspect of the Affordable Care Act, the conservatives are out in full force asking how a conservative could rule this way.

As a liberal, I wasn't thrilled when Justice Roberts was nominated and confirmed, and I haven't agreed with many of his rulings. However, I must admit he has listened to arguments with an open mind that is atypical for the current crop of Supreme Court Justices.

Imagine that, a Supreme Court Justice with an open mind. Some of the other justices could learn from his example. Are you listening Alito and Thomas?

I freaking love it when someone goes to lengths to paint one side as the one with the staunch ideologues and the "problem"...

...

...

...while quite obviously they have their own staunch ideologues that are part of the "solution." You could take that statement and replace Thomas/Alito with Ginsburg or Stevens before he retired.
 

pkt77242

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There are five Republican appointees and four Democratic appointees. Is that stacked? And who has an open mind, exactly? The Democratic appointees always vote in lockstep for liberal policies. This is not because they are simple partisans, but because their constitutional theory holds that the meaning of words morph as needed to achieve the correct result. Unsurprisingly, the correct result is always what is fashionable at present in their political party. The conservative judges are more likely have other norms they are committed to (such as deference to legislatures, as in Roberts' case) and therefore come to "liberal" results from time to time.

I offer the following challenge to you and others: can you name one major 5-4 case in the past twenty years where a Democratic appointee cast the decisive vote for a conservative result?

I cannot think of any.

Just so we are on the same page, the past 20 years doesn't matter because Conservatives (those appointed by Republicans) have had the majority for all of that time, I believe. Why would a liberal be the deciding vote?

Also I think that there is another (your point is part but not all of it) reason that he has upheld the ACA twice. He is trying to make sure that people don't see the Supreme Court as politicized. That is very important to him.

Here is an interesting graph
800px-Graph_of_Bailey_Scores_of_Supreme_Court_Justices_1950-2011.png
 
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GoldenDome

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

======

So if SCOTUS were to take this little nugget literally and ignore intent, it would say that a well regulated militia would have the right to bear arms, not individuals. Bunch of fuckin hypocrisy.

Here is your well regulated militia. Enjoy attacking this one.
o-TARGET-570.jpg
 

NDgradstudent

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So when Scalia writes that: he is not just "predicting the future"; he is shaping it. The majority opinion in that case deliberately did not reach the issue of whether the state laws were constitutional. The case was decided on grounds that did not require the result. However, because Scalia views his role in writing dissents as that of the Gawker blogger in chief, he inadvertently provided state judges with a strong rationale and really strong persuasive authority to get to that result. After all, when a Supreme Court justice says that the logic of a decision mandates a certain result in the case before them, who are they to say that he's wrong. He's the highest authority on the US Constitution, not them.

State judges who would have been inclined to let the legislature take the ball on this one all of a sudden had a Supreme Court justice saying they had a constitutional obligation to strike down the laws.

Justice Scalia predicted in Lawrence in 2003 that we would eventually see federal judicial imposition of same-sex marriage. Most conservatives predicted this even before 2003. Liberals usually denied it as paranoid, but we now see that these denials were either naive or dishonest. After Lawrence (which also contained a "disclaimer" that Scalia dismissed) there was not any attack on state marriage laws by federal judges. Scalia also predicted in his Lawrence there are no grounds on which polygamy can be banned anymore but there has been no rush to constitutionalize polygamy, yet. So did they just not read Scalia's dissent? Or not care? Or maybe something else is driving these decisions? Indeed: this is all a matter of fashion.

In fact, the laughable and overwrought language in the Windsor decision (characteristic of Kennedy) plus the elite legal culture, which Scalia discusses in his Romer dissent, is the reason for the result in lower courts. Not anything Justice Scalia wrote. He was warning about the implications of the decision, which are obvious even if he had not written a dissent, as you acknowledge.

Justice Scalia does not believe that they have a constitutional obligation to invalidate laws that are constitutional, and he believes that these laws are constitutional. What he said in his Windsor dissent is that while there are thinks there are grounds to distinguish between Sec. 3 of DOMA and state marriage laws (there obviously are) he does not think that "this Court" will make such a distinction. Lower federal courts can and have made such distinctions, even post-Windsor, as Justice Roberts noted in his dissent. So they are by no means bound by Scalia's dissent, nor was there a lack of other authorities if they had wanted to reach a different result. They wanted to impose same-sex marriage on the country, against the will of many states, and that's it.

I also love that Justice Scalia is suddenly the most persuasive and important Supreme Court Justice! Would that this were true more often.
 

NDgradstudent

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Just so we are on the same page, the past 20 years doesn't matter because Conservatives (those appointed by Republicans) have had the majority for all of that time, I believe. Why would a liberal be the deciding vote?

Because the "swing" votes, such as Kennedy and O'Connor, often swing the other way, creating an opening for liberal Justices. For example, in Van Orden v. Perry, Justice Breyer voted with the conservatives to keep the Ten Commandments monument on the Texas Statehouse grounds, while O'Connor had voted against keeping it. This is not in my view a major case, because it is so narrow (covering literally one monument) that it has little value as precedent, but it did happen. The striking thing is that it does not happen more often.


I'm not surprised Geoff Stone (who said that the judges upholding the Partial Birth Abortion Ban did so because they are Catholic) thinks that the liberal judges are principled, and the conservative judges are not. His evidence is weak, though.

"Selective" judicial activism is a coherent theory of interpretation? Every judge engages in "selective" activism. Stone does not mention that the liberal judges seem to "select" the liberal causes, again and again. As for conservatives lacking a consistent theory of interpretation, he is right that the conservative judges do not have a single such theory- that's the point! Some are originalists, which usually leads to "conservative" results, because the original understanding of the Constitution does not require novel lefty causes, such as abortion, euthanasia, or same-sex marriage. It does not always do so, as Scalia made clear in Texas v. Johnson. Other judges, such as Roberts, emphasize deference and restraint.

I'm perfectly willing to say that all judges are politicians imposing their preferences. What those of us who are conservative need to ask ourselves is why are liberals better than us at picking loyal, party-line politicians to put on the bench?
 

BGIF

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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

======

So if SCOTUS were to take this little nugget literally and ignore intent, it would say that a well regulated militia would have the right to bear arms, not individuals. Bunch of fuckin hypocrisy.

Here is your well regulated militia. Enjoy attacking this one.
o-TARGET-570.jpg


In a militia, the individuals provide their own arms NOT the government. Hence, the right of the people to bear arms.
 

Bluto

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Does Scalia read his decenting arguments wearing a powdered wig, white knee high socks, belt buckle shoes, britches and a ruffled shirt? Gotta keep it real right?
 
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GoIrish41

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In a militia, the individuals provide their own arms NOT the government. Hence, the right of the people to bear arms.

Really? Isn't the National Guard considered a militia? I'm certain they don't provide their own weapons. Perhaps "militia" was differently defined when the 2nd Amendment was written ... but then, so too should be its interpretation.
 
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