Politics

[Old Man Mike]

Constantly boggled by these sorts of viewpoints.... powerful violent acts come from violent people who have nothing of spirituality in them. When looking for the roots of almost anything "bad", look to money-greed or megalomaniacs, both of which are the opposite of the spiritual bases of all faiths. "Muslims" who initiate [i.e. are the beginning causal instigators of] actions which kill people should have parentheses around their affiliation ... so should "Christians" ... so, given the true founding principles of our nation, should "Americans."

I see no hint of true religion in any of the terrorist groups, but I see a huge "CULTURAL" burying of morality based upon insane power-mongering leaders, using "religion" as a power tool to bend fools. Does that mean we return to the peace-and-love sixties and pat these thugs on the head and say "sorry that you've been so deprived of love"? Nope. If an animal has rabies and is threatening to kill your girlfriend, you blast it away. ... but you don't kill the whole "species" because that one was diseased.

 

[BobD]

They are going to recruit the disenfranchised and we have lots of them. Seems like we're gonna have loser freaks doing hideous things in the name of something they know nothing about for years to come.

 

[Wild Bill]

It's been one of the largest religions for hundreds of years.

I think you missed my point entirely.

Maybe. What was your point?

 

[T Town Tommy]

It always baffles me that folks want to damn an entire religion of 1.57 BILLION people, claiming that the vast majority are radical. Which is literally impossible mathmatically. If even half were radicals hell bent on destroying western values than they would do it. If you combined USA's, China's and Russia's military (roughly 8 million people)... you would have .5% of the muslim faith.

Wrap your head around that...

There is a huge difference in Islamophobia versus Islamo-Fascism. When we have Imam's on our very soil that advocate such things as Sharia Law in favor of our constitutional republic, then I have an issue with that. That's sedicious speech against our way of life. If you are Muslim in America then you have every right to practice your religion and spread your message peacefully. I don't condemn the millions upon millions of Muslims who are peaceful people. But I will openly criticize those peaceful Muslims who remain silent when it comes to the atrocities that is done in the name of their "religion." And the Imams that preach against our constitutional way of life and/or advocate violent methods to get there have responsibility with their so called "free speech."

Sadly, if we don't change how we deal with this then the only thing we will be wrapping is our hands around our guns. What's it going to take for people to wake up and realize that today it is Western Europe but tomorrow it will be the US? The passive attitude of Western Europe has come back to bite them. Are we too nieve to see we are heading down the same path?

 

[phgreek]

They are going to recruit the disenfranchised and we have lots of them. Seems like we're gonna have loser freaks doing hideous things in the name of something they know nothing about for years to come.

YUP. But don't be surprised when some of the hideous things turn out to be perpetrated by radical Muslims long dedicated to "the cause"...Radical Muslims whom we failed to identify...those who lived among us, functioned in our midst, and hated us....waiting, coiled like a snake to strike...will we have the fortitude to call those what they really are, and learn?

 

[woolybug25]

There is a huge difference in Islamophobia versus Islamo-Fascism. When we have Imam's on our very soil that advocate such things as Sharia Law in favor of our constitutional republic, then I have an issue with that. That's sedicious speech against our way of life. If you are Muslim in America then you have every right to practice your religion and spread your message peacefully. I don't condemn the millions upon millions of Muslims who are peaceful people. But I will openly criticize those peaceful Muslims who remain silent when it comes to the atrocities that is done in the name of their "religion." And the Imams that preach against our constitutional way of life and/or advocate violent methods to get there have responsibility with their so called "free speech."

Sadly, if we don't change how we deal with this then the only thing we will be wrapping is our hands around our guns. What's it going to take for people to wake up and realize that today it is Western Europe but tomorrow it will be the US? The passive attitude of Western Europe has come back to bite them. Are we too nieve to see we are heading down the same path?

The "passive attitude of Western Europe"? Have you looked at what the laws are in those countries? France in particular, Muslim women aren't allowed to wear traditional headdresses and veils in France. That would never happen in the US. Acting like they are "getting bit in their ass" because of soft attitudes is beyond ridiculous.

Also, we are all so fervent regarding Muslims needing to openly condemn their acts of violence in their faith, but why do we not have the same fervor in the Christian community in regards to openly condemning the massive genocide that has been taking place in Africa under the guise of Christianity for as long as any of us have been alive?

I think too many people look at this in a vacuum and assume the world stops at our doorstep. Thinking that if we somehow "stop Muslims", then we stop terrorism. That is a very short sighted view, imo.

 

[Buster Bluth]

They are going to recruit the disenfranchised and we have lots of them. Seems like we're gonna have loser freaks doing hideous things in the name of something they know nothing about for years to come.

The key is, when it happens, not to panic and hand over your rights in return for a promise of protection that the government cannot even give you.

 

[woolybug25]

Maybe. What was your point?

Don't worry about it, my friend. I'm sure it's outside of your depth.

 

[IrishinSyria]

There is a huge difference in Islamophobia versus Islamo-Fascism. When we have Imam's on our very soil that advocate such things as Sharia Law in favor of our constitutional republic, then I have an issue with that. That's sedicious speech against our way of life. If you are Muslim in America then you have every right to practice your religion and spread your message peacefully. I don't condemn the millions upon millions of Muslims who are peaceful people. But I will openly criticize those peaceful Muslims who remain silent when it comes to the atrocities that is done in the name of their "religion." And the Imams that preach against our constitutional way of life and/or advocate violent methods to get there have responsibility with their so called "free speech."

Sadly, if we don't change how we deal with this then the only thing we will be wrapping is our hands around our guns. What's it going to take for people to wake up and realize that today it is Western Europe but tomorrow it will be the US? The passive attitude of Western Europe has come back to bite them. Are we too nieve to see we are heading down the same path?

Sharia law has been legally recognized in the US for almost 100 years. Same with law derived from the Talmud, all sorts of Christian law, and I'm sure a lot of other religions too. The Federal Arbitration Act was passed in 1925 and requires courts to give deference to the outcomes of arbitration when two parties to a dispute have contractually agreed to arbitration. This commonly comes up in contract, family, and real estate law. There's nothing preventing people from using an arbitrator who applies religious law to the dispute as opposed to the common law. Generally, courts will uphold these decisions. In a very real sense then, the US recognizes Sharia as part of its legal system. When the vast majority of American Muslims in favor of Sharia talk about it, this is what they're referring to.

And we're not even close to heading down the same path as Europe. In general, American muslims do better than average. They are slightly more educated and slightly wealthier than your average American. They come from all over the globe, worship in mixed congregations, and interact frequently with their non-muslim neighbors. They are free to build minarets with their mosques, wear the hijab or not wear the hijab, and they enjoy (and cherish) all the same constitutional protections as anyone else. This is in stark contrast to Europe's muslim communities, which are much more ethnically concentrated and are relatively isolated from the rest of society. They are subject to rules (such as the ban on the Hijab) that most Americans would consider a flagrant violation of basic rights. They are poorer than their neighbors, and lack the same access to education and employment that others enjoy.

Despite all of that, the vast majority of them are peaceful and are good, productive citizens. One of them was executed during the attack while performing his duties as a police officer (he was shot in the groin and then the head). French Muslims have indeed rallied around him as a symbol of what they stand for. Voltaire's famous quote has become something of a rallying cry for them: Je ne suis pas Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. I do not agree with what you have to say. But I will die defending your right to say it.

 

[T Town Tommy]

The "passive attitude of Western Europe"? Have you looked at what the laws are in those countries? France in particular, Muslim women aren't allowed to wear traditional headdresses and veils in France. That would never happen in the US. Acting like they are "getting bit in their ass" because of soft attitudes is beyond ridiculous.

Also, we are all so fervent regarding Muslims needing to openly condemn their acts of violence in their faith, but why do we not have the same fervor in the Christian community in regards to openly condemning the massive genocide that has been taking place in Africa under the guise of Christianity for as long as any of us have been alive?

I think too many people look at this in a vacuum and assume the world stops at our doorstep. Thinking that if we somehow "stop Muslims", then we stop terrorism. That is a very short sighted view, imo.

There are whole neighborhoods in Paris that the French police will not even go in to. Germany is as passive as it gets. There's even communities in America where police shy away from. Look at Minnesota and Michigan. States with large populations of Muslims and, Minnesota in particulr, that have issues roight now with homegrown terrorism. And that passiveness has now caused France , in particular, to have to deal with the extreme branch of the Muslim community, hence the tougher laws. But, the events of this week have shown that France was too late. They will be dealing with terrorism coming from elements within the Muslim community from now on. As I stated, I have no issue with peaceful Muslims in our country. But unlike most people who move to our country, a large percentage of Muslims to not integrate into our communities and become Americans. Instead, we get to hear Imams spreading their hatred like cancer and we don't hear those peaceful Muslims condemning such hate. And that's exactly how it started in Western Europe.

As far as Christianity, the premise of the "religion" is not jihad. It's not murder, terror, rape, and on and on. I would argue that if not for Christianity, this world would be in much worse shape than it is now. And with some out here, that won't be a popular statement. However, show me anywhere where the teaching of Jesus is anything close to the cancer being spread in mosque's around the world.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Sharia law has been legally recognized in the US for almost 100 years. Same with law derived from the Talmud, all sorts of Christian law, and I'm sure a lot of other religions too. The Federal Arbitration Act was passed in 1925 and requires courts to give deference to the outcomes of arbitration when two parties to a dispute have contractually agreed to arbitration. This commonly comes up in contract, family, and real estate law. There's nothing preventing people from using an arbitrator who applies religious law to the dispute as opposed to the common law. Generally, courts will uphold these decisions. In a very real sense then, the US recognizes Sharia as part of its legal system. When the vast majority of American Muslims in favor of Sharia talk about it, this is what they're referring to.

And we're not even close to heading down the same path as Europe. In general, American muslims do better than average. They are slightly more educated and slightly wealthier than your average American. They come from all over the globe, worship in mixed congregations, and interact frequently with their non-muslim neighbors. They are free to build minarets with their mosques, wear the hijab or not wear the hijab, and they enjoy (and cherish) all the same constitutional protections as anyone else. This is in stark contrast to Europe's muslim communities, which are much more ethnically concentrated and are relatively isolated from the rest of society. They are subject to rules (such as the ban on the Hijab) that most Americans would consider a flagrant violation of basic rights. They are poorer than their neighbors, and lack the same access to education and employment that others enjoy.

Despite all of that, the vast majority of them are peaceful and are good, productive citizens. One of them was executed during the attack while performing his duties as a police officer (he was shot in the groin and then the head). French Muslims have indeed rallied around him as a symbol of what they stand for. Voltaire's famous quote has become something of a rallying cry for them: Je ne suis pas Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. I do not agree with what you have to say. But I will die defending your right to say it.

The version of Sharia law that is being preached in mosque's in America as we type is starkly different than what you stated. And, as I have stated, I don't have issues with peaceful Muslims. I have issues with peaceful Muslims remaining quiet when elements within their own community are planning and executing terrorist acts against those who believe differently than them. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of those peaceful Muslims have the intel necessary to prevent terrorist acts but do not come forth. Why? Because many typically have family members associated with the extreme elements and/or are afraid to come forth.

And, while I respect your opinion on Western Europe, I disagree completely for the reason's I stated above in my prior posts.

 

[BobD]

YUP. But don't be surprised when some of the hideous things turn out to be perpetrated by radical Muslims long dedicated to "the cause"...Radical Muslims whom we failed to identify...those who lived among us, functioned in our midst, and hated us....waiting, coiled like a snake to strike...will we have the fortitude to call those what they really are, and learn?

The key is, when it happens, not to panic and hand over your rights in return for a promise of protection that the government cannot even give you.

I know it may sound slightly paranoid but this situation has caused me to rethink my stance on gun control. I'm getting a concealed carry permit and will have it with me whenever I leave the house. I'm not going to find myself in a situation where I can't defend my wife or myself because some lunatic starts shooting up a restaurant or something. If possible I'm getting my wife one also. I've been taking her to an indoor range here and she's doing very well.

Just a few years ago I would of said there is no way I'd ever say something like this

 

[T Town Tommy]

I know it may sound slightly paranoid but this situation has caused me to rethink my stance on gun control. I'm getting a concealed carry permit and will have it with me whenever I leave the house. I'm not going to find myself in a situation where I can't defend my wife or myself because some lunatic starts shooting up a restaurant or something. If possible I'm getting my wife one also. I've been taking her to an indoor range here and she's doing very well.

Just a few years ago I would of said there is no way I'd ever say something like this

Better to be prepared than not. Just be sure to check all applicable laws for concealed carry. Don't want you getting cuffed for not knowing. Let's hope you never have to use your gun.

 

[BobD]

Better to be prepared than not. Just be sure to check all applicable laws for concealed carry. Don't want you getting cuffed for not knowing. Let's hope you never have to use your gun.

I pray it never comes to that but God help anyone who ever tries to hurt my wife.

 

[Wild Bill]

Don't worry about it, my friend. I'm sure it's outside of your depth.

It won't be if it's your thought/opinion. And if it's actually well thought and intelligent, cite your source.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

It always baffles me that folks want to damn an entire religion of 1.57 BILLION people, claiming that the vast majority are radical. Which is literally impossible mathmatically. If even half were radicals hell bent on destroying western values than they would do it. If you combined USA's, China's and Russia's military (roughly 8 million people)... you would have .5% of the muslim faith.

Wrap your head around that...

I'll be the first to say not all Muslims are terrorists. After that, I'd be the first to remind everyone that we don't have a problem with radical Buddhists, Mormons, Baptists, etc.

I'd also remind you, Wooly, that it doesn't take a great number to do a lot of damage. In addition, it's not just those who commit these acts but those who support them one way or another. Polling of Muslims in the US and the UK after 9/11 would scare you if you took 5 minutes to look at it.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Maher doesn't think much better of Christianity. Pick your allies carefully, Leppy.

I disagree with 96% of what that guy says. This time, he made sense when it comes to much of the left's attitude towards Islam. Many on the left still believes global warming or the tea party is the greatest threat of terrorism facing the US.

And always quick to defend Islam after an attack like this, always quick to deflect, always first to the microphone like Howard Dean saying, "these guys are not Muslims." Well, yes they are. They don't represent the majority, but they're not radical Lutherans taking part in suicide bombings, hatchet jobs in the streets (UK), or flying planes into buildings.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The Next Islamist Rampage - WSJ

“A group of core al Qaeda terrorists in Syria is planning mass casualty attacks against the West,” said Andrew Parker, the director general of British security service MI5, in a speech Thursday. His timing was no accident. Mr. Parker said some 600 British citizens have traveled to Syria, many joining Islamic State. “We face a very serious level of threat that is complex to combat and unlikely to abate significantly for some time.”

 

[Domina Nostra]

I know it may sound slightly paranoid but this situation has caused me to rethink my stance on gun control. I'm getting a concealed carry permit and will have it with me whenever I leave the house. I'm not going to find myself in a situation where I can't defend my wife or myself because some lunatic starts shooting up a restaurant or something. If possible I'm getting my wife one also. I've been taking her to an indoor range here and she's doing very well.

Just a few years ago I would of said there is no way I'd ever say something like this

A lot of us nut jobs who think the same way as you do now, started with the same assumptions you did before, and changed our minds in the same way you did! But its one thing to sacrifice yourself for some abstract ideal. Its another thing to sacrifice your family. The police cannot protect your family in those situations, period. So what are you going to do? What's your plan?

Now that you have changed your mind be prepared to be ostracized!

One thing that sounded bat-s--t crazy to me, but then started making sense was that guns rights commercial where they pointed out that the President's daughter is constantly protected with armed-guards. My initial reaction was, "BUT THAT'S SOOOO DIFFERENT, she is so much more high profile, so she is a target for crazy people, and her being kidknapped could have national security ramifications!!!" That is all spot on, BUT, it does not change the basic equation. They protect her with guns because they need guns to protect her from armed criminals. They could not protect her from armed criminals without them.

The exact same thing applies to your child. Sure it is less likely to happen. And sure, no one is going to care nearly as much about your kid. But why should I, as the father, care about that? To me, my own daughter is every bit as important as the President's daughter.

 

[connor_in]

Here's the thing...you can agree with someone's point and not endorse all of that person's beliefs. So just because PL agrees with Maher on the treatment of Muslims in the media, he doesn't have to believe religion is stupid (see Religiosity)

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: These Paris Attacks Are Not About Religion

"Nor should we blame America’s foreign policy as the spark that lights the fuse. Poverty, political oppression, systemic corruption, lack of education, lack of critical thinking, and general hopelessness in these countries is the spark."

I don't think Kareem is a bad guy at all, but his belief here is not only wrong but inexplicably ignorant. Read what they write. Listen to what they say. Has absolutely NOTHING to do with poverty or lack of education. A number of these people want to destroy the West, some want to fight a global jihad, etc. Kareem made himself look really bad in writing this.

Poverty, lack of education, corruption, etc to me all fall in line with the Occupy movement, not Islamic terrorism.

 

[wizards8507]

Agreed Leppy. They hate the West not because we have iPhones and big houses and an often aggressive foreign policy. They hate us because we exist and we're non-believers.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Agreed Leppy. They hate the West not because we have iPhones and big houses and an often aggressive foreign policy. They hate us because we exist and we're non-believers.

We know that most people who are poor, politically oppressed, in corrupt systems, uneducated, etc... don't murder.

We also know that the vast, overwhelming majority of Muslims don't murder.

The question is, why is it reasonable and politically correct to assert that (1) "Poverty, political oppression, systemic corruption, lack of education, lack of critical thinking, and general hopelessness" leads to violence... but unreasonable to assert that (2) Islam leads to violence. There seems to be lots of evidence for both?

The answer is just ideology. The assertion that "All religions teach peace" is as an indisputable matter of definition, for some people. Its a dogmatic assertion of secularism. You just aren't allowed to believe anything else, because Western secular democracy is historically based on treating religions neutrally to undermine factionalism. To admit that some have inherent problems that others don't creates some very, very big issues for our system. So far we haven't had to deal with these, because the really problematic sects have been so small as to not cause any systemic issues. We are fast approaching the point where these questions have to get asked.

The fact is that Mohamed had a military career, and used violent force to spread his religion. The ideal that he creates--his religion-- takes this into account. That part of his legacy was never abandoned by Mohamed during his life or by his followers subsequently. It follows that IT IS AT LEAST POSSIBLE that his religion may not be peaceful in the way we generally mean. On the other hand, while Christians have started there fair share of wars, Jesus never conquered anything, lived as a wandering preacher, and instructed his followers not to try to prevent his execution and to forgive those who did it. It follows that Christianity might possibly have a different conception of peace than Islam, right?

If Islam and Christianity were both stories that we knew were made up--Hollywood movies--so we had no stake in them, would people really insist that the followers of the Mohamed character and the followers of the Jesus character were indistinguishable when it came to their attitudes towards religion and violence? And would it really be so hard to conclude that other men like Constantine and Cortez, were not a whole lot like Jesus, while many of the subsequent Muslim conquerors seemed to be following (albeit imperfectly) in Mohamed's footsteps?

BUT, none of this means that most muslims are violent and don't love peace. I am sure that the overwhelming majority of Christians and Muslims want pretty much exactly the same things. We are talking about the fringe who really deeply get into their religion and try to imitate its founder and saints. Those men do not look the same, anymore than they look like Hindu priests, or Bhuddist monks.

 

[Cackalacky]

I'll be the first to say not all Muslims are terrorists. After that, I'd be the first to remind everyone that we don't have a problem with radical Buddhists, Mormons, Baptists, etc.

Muslims in Indochina have significant issues with Buddhist Terrorists. What is the common thread between us and muslims and muslims and bhuddists? Violent responses to geopolitics, racial/cultural issues and economics propped up by religious beliefs and justifications.

 

[BobD]

Muslims in Indochina have significant issues with Buddhist Terrorists. What is the common thread between us and muslims and muslims and bhuddists? Violent responses to geopolitics, racial/cultural issues and economics propped up by religious beliefs and justifications.

Humans cant stand sharing opinions and celebrating differences. Our idea is always better than the other guys and if he doesn't see it our way then we better set him straight.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Muslims in Indochina have significant issues with Buddhist Terrorists. What is the common thread between us and muslims and muslims and bhuddists? Violent responses to geopolitics, racial/cultural issues and economics propped up by religious beliefs and justifications.

I totally agree that most conflicts between religionists have alternative explanations that make a lot more sense.

But are you asserting that religion can NEVER be the primary cause of a conflict, or denying some religions may lend more credence to violent resolutions of conflicts, than others?

Has there ever been a purely religious war? If not, has there ever been a religion which was founded to justify a person or people's desire to conquer?

 

[Domina Nostra]

Humans cant stand sharing opinions and celebrating differences. Our idea is always better than the other guys and if he doesn't see it our way then we better set him straight.

LOL! Have you ever heard the story of Gov. Napier who represented Great Brittain in Bombay. When the Hindu priests complained about his outlawing the burning of widows alive on the funeral pyre of her husband, Napier responded:

"Be it so. This burning of widows is your custom; prepare the funeral pile. But my nation has also a custom. When men burn women alive we hang them, and confiscate all their property. My carpenters shall therefore erect gibbets on which to hang all concerned when the widow is consumed. Let us all act according to national customs."

 

[Bluto]

I'll be the first to say not all Muslims are terrorists. After that, I'd be the first to remind everyone that we don't have a problem with radical Buddhists, Mormons, Baptists, etc.

I'd also remind you, Wooly, that it doesn't take a great number to do a lot of damage. In addition, it's not just those who commit these acts but those who support them one way or another. Polling of Muslims in the US and the UK after 9/11 would scare you if you took 5 minutes to look at it.

We have a huge problem with radical Christians in this country. You know the dudes who bombed The Fed building in Oaklahoma, shoot doctors, blow up clinics, shot up a Sikh temple, shot up a Jewish Day school much more so than we do "radical Muslims". In fact , crazy 20 - 30 something white dude(s) seems to be the most common profile when it comes to mass murder in this country.

If your big worry is a Muslim Terrorist showing up on your door step with a set of Ginsu knives you are worrying about the wrong things.

 

[phgreek]

I know it may sound slightly paranoid but this situation has caused me to rethink my stance on gun control. I'm getting a concealed carry permit and will have it with me whenever I leave the house. I'm not going to find myself in a situation where I can't defend my wife or myself because some lunatic starts shooting up a restaurant or something. If possible I'm getting my wife one also. I've been taking her to an indoor range here and she's doing very well.

Just a few years ago I would of said there is no way I'd ever say something like this

Good for you. I think taking action in the face of a threat (however statistically small the pundits tell us it is) is good. I think this is perfectly appropriate, and helps folks be LESS likely to surrender rights to uncle sam.

As I was told...whatever your reason for getting a CCP, understand there are a number of reasons that force us to consider deadly force when we have the means on us...the overwhelming majority of which would have nothing to do with your original motivation to get a CCP. Try and go through the exercise of determining situations that would cause you to go for your gun, and do the mental reps. Thinking some things through up front makes you not have to do alot of deep thinking when faced with danger and a go, no go decision to use your weapon. I think you probably know all this ...but it is worth repeating.

 

[Bluto]

Agreed Leppy. They hate the West not because we have iPhones and big houses and an often aggressive foreign policy. They hate us because we exist and we're non-believers.

Yep, has nothing to do with blowing people up and invading whenever we see fit for whatever reason we made up, backing mass murders who used chemical weapons and consistently propping up dictators in the region. The U.S. puts a ton of energy into making it easy to hate what it represents.

Imagine for a minute what the US response would be if there were a couple of hundred thousand dead US civilians due to a violent act.