Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Whiskeyjack

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Yes. How far can this reasoning take us? It is the problem that I cannot look past. One could claim all manner of religious objections to all manner of things.

We've had RFRA laws for 20+ years, and sexual orientation still isn't a protected class. Yet nowhere in this country have we seen systemic discrimination against gays. See the article by Conor Friedersdorf linked above for a longer treatment of this exact issue.

Thing is, I completely agree with everything you say here. I just believe that denying someone a service that is offered to the public at large is "unduly infring[ing] upon their rights."

That's why it's important (to me) to distinguish between businesses and individuals. I'm much more comfortable if a business's rights are curtailed than I am if an individual's are. As an individual, nobody is forced to associate with blacks or gays or women or Muslims or any other group of people they don't like, for whatever reason. But I strongly believe that as a business, you should not be able to deny someone service because they fall into any of those or other categories.

Again, see the Yuval Levin article at the top of the page. This is essentially forcing anyone who doesn't toe the line for the Church of Progressive Liberalism out of the public square by defining "religious liberty" down to smallest possible sphere. That's how European countries with established state churches used to operate, but Madison felt strongly that American religious minorities deserved better than that.
 

Bishop2b5

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Thing is, I completely agree with everything you say here. I just believe that denying someone a service that is offered to the public at large is "unduly infring[ing] upon their rights."

Almost all rights and the exercise thereof are a balancing act. Your rights are limited to the reasonable exercise of them up to the point where they unduly affect the ability of others to exercise and enjoy their own rights. My neighbor has the right to enjoy his home and a reasonable amount of privacy and lack of intrusiveness from his neighbors. I enjoy playing my guitar in my home, and since it's my home, I have that right. However, I don't have the right to stand on my deck at 2am with my amp turned up to 11 while wailing out a bad version of Voodoo Chile on my Strat, but neither does my neighbor have the right to expect total silence from my property 24/7. Both would unduly affect the right of the other to a reasonable enjoyment of their home.

I understand the need to not discriminate against anyone or treat them unfairly, but that has to be balanced out with the rights of others to not be forced to violate their own legitimate religious beliefs or morals.
 

GoIrish41

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We've had RFRA laws for 20+ years, and sexual orientation still isn't a protected class. Yet nowhere in this country have we seen systemic discrimination against gays. See the article by Conor Friedersdorf linked above for a longer treatment of this exact issue.



Again, see the Yuval Levin article at the top of the page. This is essentially forcing anyone who doesn't toe the line for the Church of Progressive Liberalism out of the public square by defining "religious liberty" down to smallest possible sphere. That's how European countries with established state churches used to operate, but Madison felt strongly that American religious minorities deserved better than that.

With respect, this s different than in any time over the past 20 years. This tension over the Indiana law has forced the right to draw a line in the sand. As the 16 election cycle gets in gear there is the compulsion for one side to step over. That cannot go unchecked in this hyped up, contensious political environment. This has a high risk of getting ugly if it s not handled properly.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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Just a nit, let's quit acting like these businesses were hurt. The pizzeria has raised over $500k through their gofundme page. Knowing their market well, I guarantee you that they have never had a bottom line that big in their history. This exposure will end up being an economic boom for these three small businesses. So I think its disingenuous for us to continue acting like they are a victim. If anything, they are playing this scenario for every penny it's worth.

Indiana pizzeria raises $500,000 after saying it wouldn't cater a gay wedding | The Verge

They haven't attempted to play anything. 3rd parties setup a funding campaign and it would appear through Christian goodwill, they've received a windfall. These small companies would be bankrupted/out of business with this type of vitriolic response. I understand some of you view their actions and responses to hypotheticals as outright bigotry so you believe they received what they rightfully deserved.

These businesses were still hurt and countless others will be moving forward. The only problem is that they'll be hurt without an audience to rally support.

I'm still flabbergasted by the pizza shop. They answered a question to a hypothetical and they were bombarded. We have entered an age of thought policing by democratic mobs. Bow the knee & kiss the ring of progressive liberalism or suffer the consequences.
 

Whiskeyjack

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With respect, this s different than in any time over the past 20 years. This tension over the Indiana law has forced the right to draw a line in the sand. As the 16 election cycle gets in gear there is the compulsion for one side to step over. That cannot go unchecked in this hyped up, contensious political environment. This has a high risk of getting ugly if it s not handled properly.

I agree, but ugly for whom? Earlier in this thread, I stated that I don't oppose SSM because there's no rational basis for excluding them based on what most Americans take "marriage" to mean now. Thus, we see the libertine Left embracing big business on this issue, and the acquisitive Right can't even articulate a coherent defense for religious liberty that doesn't involve self-harm.

There's literally no one with any power in this country who feels like orthodox Christians are entitled to the same legal protections we've always extended to religious minorities.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Well what if an adult and a minor came in, maybe that's a NAMBLA date. What if a person and their pet came in, bestiality maybe. Hypotheticals mean very little. Especially when the law being discussed is only to be used in court and still doesn't mean the business gets away with what they did.

Perhaps you don't know what I meant by "...clearly on a date." I'm not saying they were hanging out. I'm saying they were affectionate, possibly kissing, much like many heterosexual couples who would never be questioned.
 

GoIrish41

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I agree, but ugly for whom? Earlier in this thread, I stated that I don't oppose SSM because there's no rational basis for excluding them based on what most Americans take "marriage" to mean now. Thus, we see the libertine Left embracing big business on this issue, and the acquisitive Right can't even articulate a coherent defense for religious liberty that doesn't involve self-harm.


There's literally no one with any power in this country who feels like orthodox Christians are entitled to the same legal protections we've always extended to religious minorities.

Does it matter for whom? Probably everyone ... involved or not ... is my prediction.

I think where we diverge is that I believe those should not infringe on the rights of others. If I believed as the ultra religious Aztecs did in an annual human sacrifice I doubt anyone would defend my religious rights to practice my faith. There would be at a minimum an outcry for the rights of the affected human. A little extreme I know but that is just a matter of degree, no?
 
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GoIrish41

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They haven't attempted to play anything. 3rd parties setup a funding campaign and it would appear through Christian goodwill, they've received a windfall. These small companies would be bankrupted/out of business with this type of vitriolic response. I understand some of you view their actions and responses to hypotheticals as outright bigotry so you believe they received what they rightfully deserved.

These businesses were still hurt and countless others will be moving forward. The only problem is that they'll be hurt without an audience to rally support.

I'm still flabbergasted by the pizza shop. They answered a question to a hypothetical and they were bombarded. We have entered an age of thought policing by democratic mobs. Bow the knee & kiss the ring of progressive liberalism or suffer the consequences.

Do I point to every nutjob malitia member and call out the GOP mob because they were made possible by crazy right wing gun laws? I would thank you not to lump me in with criminals.
 

Emcee77

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I am more comfortable with the idea of forcing a business to cater to clients the individual running the business doesn't like than I am with the idea of allowing businesses to discriminate against clients based on their membership in a minority group.

Right, that's pretty much how I feel about it. I take the Rights of Conscience really seriously (my wife is a Catholic OB/GYN, so they are a big deal in my house). But I don't think a person should be able to set up a bakery or flower shop or photography business and offer his services only to straight weddings because his religion prohibits gay weddings.

Why? Because providing a paid service to people who are having a gay wedding, he doesn't actually participate in the wedding. Any discomfort it might cause him to provide the service is far outweighed by the humiliation the gay wedding participants would feel if he were to tell them, "we don't serve your kind here."

There have been vociferous objections in this thread to any comparison between the modern gay rights movement and the civil rights movement, and I agree that such comparisons have often been hyperbolic, but I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that what a gay wedding participant would feel upon hearing "we don't serve your kind" is pretty similar to what a black person might have felt when he walked up to a lunch counter in the Old South and was told, "we don't serve your kind." The history of discrimination is different, but if one type of discrimination is illegal, it seems to me the other should be illegal too. The wedding photographer (or other hypothetical vendor's) sincere religious beliefs should be weighed as a factor, I have no problem with that, but it would be hard for me to conclude that he is justified in discriminating against gay wedding participants.

Thing is, I completely agree with everything you say here. I just believe that denying someone a service that is offered to the public at large is "unduly infring[ing] upon their rights."

Right, I have the same feeling.

Excuse me here guys with all your blurry lines and slippery slopes...this does not definitely say that businesses can refuse to serve LGBTs. It basically gives the business owner a potential defense in court if they do in certain situations, but it will still be up to the court to decide.

Correct?

Right. A court would have to do a more law-ified version of the analysis I did in the first part of my post. (I am a lawyer, and I've been known on this site to discuss issues like this from a legal perspective, but what I wrote above was just from-the-gut musing, not legal reasoning.) The court would basically ask, "ok, you've raised your religious beliefs as a defense; now, is there a compelling reason why you should have to serve a gay wedding anyway, despite your religious objection? And if so, is there some less restrictive alternative than forcing you to serve a gay wedding?"
 
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Veritate Duce Progredi

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Do I point to every nutjob malitia member and call out the GOP mob because they were made possible by crazy right wing gun laws? I would thank you not to lump me in with criminals.

There are those who fit my description and those who don't. If you don't believe yourself to be a part, then feel free to take no offense.
 

IrishinSyria

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Again, see the Yuval Levin article at the top of the page. This is essentially forcing anyone who doesn't toe the line for the Church of Progressive Liberalism out of the public square by defining "religious liberty" down to smallest possible sphere. That's how European countries with established state churches used to operate, but Madison felt strongly that American religious minorities deserved better than that.

Not going to lie, I started multiple posts trying to respond to the article (which I really liked) and deleted them all because I didn't feel like I could articulate a reasonable response to it without spending way more time than I have. That being said, I'll try to do a quick version:

1. Almost nothing in the parade of horribles the article enumerated bothered me. I'm 100% ok with a freedom of religion that allows individuals untrammeled freedom to practice their religion, but does not allow them to impose their beliefs on others outside of very narrow contexts (see: the civil-rights section in the Texas RFRA).

2. One of the reasons I'm ok with the parade of horribles is that I don't think Madison is the last word on the role of religion in America. I subscribe to a more Jeffersonian view, which emphasizes freedom of belief but includes the important caveat that "if anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise as it had happened in a fair or market." In other words, I believe that the law of the nation does and should trump the law of God (Render unto Caeser...). And I believe the ultimate law of the nation is that "all men are created equal."

Madison said

It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to Him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society.

I (and I think Jefferson) disagree with the bolded. At the very least, I do not believe that an effective society can be designed with the caveat that all of its rules are subordinate to the religious edicts of its people, especially when We The People are such an incredibly diverse group. I mean, shouldn't it be against the religion of every Christian to pay taxes in a state that has the death penalty? Or even in a nation that routinely uses lethal force in environments that don't quite meet the requirements of Christian Just War theory?

3. I simply disagree with the assertion that liberalism is a "religion." I agree that liberal values do, in some important ways, subsume Christian values. However, I think the distinctions are just as important. For one, the moral authority of liberalism is not found in the Bible or divine revelation, but in the founding documents of our country (which, admittedly, were heavily influenced by Christian tradition). Again, "all men are created equal" is- I believe- the foundational principle of our country. To me, this means that the rights of the individual must trump the rights of a group. Certainly, it hardly makes sense to say that there must be a barrier between religion and State but that a belief in the State is effectively a religion. Yet that seems to be the argument advanced in Levin's piece.

4. I will gladly admit that the specific question being raised here- should a business owned and controlled by a conservative christian that serves weddings be legally prevented from refusing to serve a gay wedding- is a close one and that it is not clear that much harm will arise from it being answered in the negative. I also agree that any threats made against the pizza place were completely inappropriate and I hope that the people who made them are held accountable for them if legally appropriate. However, I do think that the larger principle is important, incredibly so. A reluctance founded in religion to cater a gay wedding may not be harmful, but one doesn't need to look too hard to find examples of religious beliefs that are obviously harmful. It was against school rules at Bob Jones University for students to go on interracial dates. A student who went to BJU and then went on to, say, open up a restaurant, would have a very strong argument that it was against his religious beliefs to serve customers when one was black and the other was white. Mormons used to clearly treat blacks as inferior. Should Mormons in Salt Lake City have been free to turn away black customers based on their beliefs?

I disagree that religion is being chased out of the public square. American Christians are not persecuted by any stretch of the imagination. We are completely free to worship, to proselytize, to observe our sacraments. Our churches have tax exempt status. The state makes no attempt to control what we say or what we believe. However, I also believe that the "public square" in America is broadening. Our country accepts more people of more diverse backgrounds and beliefs today than it has in the past. I think that if religious people are leaving the public square it is because they can't accept the general broadening of the square, not because they are being forced out. And, honestly, I'm ok with that. The greatest accomplishment of the American project has been its gradual expansion of the classes of people who benefit from the lofty idea of equality. I will be the first to say that no business should have the right to discriminate against someone because of their religious beliefs. At the same time, I also believe that no religious belief should enable a business to discriminate against another citizen. Everyone is welcome into the square, but only to the extent they are willing to tolerate everyone else in the public square.
 
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IrishinSyria

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On a lighter note, I'm also hugely amused at the tragicomic irony of watching some conservatives come to the defense of religious liberty in the US while simultaneously trying to pass anti-Sharia statutes when, to the extent Sharia is used at all in the US, it is used exclusively in the context of intra-faith civil arbitration.
 

IrishinSyria

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This poses no moral or double standard problem, because it's about the baker refusing based on the specific design of the cake and not the identity of the customer.

Like, if a gay couple wanted a cake with two naked dudes on it and went to a Christian bakery, I would have no problem with the bakery refusing to make the cake. Or if I went to a Muslim bakery and asked for a cake showing Jesus planting an American flag into a burning Qur'an, they should be free to refuse to make that cake. Or if I went to a Christian bakery and asked for a Cake that said "God is Dead," they could refuse to make that. In none of those cases is the baker discriminating against the beliefs of his potential customer.

Of course, some would argue that I'm drawing a distinction without difference. That a cake with a heart around the names "Brian and Ted" could be inherently offensive regardless of who the customer is. If I were trying to articulate a test, I would say that it should be "is the product being asked for one that the business would normally provide a customer from another class of people." But, you know, I'd word it better.
 

kmoose

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I don't know how to respond to this except to be brutality honest. What did you expect the LGBT community to do? Religious Conservatives started the fight by passing things such as DOMA (though this was supported by many moderates as well), passing state amendments banning gay marriage.....

I would argue that the LGBT Community started this fight... With their hyperbolic "separate but equal is NOT equal" campaign, designed to conjure up white guilt about how poorly the Black Community was treated in the US. As if these comparisons had some kind of merit.

many states refuse to give basic rights to the LGBT community such as protecting them from being fired, being discriminated against for housing, etc.

Cry me a river. There aren't any special laws for white Irish/German mutts. The LGBT community has the same protections that I have.

Religious Conservatives (not all but many) attacked the gay people first, and yet seem to be utterly surprised when the LGBT community started fighting back, and demanding to be treated as equals. Then the same Religious Conservatives makes statements such as the LGBT community is fighting Christianity, or is waging a war on Christianity. What was the LGBT community supposed to do? Sit there and accept being discriminated against? I feel like many people are blaming the LGBT community for fighting back when they were the ones who were punched first.

Again, I think you are wrong. I think that the LGBT Community was the one who started punching first, labelling everyone who didn't jump for joy in celebration of them as a homophobe, and refusing to accept compromises like civil unions.

I myself wouldn't call it a war against Christianity, it is a fight to gain equal rights, it just happens that it is mostly Christians who are opposing them so it feels that way.

You fight to gain equal rights by standing up to bigotry, WHERE IT EXISTS. Not all Christians are bigoted, any more than all homosexuals are fantasizing about you in the shower.
 
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Buster Bluth

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I would argue that the LGBT Community started this fight... With their hyperbolic "separate but equal is NOT equal" campaign, designed to conjure up white guilt about how poorly the Black Community was treated in the US. As if these comparisons had some kind of merit.

Cry me a river. There aren't any special laws for white Irish/German mutts. The LGBT community has the same protections that I have.

Again, I think you are wrong. I think that the LGBT Community was the one who started punching first, labelling everyone who didn't jump for joy in celebration of them as a homophobe, and refusing to accept compromises like civil unions.

Because civil unions are an insult. It's exactly that separate but equal you're writing about in your first paragraph. They're winning that fight as 37/50 states have agreed with them.

You fight to gain equal rights by standing up to bigotry, WHERE IT EXISTS. Not all Christians are bigoted, any more than all homosexuals are fantasizing about you in the shower.

I think it's super that you stand up against the generalization of Christians while generalizing the shit out of the gay community. Not all gays are flamboyant in-your-face attention whores. You seem to suffer from a bad case of confirmation bias.
 
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IrishJayhawk

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Cry me a river. There aren't any special laws for white Irish/German mutts. The LGBT community has the same protections that I have.

That's just laughably false. You can't be fired because of your ethnicity. In many states (including Indiana), gay people can be fired because they are gay.

snopes.com: Fired for Being Gay

In 20 years, our children are going to be horrified to learn what LGBTQ people had to deal with.
 

IrishinSyria

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I would argue that the LGBT Community started this fight... With their hyperbolic "separate but equal is NOT equal" campaign, designed to conjure up white guilt about how poorly the Black Community was treated in the US. As if these comparisons had some kind of merit.



Cry me a river. There aren't any special laws for white Irish/German mutts. The LGBT community has the same protections that I have.

Can an Irish not marry a German in some states?
 

NDgradstudent

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In 20 years, our children are going to be horrified to learn what LGBTQ people had to deal with.

In 20 years there will probably be an in utero treatment to prevent homosexuality, "gender identity disorder," etc., so most of this will be moot. It should be obvious that even the most "liberal" and "tolerant" parents will use it.
 
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Buster Bluth

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In 20 years there will probably be an in utero treatment to prevent homosexuality, "gender identity disorder," etc., so most of this will be moot. It should be obvious that even the most "liberal" and "tolerant" parents will use it.

holy hell stop
 

IrishJayhawk

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In 20 years there will probably be an in utero treatment to prevent homosexuality, "gender identity disorder," etc., so most of this will be moot. It should be obvious that even the most "liberal" and "tolerant" parents will use it.

I don't have any idea what you're talking about.
 

NDgradstudent

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I don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Not very complicated or shocking, really. Given the progression of science -including the development of "designer babies"- it is likely, in my view, that either a test or a remedy for homosexuality will be developed within the next two decades (see for discussion Francis Fukuyama, Our Posthuman Future, 39-40). Assuming that they can afford it, parents already select for sex, eye color, etc. Surely you realize this?

The way Catholics should respond to all of this is of course disputed. We rightly oppose aborting children for being imperfect and oppose attempts to select for sex, hair color, eye color, etc., but we do not oppose treatments to remedy ailments (e.g. fetal surgery for spina bifida). Homosexuality is more like the former cases than the latter ones, as far as I can tell from the Catechism.

If you think liberals would not use such a treatment, think again. No liberal would say that a down syndrome kid should use a separate water fountain, or whatever, but they still are comfortable aborting such children at an appalling rate. They obviously don't consider fetuses persons, so any fiddling, killing, etc., is acceptable.
 

NDgradstudent

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They're winning that fight as 37/50 states have agreed with them.

You should probably do a bit more research on the law before making those sort of claims. Only 18 states have adopted same-sex marriage through internal mechanisms (state courts, state legislatures or state referenda). Almost all of the rest have explicitly rejected it through constitutional amendments and/or statutes. Same-sex marriage is only legal in those states because of imposition from federal judges, not because of any groundswell of support within those states.
 

IrishJayhawk

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Not very complicated or shocking, really. Given the progression of science -including the development of "designer babies"- it is likely, in my view, that either a test or a remedy for homosexuality will be developed within the next two decades (see for discussion Francis Fukuyama, Our Posthuman Future, 39-40). Assuming that they can afford it, parents already select for sex, eye color, etc. Surely you realize this?

The way Catholics should respond to all of this is of course disputed. We rightly oppose aborting children for being imperfect and oppose attempts to select for sex, hair color, eye color, etc., but we do not oppose treatments to remedy ailments (e.g. fetal surgery for spina bifida). Homosexuality is more like the former cases than the latter ones, as far as I can tell from the Catechism.

If you think liberals would not use such a treatment, think again. No liberal would say that a down syndrome kid should use a separate water fountain, or whatever, but they still are comfortable aborting such children at an appalling rate. They obviously don't consider fetuses persons, so any fiddling, killing, etc., is acceptable.

So, in the meantime, we should make sure that businesses can fire gay people...?

Let me google that for you
 

AvesEvo

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Second, I think you should have your day in court to argue for an exemption. You won't win, since you will not be able to connect your animus towards creationists with a sincere religious belief. But the protection of religious minorities is critically important, so even cranks and bigots should get a fair hearing.

So he loses, wouldn't it still be his duty to himself to follow his conscience? In which case, nothing has changed so what's the point? Just because a court rules against his position doesn't change his position. Or am I misunderstanding you?
 
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Buster Bluth

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Not very complicated or shocking, really. Given the progression of science -including the development of "designer babies"- it is likely, in my view, that either a test or a remedy for homosexuality will be developed within the next two decades (see for discussion Francis Fukuyama, Our Posthuman Future, 39-40). Assuming that they can afford it, parents already select for sex, eye color, etc. Surely you realize this?

The way Catholics should respond to all of this is of course disputed. We rightly oppose aborting children for being imperfect and oppose attempts to select for sex, hair color, eye color, etc., but we do not oppose treatments to remedy ailments (e.g. fetal surgery for spina bifida). Homosexuality is more like the former cases than the latter ones, as far as I can tell from the Catechism.

If you think liberals would not use such a treatment, think again. No liberal would say that a down syndrome kid should use a separate water fountain, or whatever, but they still are comfortable aborting such children at an appalling rate. They obviously don't consider fetuses persons, so any fiddling, killing, etc., is acceptable.

You are an unlikeable person, the sort of guy who makes me loathe religion.

edit: BGIF you can shove the neg rep. I'll call anyone suggesting disturbing opinions like those above an unlikeable person, at a minimum. His ideas are a 21st century eugenics program, and are absolutely disgusting.
 
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Buster Bluth

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You should probably do a bit more research on the law before making those sort of claims. Only 18 states have adopted same-sex marriage through internal mechanisms (state courts, state legislatures or state referenda). Almost all of the rest have explicitly rejected it through constitutional amendments and/or statutes. Same-sex marriage is only legal in those states because of imposition from federal judges, not because of any groundswell of support within those states.

So true or false, 37/50 allow gay marriage?
 

GoIrish41

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In 20 years there will probably be an in utero treatment to prevent homosexuality, "gender identity disorder," etc., so most of this will be moot. It should be obvious that even the most "liberal" and "tolerant" parents will use it.

Homosexuality is not a disease to be cured. Your observation is offensive as hell!
 
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