Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

GoIrish41

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So where does that $2T come from?

I understand exactly what you are saying, but there is no way to do this without causing issues.

1 - Borrow $2T more? The current debt is at $18T. That would be a LARGE increase.
2 - Print it. For comparison, QE2 (which includes reinvested proceeds from QE1) was at about $900B.
3 - Tax your way out. But, any faith that surpluses would be treated differently than before?

There is no good answer.

Sure it will definitely cause issues. The Gulf War caused issues, too, but we came up with the $2 trillion to pay for that -- and that has caused us nothing but grief ever since and for the foreseeable future (and probably $billions more). That kinda money does not just fall out of the sky, so I understand that it would cause pain in the short and medium term, but it would provide security for the elderly (which we all become) in the long term. And with any luck we will have learned the lessons of our fiscal history and never do this again. Of your list, I'd choose #3 because I don't see any other feasible option. It sucks because of all of the solutions eventually punish the same people who got robbed in the first place. Both sides of the isle have plans to trim this, cut that, shrink this, stop paying for that, to get to their favored political goals. What if the political goal was to actually fix the problem? What if there was the political will to provide people security as they get old, just like we used to, instead of continuing to ensure that most of us are impoverished when we can no longer contribute as productive employees? I get that it would create other problems, but this is something that needs fixed now before there is catostophic consequences. None of us are getting any younger.

On a side note: I wish I had the time to research what exactly the money was spent for that was looted from the trust fund. I'd be willing to bet that there are some spectacularly wasteful things on that list.
 
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GoIrish41

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...so wait until the next Mesiah. No thanks. I'd rather deal with the problem now, with a known set of circumstances. I don't discount making room for a payback, but counting on it is asking for calamity. I personally believe there is a snowball's chance in hell this money is getting paid back...Angry people mean nothing to the government...if that were so, Washington might be functional. Support will not be as universal as you think because there will always be competing interests like a shiny NEW entitlement...SMH.

No need for a messiah, just someone that can make people understand that their self interest extends past the next 20 minutes!
 

Ndaccountant

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Sure it will definitely cause issues. The Gulf War caused issues, too, but we came up with the $2 trillion to pay for that -- and that has caused us nothing but grief ever since and for the foreseeable future (and probably $billions more). That kinda money does not just fall out of the sky, so I understand that it would cause pain in the short and medium term, but it would provide security for the elderly (which we all become) in the long term. And with any luck we will have learned the lessons of our fiscal history and never do this again. Of your list, I'd choose #3 because I don't see any other feasible option. It sucks because of all of the solutions eventually punish the same people who got robbed in the first place. Both sides of the isle have plans to trim this, cut that, shrink this, stop paying for that, to get to their favored political goals. What if the political goal was to actually fix the problem? What if there was the political will to provide people security as they get old, just like we used to, instead of continuing to ensure that most of us are impoverished when we can no longer contribute as productive employees? I get that it would create other problems, but this is something that needs fixed now before there is catostophic consequences. None of us are getting any younger.

On a side note: I wish I had the time to research what exactly the money was spent for that was looted from the trust fund. I'd be willing to bet that there are some spectacularly wasteful things on that list.

I will save you time.....General Government spending.

All along the Feds have treated the surplus as additional cash to pay expenses. So, why borrow when you have the cash on-hand already? So, they would consume the cash to pay for all government programs with the understanding that one day they will need to pay that back. Easy choice to make since the can gets kicked down the road. Problem is, that wasn't free money to the government, even though the books say differently.
 

GoIrish41

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So, why borrow when you have the cash on-hand already? So, they would consume the cash to pay for all government programs with the understanding that one day they will need to pay that back. Easy choice to make since the can gets kicked down the road.

Sounds like my teenagers' relationship to my wallet. :)
 

EddytoNow

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So: (1) the Baby Boomers will continue to enjoy full benefits; (2) but Millennials will have to suck up a steep cut to our SS benefits (which is what raising the retirement age amounts to); (3) because the corrupt f*cking politicians the Baby Boomers elected raided the trust fund.

This is intergenerational theft, and telling the young to just "suck it up" isn't justice. The short-sighted, materialistic, selfish as$holes who created this problem should be the ones to pay it. It's terribly ironic that Brokaw's Greatest Generation was immediately followed by the Worst Generation.

As a baby boomer, I feel compelled to respond. I started working at the age of 16 and have now worked for 47 consecutive years. All that time I have been paying into social security with the expectation that it would someday supplement my pension. Excuse me if I feel entitled to the "entitlement" when I reach age 66. After paying into the system for all these years, I resent being referred to as the worst generation when all I've done is financially support the previous generation with my social security contributions while holding down a job for 47 years. I never collected disability. Never collected welfare. Never depended upon food stamps. Never took a handout from anyone. All I'm asking for is that the government keep its word. They've taken my money for 47 years. In three more years it will be time for the government to honor its obligations. Social Security is not a handout. It was bought and paid for over many years.
 

Whiskeyjack

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As a baby boomer, I feel compelled to respond. I started working at the age of 16 and have now worked for 47 consecutive years. All that time I have been paying into social security with the expectation that it would someday supplement my pension. Excuse me if I feel entitled to the "entitlement" when I reach age 66. After paying into the system for all these years, I resent being referred to as the worst generation when all I've done is financially support the previous generation with my social security contributions while holding down a job for 47 years. I never collected disability. Never collected welfare. Never depended upon food stamps. Never took a handout from anyone. All I'm asking for is that the government keep its word. They've taken my money for 47 years. In three more years it will be time for the government to honor its obligations. Social Security is not a handout. It was bought and paid for over many years.

I obviously didn't intend that comment as a moral indictment of every individual Baby Boomer. But I stand by the assertion that your generation has a lot to answer for. Virtually every major problem our country faces today is directly attributable to the selfishness of Baby Boomers or the short-sighted decisions made by the politicians they elected.

Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" put in the hard work necessary to generate broad-based prosperity-- they got and stayed married, saved for the future, sacrificed for their kids, fought World War II, etc. Your generation inherited that broad-based prosperity and decided to throw itself a giant f*cking party, choosing to be more materialistic and hedonistic than any generation previous. Now the bill for that party is coming due, and guess who's being asked to pay for it? My generation, the Millennials. Yet your response, in typical Boomer fashion, is "I personally paid into the system, so I deserve to get mine."

And they say Millennials are the entitled ones...
 

pkt77242

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...great sentiment plowed through in HOPES it will not implode...some that had don't...some that didn't do...SAME.

Unfortunately what you just wrote isn't true across all of the U.S. (and it might not even be true about that area as they just look at a few people). The percentage of Americans without health insurance is falling across the US.
 

GoIrish41

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I obviously didn't intend that comment as a moral indictment of every individual Baby Boomer. But I stand by the assertion that your generation has a lot to answer for. Virtually every major problem our country faces today is directly attributable to the selfishness of Baby Boomers or the short-sighted decisions made by the politicians they elected.

Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" put in the hard work necessary to generate broad-based prosperity-- they got and stayed married, saved for the future, sacrificed for their kids, fought World War II, etc. Your generation inherited that broad-based prosperity and decided to throw itself a giant f*cking party, choosing to be more materialistic and hedonistic than any generation previous. Now the bill for that party is coming due, and guess who's being asked to pay for it? My generation, the Millennials. Yet your response, in typical Boomer fashion, is "I personally paid into the system, so I deserve to get mine."

And they say Millennials are the entitled ones...

The "Greatest Generation" lived through the Big One and the Great Depression, and they had the gumption and strength to stand up to tyrants and financial calamity and come out better for it. No doubt their intentions were well placed as parents. They didn't want their children to have to face the adversity that they faced. They wanted better lives for them than they had. But, as a practical matter, they spoiled their children, coddled them, raised a generation of materialistic, self-centered, and greedy malcontents who wanted it all right now no matter who they had to step on to get it. They sent them out into the world ill-prepared to handle the types of challenges their parents forged a reputation overcoming. The Baby Boomers made some terrible mistakes along the way that we are all, unfortunately, are left to us to clean up. That is not an indictment on any individuals, but of the generation as a whole. BBs are the product of parents who finally met a challenge that was bigger than they were -- raising children. They were, on balance, far from the greatest generation of parents. Nearly all of the problems we face today are self-inflicted and show few signs of getting fixed until the spoiled children of the Greatest Generation get out of the way. This, of course, is not to say that the Baby Boomers did not have some amazing contributions to the society and the world. Again, these are just my thoughts when I take a few steps back and take in the whole landscape that is heyday of the Baby Boomers.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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The "Greatest Generation" lived through the Big One and the Great Depression, and they had the gumption and strength to stand up to tyrants and financial calamity and come out better for it. No doubt their intentions were well placed as parents. They didn't want their children to have to face the adversity that they faced. They wanted better lives for them than they had. But, as a practical matter, they spoiled their children, coddled them, raised a generation of materialistic, self-centered, and greedy malcontents who wanted it all right now no matter who they had to step on to get it. They sent them out into the world ill-prepared to handle the types of challenges their parents forged a reputation overcoming. The Baby Boomers made some terrible mistakes along the way that we are all, unfortunately, are left to us to clean up. That is not an indictment on any individuals, but of the generation as a whole. BBs are the product of parents who finally met a challenge that was bigger than they were -- raising children. They were, on balance, far from the greatest generation of parents. Nearly all of the problems we face today are self-inflicted and show few signs of getting fixed until the spoiled children of the Greatest Generation get out of the way. This, of course, is not to say that the Baby Boomers did not have some amazing contributions to the society and the world. Again, these are just my thoughts when I take a few steps back and take in the whole landscape that is heyday of the Baby Boomers.

Agreed. They gave us:

  • Rock N Roll
  • Drugs
  • Sexual Revolution
  • Hippies (of which I like to empathize with)
  • Neutered incognizant males whose weak-willed attempts to show manliness include false bravado and over compensation in strange forms.
  • I'm fairly certain they carry the greatest blame for the aids epidemic and I can't prove it but they may have created cancer and loosed it on their parents.

Some of this is said tongue in cheek but seriously, the BB'ers f*cked us and we'll be lucky to carry their burden and get things straightened out for our own kids. I simply don't believe the milennials or gen-x'ers can get it straightened out because enough people don't comprehend the problem or have the self-denial wherewithal to see it through.

I have a group of friends who routinely discuss how our parents loved us but did us a grave disservice by not loving us enough to invoke more discipline. We were greatly handicapped as we went into the world.
 

EddytoNow

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I obviously didn't intend that comment as a moral indictment of every individual Baby Boomer. But I stand by the assertion that your generation has a lot to answer for. Virtually every major problem our country faces today is directly attributable to the selfishness of Baby Boomers or the short-sighted decisions made by the politicians they elected.

Brokaw's "Greatest Generation" put in the hard work necessary to generate broad-based prosperity-- they got and stayed married, saved for the future, sacrificed for their kids, fought World War II, etc. Your generation inherited that broad-based prosperity and decided to throw itself a giant f*cking party, choosing to be more materialistic and hedonistic than any generation previous. Now the bill for that party is coming due, and guess who's being asked to pay for it? My generation, the Millennials. Yet your response, in typical Boomer fashion, is "I personally paid into the system, so I deserve to get mine."

And they say Millennials are the entitled ones...

What you neglect to say is that the "Greatest Generation" collected social security checks that were to a great extent paid for by the "Baby Boomers" you are so quick to criticize. The Greatest Generation took money out of a system that they had not contributed much to themselves. They were a great generation in terms of fighting WWII and they benefited from the post-war economic boom that followed. However, it was the Baby Boomers who paid for their social security checks. So if anyone is getting screwed by the system, it would be the Baby Boomers, who paid for a previous generation's retirement and are threatened with the loss of their own. The truth is the Baby Boomers did fail. They parented the "Greedy Generation" which followed, a generation which thinks only of themselves and not of the well-being of the elderly in their own society.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The "Greatest Generation" lived through the Big One and the Great Depression, and they had the gumption and strength to stand up to tyrants and financial calamity and come out better for it. No doubt their intentions were well placed as parents. They didn't want their children to have to face the adversity that they faced. They wanted better lives for them than they had. But, as a practical matter, they spoiled their children, coddled them, raised a generation of materialistic, self-centered, and greedy malcontents who wanted it all right now no matter who they had to step on to get it. They sent them out into the world ill-prepared to handle the types of challenges their parents forged a reputation overcoming. The Baby Boomers made some terrible mistakes along the way that we are all, unfortunately, are left to us to clean up. That is not an indictment on any individuals, but of the generation as a whole. BBs are the product of parents who finally met a challenge that was bigger than they were -- raising children. They were, on balance, far from the greatest generation of parents. Nearly all of the problems we face today are self-inflicted and show few signs of getting fixed until the spoiled children of the Greatest Generation get out of the way. This, of course, is not to say that the Baby Boomers did not have some amazing contributions to the society and the world. Again, these are just my thoughts when I take a few steps back and take in the whole landscape that is heyday of the Baby Boomers.

There's certainly some truth in that, but let's not downplay the role of individual choices here. They inherited more advantages than any American generation previous, and they opted to squander that patrimony on huge suburban homes filled with kitschy crap from department stores, and they consistently elected politicians promising short-term gain at the expense of future generations. That's on them.

What you neglect to say is that the "Greatest Generation" collected social security checks that were to a great extent paid for by the "Baby Boomers" you are so quick to criticize. The Greatest Generation took money out of a system that they had not contributed much to themselves.

Well, yeah. They built the system.

However, it was the Baby Boomers who paid for their social security checks.

That's how the system works. Later generations pay for previous ones.

So if anyone is getting screwed by the system, it would be the Baby Boomers, who paid for a previous generation's retirement and are threatened with the loss of their own.

Who has threatened SS benefits for Boomers? Any reform proposal that doesn't include long phase-in periods is dead on arrival; largely because your cohort still votes like a bunch of self-centered jackasses.

They parented the "Greedy Generation" which followed, a generation which thinks only of themselves and not of the well-being of the elderly in their own society.

Are you referring to Generation-X, or the Millennials? Regardless, neither one can hold a candle to the greed of the Boomers.

There are four generations living under my roof currently, and the Millienials (my wife and I) are supporting the other three. Which is how it ought to be (and actually was for most of human history). Those with the financial means support the entire family, and those who can't work or don't earn much find other ways to contribute (by helping raise kids, for instance). Most of my peers want to get married, to have children and start saving for the future, but the current system-- built upon Boomer greed-- doesn't provide enough economic security for the vast majority of them to do so.

And now we're facing the prospect of having our own SS benefits greatly reduced, while the generation who f*cked us over will get to enjoy the full benefits of a system they've done their level best to bankrupt. As a generation, the Boomers deserve nothing but scorn.
 
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IrishLax

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Clearly the solution is to reinstitute the draft for anyone over age 55 and send them to fight ISIS or whoever the foe-of-the-month is. Would solve social security and all these other problems over night.
 

EddytoNow

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Your animosity toward the Baby Boomers seems to be eating away at you. Your scorn for the Baby Boomers is misplaced. It isn't the hard-working Baby Boomer that is the root of your own fear. It isn't Joe Average hoping to collect his $17,000 per year that threatens your financial stability. It is the heavy concentration of wealth at the top that threatens us all. If the average American earned more than a subsistence income, they might be able to invest money for their own retirement. Unfortunately, that wasn't available to most of the Baby Boomers. It took two incomes for the Baby Boomers to maintain a lifestyle comparable to that of their parents. There was little left for investment, and private pensions have become a luxury that will soon disappear completely.

You claim the Baby Boomers have nothing to fear. It is those like yourself that cause them the greatest fear. You would like to take away their social security checks or reduce their checks to insignificant amounts. I guess honoring one's word is lost on your generation. When I pay for a house, I expect to get a house. When I pay for life insurance, I expect the insurance company to pay up when I die. When I buy a candy bar, I expect to get the candy bar. Why? Because I believe in honor and integrity. And when I pay into the social security system for 50 years, I expect to receive the small subsistence check I was promised. It's all about honoring one's word.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Your animosity toward the Baby Boomers seems to be eating away at you. Your scorn for the Baby Boomers is misplaced. It isn't the hard-working Baby Boomer that is the root of your own fear. It isn't Joe Average hoping to collect his $17,000 per year that threatens your financial stability. It is the heavy concentration of wealth at the top that threatens us all.

Who patronized those corporations that have captured our government regulators? And who consistently voted for those politicians that waged endless war while cutting taxes and promising not to touch benefits?

If the average American earned more than a subsistence income, they might be able to invest money for their own retirement. Unfortunately, that wasn't available to most of the Baby Boomers. It took two incomes for the Baby Boomers to maintain a lifestyle comparable to that of their parents. There was little left for investment, and private pensions have become a luxury that will soon disappear completely.

You realize that you're basically conceding the argument that your generation was twisted by materialism, no? Why do you think you're entitled to live as well as your parents did? The criticism is not that you didn't cut your own SS, but that you failed to protect it for your grandchildren.

You claim the Baby Boomers have nothing to fear. It is those like yourself that cause them the greatest fear.

Oh, please. As I mentioned above, I'm more than doing my part to support the Boomers and Gen Xers in my own family. No one is arguing for targeting cuts against Boomers (and as I mentioned above, such a proposal would be a political non-starter anyway), but Millennials have every right to be furious with your generation.

You would like to take away their social security checks or reduce their checks to insignificant amounts. I guess honoring one's word is lost on your generation. When I pay for a house, I expect to get a house. When I pay for life insurance, I expect the insurance company to pay up when I die. When I buy a candy bar, I expect to get the candy bar. Why? Because I believe in honor and integrity. And when I pay into the social security system for 50 years, I expect to receive the small subsistence check I was promised. It's all about honoring one's word.

Social Security is a promise to future generations. Your generation is the one that has failed to keep its word. But please do keep prattling on about what you're entitled to, as you're making my point for me.
 

GoIrish41

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There's certainly some truth in that, but let's not downplay the role of individual choices here. They inherited more advantages than any American generation previous, and they opted to squander that patrimony on huge suburban homes filled with kitschy crap from department stores, and they consistently elected politicians promising short-term gain at the expense of future generations. That's on them.

You'll get no argument from me on any of that. I'm not excusing the excesses of the Boomers. It seems odd, though, that a whole generation of people would spontaneously behave poorly without some outside stimulus. Individuals make decisions based upon their own personal experiences, and those formative experiences were guided by their parents. Just as the experiences of the Depression and WWII shaped the Greatest Generation, so too did the experiences of their offspring. As I said in my previous post, their desire to protect and provide for their children is admirable, but I suspect it was also a bit misguided and shortsighted. It more than likely had a lot to do with the way their offspring behaved once they set off into the world. I'm also not expecting much from Kim Kardashian, Parris Hilton and Jack Osborne. They were given more than anybody I know, and they seem to be on the same trajectory as your view of the Boomers. That would suggest to me that human nature dictates -- in general terms -- spoiling, coddling and giving children their heart's desire does not prepare them to take the helm when it is their turn to steer the ship. One could get used to the luxuries of someone else providing for all your needs, and a pattern of instant gratification. Inheriting more is, in my judgement, the root cause of the mistakes of the Boomers. And again, I'm certainly not giving the Boomers a free pass for their collective social, societal, political or financial mistakes, but it was their parents who set them off to stand on their own on wobbly base.
 

IrishinSyria

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Economics is not a morality play.

Being rich does not lead to spoiled children.

It's weird to blame individuals, who make micro-economic choices, for the state of an economy driven by macro forces. I think boomers by and large made the choices that any generation would have made given their particular economic climate. I still feel pretty lucky to be born in America, so I don't see how they squandered anything.
 

phgreek

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Unfortunately what you just wrote isn't true across all of the U.S. (and it might not even be true about that area as they just look at a few people). The percentage of Americans without health insurance is falling across the US.

...and we shall see if it is sustainable...we'll see the real numbers and impacts within another 24-36 months, both historically, and present...maybe even real projections....because regardless of who it is who wins in '16, they are going to come clean on the numbers so as to protect their legacy...and then we'll know.

...so for now, I'd tout that shit as "less a failure than honest people thought" and "not near the success the liars portrayed".
 

EddytoNow

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Millennials have every right to be furious with your generation.
Social Security is a promise to future generations. Your generation is the one that has failed to keep its word. But please do keep prattling on about what you're entitled to, as you're making my point for me.

So naive. Social Security has always been funded by the current working and tax-paying population. It is not a promise to future generations. It is taking care of a previous generation. The Baby Boomers have honored their obligation and expect nothing more than what they were promised. We gladly paid our share. We took care of the "Greatest Generation" when they grew old and their health deteriorated. The problem with which you are faced is due largely to having a large number of people ready to collect on the promises made to them and a smaller pool of people currently paying into the system. I don't expect you personally to make up the difference. A change in our country's priorities would make more money available to meet the government's obligations. Less money spent on foreign aid and less money spent on the military would go a long way to gradually reducing the social security deficit. It would also help if everyone paid the same percentage of their wages into the social security system, something the wealthiest do not do considering the cap that exists for the wealthiest.
 

IrishLax

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So naive. Social Security has always been funded by the current working and tax-paying population. It is not a promise to future generations. It is taking care of a previous generation. The Baby Boomers have honored their obligation and expect nothing more than what they were promised.

It's really hard to make heads or tales of what you're actually saying. You appear to contradict yourself at multiple levels here.
 

Emcee77

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Economics is not a morality play.

Being rich does not lead to spoiled children.

It's weird to blame individuals, who make micro-economic choices, for the state of an economy driven by macro forces. I think boomers by and large made the choices that any generation would have made given their particular economic climate. I still feel pretty lucky to be born in America, so I don't see how they squandered anything.

Right. I don't understand what it means to "blame" the Baby Boomers, like any other generation would have made different choices in the same environment. It's the historical and cultural circumstances the Baby Boomers were in that caused their mistakes.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Economics is not a morality play.

Where did I claim otherwise?


I linked that article on IE months ago. And while I'd agree that there's not a direct causal relationship between wealth and morality, there's pretty clearly a strong correlation between decadent lifestyles and poor moral formation.

It's weird to blame individuals, who make micro-economic choices, for the state of an economy driven by macro forces.

Who's blaming individuals here? Any particular Boomer is no more "his generation" than a particular Congressman is "the government". But we can easily characterize some governments as bad and others as good, even though they're made up of thousands of individual moral actors and frequently moved by "macro" forces. I see no reason why generations can't be judged on the same criteria.

I think boomers by and large made the choices that any generation would have made given their particular economic climate.

This is where we disagree. Perhaps I'm misinterpreting you, but there's a strain of vulgar Marxist determinism on the Left that sees everything through the lens of economics. In doing so, it fails to account for the socio-cultural forces that, in the case of the Boomers, were at least as important in politics as the economics. If we're going to avoid the mistakes they made, we have to be able to identify what went wrong and when.

And again, I'm certainly not giving the Boomers a free pass for their collective social, societal, political or financial mistakes, but it was their parents who set them off to stand on their own on wobbly base.

I agree with you, but see the paragraph above for why it's important that we condemn the materialism and short-sightedness of the Boomers.
 
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