Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352
C

Cackalacky

Guest
So when do we get the other countries of the world to sign up for environmental regulations? The whole issue with global warming to me comes down to the this: it seems there are few countries that will regulate themselves while the US makes themselves much less competitive in the global economy with harsher and harsher regulations. Not to mention the economic impact of lost jobs, wages, and higher prices for goods that we all face.

I think we all have an obligation to protect the environment, but when the China's and Russia's of the world could care less, does it really matter?

I would say the continued existence of our species is pretty damn important and that we need to stop putting a price tag on everything. As of right now earth is all we have and that is a lot but at the same time it is not as we have nowhere else to go.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
So when do we get the other countries of the world to sign up for environmental regulations? The whole issue with global warming to me comes down to the this: it seems there are few countries that will regulate themselves while the US makes themselves much less competitive in the global economy with harsher and harsher regulations. Not to mention the economic impact of lost jobs, wages, and higher prices for goods that we all face.

I think we all have an obligation to protect the environment, but when the China's and Russia's of the world could care less, does it really matter?

I guess it's debatable whether or not it would make us more or less competitive. Take away fossil fuels and how competitive would Russia be? China seems to understand the problem at least. If you remove access to US markets would the Chinese be more agreeable?

I'm not buying the lost jobs argument. It would be a transition to "different" jobs as was the case when the economy shifted away from manufacturing. It doesn't have to be an either or proposition in my opinion.
 

BobD

Can't get no satisfaction
Messages
7,918
Reaction score
1,034
Forrest Gump: I don't know if Momma was right or if, if it's Lieutenant Dan. I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floating around accidental-like on a breeze, but I, I think maybe it's both. Maybe both is happening at the same time.


I don't know who's right OMM or RDU......maybe both
 

condoms SUCk

Varsity Club Member
Messages
1,992
Reaction score
391
Here are my thoughts,
The Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old, during the past the Earth has been warmer and it has been cooler. The oceans have been higher and the oceans have been lower. There have been long periods of glaciation and short periods. There have been mass extinctions in the past and there will be more mass extinctions to come. In the larger scope of things, this global warming period will not ruin the Earth forever, the next mass glaciation will occur no matter what we do. So to say that we will “destroy the Earth or turn it into Venus” is a gross apocalyptic and a flat out false statement.
It amazes me that people actually think we can singlehandedly affect the climate of an entire planet!! We are an insignificant blip on planet Earth, not to mention the universe. Guess what, in another 4.5/5 Billion years, the sun will use all its Hydrogen, expand to a red giant and either devour the Earth or fry it to a crisp. It doesn’t matter in the larger scope of time.
Now do I think we should move to alternative energies? Yes I do, but unfortunately we have yet to develop an alternative energy source that is as cheap and as efficient as fossil fuel. Last I knew solar is only about 5-10% efficient, wind only works….when it’s windy. Nuclear is a possible alternative but there are some major concerns.
We need to develop cold fusion, solar that is vastly more efficient, and have a total revolutionary paradigm shift in how we view our natural resources and what we use to power transportation. Not to mention that once we have found a new energy resource to power transportation the infrastructure get our country/civilization to transition will take decades to do so.
In short, fossil fuels are what we have to use at the moment and for the foreseeable future, continued use will not kill us all tomorrow. We need to continue to look at alternative energies but the ugly truth is we don’t have anything remotely close to use right now.
 

Old Man Mike

Fast as Lightning!
Messages
8,964
Reaction score
6,453
With no hope whatsoever of changing any of the disputants' minds, I'll give a small bit of personal history.

I taught science at WMU for 30 years, and most of that time I gave special topic lectures on the problems of global dependency on oil deposits in the Persian Gulf --- from "political" concerns. This is very much like putting a huge amount of the world's "personal wealth" [an analogy term for those already too irate to think non-literally] in a very high-risk investment. All that turned out to be true and we had to fight a bunch of wars, kill lots of people who "we don't care about", and protect a bad decision investment "too big to fail."

As my career went on, I shifted to straight Environmental teaching, all those years [about 20] attending the American Association for the Advancement of Science meetings, and consequently every session on the growing Global Climate Change issue I could. What impressed me was what the biologists were seeing --- many precursors of species habitat shifts and species being extirpated because they couldn't shift [either because there was no suitable habitat at all, or they were too slow to move to one [ex. a plant]. While folks concentrated on the statistical studies to take their cheap shots, the skeptics ignored the biologists because they knew they had no answers for that. The varied mass of climate change indicators has marched "onward" since those early days when the community began to become alarmed.

Those of us who were not naive knew quite early that this alarm was almost certain to be ignored. Our non-naivete arose because we were historians of technology as well as scientists and we knew that the only solutions to the problem would be aimed directly at the heart of the global techno-economic system and all the massive power that this represents both physically, economically, politically, and in "average Joe Citizen's" psychology. Almost everyone educated as an engineer did not want to admit that the dominant system that they had built had a tragic flaw in it either.

So trying to convince certain people [many of whom exist even on this board] that what sounds like esoteric science which they don't honestly understand is correct and needs attention before it's actually killing them and their loved ones, much less people "we don't care about", was always a very low percentage hope.

But what should a moral man do? Just forget it as a Don Quixote fiasco and dance on?, or try to do what one can? That's what the scientists are doing: what they can. Frankly many of us are depressed by what we hear whether we expected it or not. Many have quit their activism. Many know that the established techno-giants, who have too much to lose, and the politicians who think the same way about them, will simply not do anything of significance.

I, in my retirement years, "know" that we will do nothing. I because I care about moral decisions in my personal life, will continue not to drive a car, produce food on my roof-garden and support the local growers, recycle so much that I only place out three bags a year, have nothing but compact fluorescents and LEDs in my house and pay a premium for green energy from the local giant.... and much more which is "inconvenient." But in my view, the game is already lost. Nothing to do now except sit back, do what little I can, and watch the "excitement" on television as less adaptable people and things about our world die.
 

T Town Tommy

Alabama Bag Man
Messages
6,278
Reaction score
2,768
I would say the continued existence of our species is pretty damn important and that we need to stop putting a price tag on everything. As of right now earth is all we have and that is a lot but at the same time it is not as we have nowhere else to go.

I don't disagree but when other countries don't seem to give a damn, then what we do will not make a difference in the larger scheme of things. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right but my point was simply that if others don't care then what we do is not very relevant in the end.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I don't disagree but when other countries don't seem to give a damn, then what we do will not make a difference in the larger scheme of things. Doesn't mean we shouldn't do what is right but my point was simply that if others don't care then what we do is not very relevant in the end.

Everything is relevant. Everything is with meaning. Lead by example. We are smart creatures and with one ultimate destiny. That destiny does not have a fucking dollar sign attached to it.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
... I think we all have an obligation to protect the environment, but when the China's and Russia's of the world could care less, does it really matter?

Check out the Kyoto Protocol. Here's a snippet taken from Wickipedia (my least favorite reference source, but this is pretty straightforward and simple:

There are 192 parties to the convention: 191 states (including all the UN members except Andorra, Canada, South Sudan and the United States) and the European Union.[12] The United States signed but did not ratify the Protocol and Canada withdrew from it in 2011.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Here are my thoughts,
The Earth is around 4.5 Billion years old, during the past the Earth has been warmer and it has been cooler. The oceans have been higher and the oceans have been lower. There have been long periods of glaciation and short periods. There have been mass extinctions in the past and there will be more mass extinctions to come. In the larger scope of things, this global warming period will not ruin the Earth forever, the next mass glaciation will occur no matter what we do. So to say that we will “destroy the Earth or turn it into Venus” is a gross apocalyptic and a flat out false statement.
It amazes me that people actually think we can singlehandedly affect the climate of an entire planet!! We are an insignificant blip on planet Earth, not to mention the universe. Guess what, in another 4.5/5 Billion years, the sun will use all its Hydrogen, expand to a red giant and either devour the Earth or fry it to a crisp. It doesn’t matter in the larger scope of time.
Now do I think we should move to alternative energies? Yes I do, but unfortunately we have yet to develop an alternative energy source that is as cheap and as efficient as fossil fuel. Last I knew solar is only about 5-10% efficient, wind only works….when it’s windy. Nuclear is a possible alternative but there are some major concerns.
We need to develop cold fusion, solar that is vastly more efficient, and have a total revolutionary paradigm shift in how we view our natural resources and what we use to power transportation. Not to mention that once we have found a new energy resource to power transportation the infrastructure get our country/civilization to transition will take decades to do so.
In short, fossil fuels are what we have to use at the moment and for the foreseeable future, continued use will not kill us all tomorrow. We need to continue to look at alternative energies but the ugly truth is we don’t have anything remotely close to use right now.

Germany is producing 30% of its energy with renewables. Over 50% of this is privately produced. Others are following suit just not us. And yes we can affect the climate enough to ruin it for us and many other organisms. It is already happening.
 

T Town Tommy

Alabama Bag Man
Messages
6,278
Reaction score
2,768
Everything is relevant. Everything is with meaning. Lead by example. We are smart creatures and with one ultimate destiny. That destiny does not have a fucking dollar sign attached to it.

Sadly most of the world doesn't agree with you Cacky.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Sadly most of the world doesn't agree with you Cacky.

I concur and long ago realized that most of world is full of twats. Lol.
#domyownthang

BTW OMM:
I also do what I can. I am just not good at expressing it as you are. Through conscious effort I have reduced my garbage out put to less than 30 pounds per month and recycle damn near 75% of my consumables. Yes it is more expensive and I look like a bloody idiot doing it but that's ok.
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
I would say the continued existence of our species is pretty damn important and that we need to stop putting a price tag on everything. As of right now earth is all we have and that is a lot but at the same time it is not as we have nowhere else to go.

It would be nice if we lived in Star Trek world, but the simple truth is we do not. It is not just the price tag, but that is part of it, yes, because this is the real world and things intertwine in ways we can predict and in ways we cannot. As someone who is so big on science and politics, you are certainly well aware of unintended consequences. I was sorry to see your response ("LMAO") to my question on what happens if we institute the proposed changes and how that effects us economically and geopolitically. If we bankrupt or depress ourselves pursuing headlong into the radical changes that are wanted to be made nearly unilateraly, how long do you think we will continue the policies you seek. Unfortuantely, we are somewhat the world's policeman. What happens when we don't project power because we are turned inward trying to heal ourselves?

I personally would love cleaner, more efficient energy (not to mention cheaper), but what we need is less of a slash and burn mentality on our existling energy sources and more like a focused Manhattan Project/Space Race mentality to develop improvement in the greener energies. That being said, you need to watch out for the crony capitalism that created the likes of the catastrophe at Solyndra and the like where huge investments disappeared in a puff of green smoke in a heartbeat. If we can improve the output of the greener energies, THEN transitioning people to them would be easier, less painful, and could be better embraced worldwide.

Basically it comes down to this...you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Politically speaking, you will get more people more eager to follow you if you lead them instead of trying to rule them.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
I quit reading at UN....

Would you have continued reading had the 192 countries been listed indivually with no mention of the UN???

Here's an article (OK, OK – it's from The San Francisco Chronicle so some may want to reach for their stash of salt grains) on what some of the major producing countries in the middle east are doing:

Saudi Arabia plans solar panel factory - SFGate

They're no dummies. Reserve as much of their only real commodity for sales to oil addicts elsewhere while also working on manufacturing infrastructure to produce solar energy components to sell to those same addicts when the wells begin to dry.

The profit motive may well save our asses. But initially only those with foresight. It's sad to see that greed trumps concern for the health of the planet and its inhabitants as the major motivating force in this three act farce.
 

T Town Tommy

Alabama Bag Man
Messages
6,278
Reaction score
2,768
Would you have continued reading had the 192 countries been listed indivually with no mention of the UN???

Here's an article (OK, OK – it's from The San Francisco Chronicle so some may want to reach for their stash of salt grains) on what some of the major producing countries in the middle east are doing:

Saudi Arabia plans solar panel factory - SFGate

They're no dummies. Reserve as much of their only real commodity for sales to oil addicts elsewhere while also working on manufacturing infrastructure to produce solar energy components to sell to those same addicts when the wells begin to dry.

The profit motive may well save our asses. But initially only those with foresight. It's sad to see that greed trumps concern for the health of the planet and its inhabitants as the major motivating force in this three act farce.

Anything associated with the corrupt organization known as the UN doesn't interest me.

As far as solar panels, alternate energy, etc, I am all for it. As a matter of fact, I am for us moving away from our vast resources of oil and moving to our alternative fuels such as natural gas. I am for solar energy, wind energy, and any other type of energy we can develop for the masses. What I am not for is for an organization that is as corrupt as the UN leading the way in this area. Sorry... but everything the UN touches turns to crap, corruption, etc.

edit: As I have stated, I should do more research on my own so I can bring more educated contributions to the topic. We can all agree that this world is the only one we have and we should do what we can to protect it.
 
Last edited:

Wild Bill

Well-known member
Messages
5,518
Reaction score
3,262
I concur and long ago realized that most of world is full of twats. Lol.
#domyownthang

BTW OMM:
I also do what I can. I am just not good at expressing it as you are. Through conscious effort I have reduced my garbage out put to less than 30 pounds per month and recycle damn near 75% of my consumables. Yes it is more expensive and I look like a bloody idiot doing it but that's ok.

It's a huge pain in the ass for me to recycle at home too. I live in a high rise and residents have very limited access to recycling bins. I can't "store" the recyclables and do it on my own either due to lack of space. I've spoken to other residents in the city who have the same issue. I have to go out of my way to give someone a resource that they'll turn around and use to make a profit. It make no sense to me, but I digress.

Let's get back to arguing. We could be extinct soon.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
If this is in response to my post on looking into adherence to the Kyoto protocol, I don't see the relevance..

Agenda 21 is a non-binding, voluntarily implemented action plan of the United Nations with regard to sustainable development.[1] It is a product of the UN Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED) held in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, in 1992. It is an action agenda for the UN, other multilateral organizations, and individual governments around the world that can be executed at local, national, and global levels. The "21" in Agenda 21 refers to the 21st Century. It has been affirmed and modified at subsequent UN conferences

It is relevant in that it is tied to the Kyoto protocol. It is relevant in that progress in sustainable development is inextricably tied to climate change. It is relevant because many Americans dislike the UN. It is relevant now because Republicans (in particular) think the UN is attempting to form a one-world government. It is relevant because of people like this that no global initiatives will ever be successful.
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
CacksyGator:

All I can say is "Be still my bleeding liberal heart!"
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
I am so liberal I even save stranded alligators.
gatorcamaro.jpg


One of them wont leave and is basically my guard animal
gatorknocking.jpg
 

dshans

They call me The Dribbler
Messages
9,624
Reaction score
1,181
I tried to find a reliable source for Guard Moose (Mooses???), but the Bullwinkles kept wandering off during rutting season. All I'm left with are my guard kitties, which I assume would qualify as gator Scooby Snacks
 

condoms SUCk

Varsity Club Member
Messages
1,992
Reaction score
391
Germany is producing 30% of its energy with renewables. Over 50% of this is privately produced. Others are following suit just not us. And yes we can affect the climate enough to ruin it for us and many other organisms. It is already happening.

Good for Germany, but since we are such a large county (size and population wise) what works for Germany may not nessesarely work for the US. I know those on the left love to point to Europe so I will do the same.

England has embraced the green energy national conversation and now they are looking to use more fossil fuels for energy due to such high costs.

"The problems are these. Europe’s high subsidies for renewables to meet climate change targets, coupled with the switch to gas, which is expensive to import, are damaging energy-intensive manufacturers, who between them employ some 30 million people. Nuclear power has either been blocked, as in Germany, or delayed, as in the UK, and the take-up of shale has been painfully slow. In America, by contrast, the shale revolution has seen energy prices tumble, making industry more profitable and putting extra money into the pockets of consumers – so far, $1,300 a year for every American, expected to rise to $4,000 by 2015."

Oh, and here is a nice little comment regarding Germany ;)

"Perversely, the Germans – who have turned their backs on nuclear power and face an even bigger cost and supply crisis – are building new coal plants. If we want to keep the lights on we would be well advised to keep our coal power stations going and risk the penalties. We could even re-open mothballed mines, which can be profitable once more."

Britain’s energy crisis is about to boil over - Telegraph
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,722
NET NEUTRAL CARBON USE TECHNOLOGIES.

LOL.

Why not go net negative to undo the "harm" done and the fact we are in a warming period? Is it inconceivable to imagine a time in the not too distant future when we develop the technology to sink carbon and whatever other pollutant du jour comes across Al Gore's desk?

And what is wrong with expending resources to adapt to a changing environment? If my retirement investments are on an insufficient path to support my current lifestyle I have two choices 1)increase my current earnings to save more and work longer, 2) lower my cost of living currently and in retirement. Your solutions seem to hinge one #2, I think #1 is more realistic given the mentality of the human race AND provides the opportunity to influence the future from a position of power rather than subservience.

If you feel so strongly I suggest you rent rather than own in Charleston, SC. I am looking forward to Raleigh becoming a beach front community.

LED bulbs everywhere for me, it is a convenience and cost savings thing. I moved to live close to work and school so we drive half as much or less than we did a year ago, waste of time and money was incredible. And I have looked into solar and geothermal for my home. Reduced dependence on the grid given a high likelihood of eventually having big problems with a hurricane or ice storm are factors that would make me pay a premium. City codes, HOA architectural committees and general lack of good information get in the way. Solar is a joke since you need batteries to have any sort of grid independence and the efficiency falls off pretty well after a few years.

Geothermal is a great example, lower your A/C costs by 80% and long term maintenance are a fraction of the cost as well. If all the efforts on solar were put into geothermal we would have huge reductions in consumption. New home construction could use this pretty cost effectively but home builders aren't serious about anything but granite.
 
Top