Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
The government and the people are not indistiguishable. People ARE the government and have the capability of changing the direction in which the country moves.
That's such a sweet sentiment. Will you bring me some fairy dust on your way back from Unicorn Land? There's a LOT of damage politicians have inflicted and will continue to inflict on the American people in the two years in between elections. I'd just as soon give them as little power as possible. If "the people are the government," then why the hell do we need such a large government? The people, left alone, should be able to (more or less) govern themselves.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
That's such a sweet sentiment. Will you bring me some fairy dust on your way back from Unicorn Land? There's a LOT of damage politicians have inflicted and will continue to inflict on the American people in the two years in between elections. I'd just as soon give them as little power as possible. If "the people are the government," then why the hell do we need such a large government? The people, left alone, should be able to (more or less) govern themselves.

Who is it you think the representatives are representing? Who elects them? If they are corrupt, voters have the power to vote them out. You act as if that is a fantasy. It IS our system. The extent to which the people believe the bullshit that they hear on FOX News and MSNBC and the degree to which it makes them pawns to the powerful -- whether those in elected positions or in industry is the problem, it seems. Apathy and blindness are bigger problems to me than the big, bad government.
 

Bluto

Well-known member
Messages
8,146
Reaction score
3,979
That's such a sweet sentiment. Will you bring me some fairy dust on your way back from Unicorn Land? There's a LOT of damage politicians have inflicted and will continue to inflict on the American people in the two years in between elections. I'd just as soon give them as little power as possible. If "the people are the government," then why the hell do we need such a large government? The people, left alone, should be able to (more or less) govern themselves.

Yeah, your quote seems to ignore how power manifests itself and what scale of social organization is needed for a society to function in a globalized world. The biggest issue I have with libertarian thought in general and the rhetoric from most libertarians in the US is they tend to ignore the entire discipline of sociology, how society's organize themselves and why. Instead most present the myth (ie Unicorn Land) of the self sufficient individual with no need for and therefore no connection to society at large. Your response also begs the question at what level do you "leave the people alone"? Lots of dipshits cry about the "tyranny" of their public works department when they have to build using the uniform building code.
 
C

Cackalacky

Guest
Translation: "I don't give a shit if anyone else was harmed by this law. It didn't harm ME so fuck you."

My premiums went from $33 per week to $85 per week for worse coverage. $3,000 a year is real money to me any my family.

That's not what I said at all. That was specific to my work place. Let's maintain the context here please. Sorry to her about your experience.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Yeah, your quote seems to ignore how power manifests itself and what scale of social organization is needed for a society to function in a globalized world. The biggest issue I have with libertarian thought in general and the rhetoric from most libertarians in the US is they tend to ignore the entire discipline of sociology, how society's organize themselves and why. Instead most present the myth (ie Unicorn Land) of the self sufficient individual with no need for and therefore no connection to society at large. Your response also begs the question at what level do you "leave the people alone"? Lots of dipshits cry about the "tyranny" of their public works department when they have to build using the uniform building code.
You're misrepresenting libertarianism. Libertarians do not envision an "every man for himself" Hobbesian state of nature. Just because individuals are FREE to be left alone, doesn't mean they're going to sell everything and go live in a cabin surrounded by land mines. Individuals can, will, and should form groups to pursue common interests as long as membership in those groups is based on voluntary action on the part of the individual.

For example, libertarians could form trade groups or labor unions, so long as membership was based on a voluntary act of will without coercion from the government. Libertarians don't prefer a disconnected society where the people act on their own, but want the odd individual who chooses to live that way to be allowed to do so.

I agree that "social organization" is necessary, but I reject the notion that the only way (or even a particularly effective way) to achieve social organization is a top-down governmental approach. The organization produced from the grassroots is generally much more efficient and in tune with the needs of the people than systems delegated from Washington, DC.

The "self sufficient individual with no need for and therefore no connection to society at large" is a bullshit straw man. Libertarianism is BUILT upon free and voluntary exchanges with other individuals. I believe Aristotle pointed out that a man who CANNOT live in society is a beast, while a man who does not NEED to live in society is a god. The fundamental flaw of your criticism of libertarianism is that you equate "society" with "government." "Man needs society, therefore man needs government." Wrong. Social organization is absolutely necessary under libertarianism, but that doesn't mean it needs to come from the Federal Government.

It's also important to recognize that libertarianism has room under its umbrella for a spectrum of beliefs. The "most extreme" would probably be the anarchists or anarcho-capitalists that believe all government authority to be illegitimate. Those are often the loudest of the libertarians and the ones that give liberarianism a bad name, but they are not the majority. Many libertarians accept federalism and acknowledge that local, state, and federal governments do have legitimate functions in society. For example, I have no problem with local building codes, state roads, or a national military. The key is to keep as much power local as possible. "One-size-fits-all" governance is risky at best because a California senator in Washington has no idea how to best address the issues faced by the citizens of Boise, Idaho.
 

chicago51

Well-known member
Messages
3,658
Reaction score
387
Translation: "I don't give a shit if anyone else was harmed by this law. It didn't harm ME so fuck you."

My premiums went from $33 per week to $85 per week for worse coverage. $3,000 a year is real money to me any my family.

Premiums weren't going up before the ACA?

The ACA had alot of garbage corporatism in it but it shouldn't be used as a cop out for every single premium increase. We've had insurance premiums growth out pace economic growth since the 70s.

If your coverage got worse I that probably has more to with your employer than the ACA. One of the chief complaints of Obamacare is that it forced insurance companies to cover more things not less; including covering stuff alot of people don't want. Hence why so many people couldn't keep their plans because the plans either did not cover very much and/or had $10000 deductibles (ACA max is now $6,000).
 
Last edited:

DSully1995

New member
Messages
1,103
Reaction score
74
Premiums weren't going up before the ACA?

The ACA had alot of garbage corporatism in it but it shouldn't be used as a cop out for every single premium increase. We've had insurance premiums growth out pace economic growth since the 70s.

If your coverage got worse I that probably has more to with your employer than the ACA. One of the chief complaints of Obamacare is that it forced insurance companies to cover more things not less; including covering stuff alot of people don't want. Hence why so many people couldn't keep their plans because the plans either did not cover very much and/or had $10000 deductibles (ACA max is now $6,000).

How many examples of corporatism will it take to realize it will always be so? How many time do we have to be fooled by "change" before we smarten up and see that this is the way government is and will be?
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
There was a fantastic series on the corporate titans of the guilded age on the History Channel last year. I was just talking about this series with a co-worker and thought I'd pass it on to you guys. I'd be interested to hear if any of you have watched it before.

Watch The Men Who Built America Full Episodes & Videos Online - HISTORY.com

For those who haven't, it is a docu-drama about Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford and JP Morgan.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,721
Premiums weren't going up before the ACA?

The ACA had alot of garbage corporatism in it but it shouldn't be used as a cop out for every single premium increase. We've had insurance premiums growth out pace economic growth since the 70s.

If your coverage got worse I that probably has more to with your employer than the ACA. One of the chief complaints of Obamacare is that it forced insurance companies to cover more things not less; including covering stuff alot of people don't want. Hence why so many people couldn't keep their plans because the plans either did not cover very much and/or had $10000 deductibles (ACA max is now $6,000).

I actually want a $10,000 deductible plan now that I have built up my HSA account. Of course I can't make a single change to my coverage or I lose grandfather status. Between that and the maternity rider we no longer need my monthly premium is about double what it would otherwise be. Of course, I think insurance should insure against catastrophic loss first and provide access to better care. Unfortunately, Obama is making me buy a bunch of crap I don't want or need.

Oh, and a $10,000 deductible plan you can afford is better than a $6000 deductible plan you can't afford. If nothing else, the buying power of an insurance plan gets you negotiated rates for services that save you tons of money. Double whammy for the uninsured, just ask anyone who ever compared the rate actually paid versus that billed for just about any procedure.
 

potownhero

New member
Messages
164
Reaction score
34
Well this is what happens when insurance companies, healthcare professionals, and the healthcare industrial complex get to write the bill to solve the problem they started. Make no mistake premiums skyrocketed in the 2000s, people who made the premiums on a regular basis sometimes got sick and lost coverage because lifetime limits, those with pre existing conditions couldn't get coverage. No excuse as a lot the bill sucks.
So you would agree that this Dem Party written bill will take from the public and enrich the industry they're putting their noses into? Hmm? Collaboration between gov't and industry - and we the people have no choice; comply or be punished (by the government).

Anyway about trusting government. Have you taken a moment to step away from the talking points to figure out why the government became corrupt in the first place.
Because it is a government of men and men still aren't angels.

Are all governments just bond to become corrupt? Were the founders wrong taking a chance a radical idea of the like democracy because if you saying the concept and institution of government is bad aren't you in effect saying American concept was bad?

Nice strawman ...just because a concept isn't perfect - doesn't mean that its not the best option or bad.

and "A REPUBLIC, madam, if you can keep it..."

The founders were well enough informed to know that history seemed to show that ruling entities that endured over time evolved towards greater power, gradually increasing control over their nation’s citizens. They were largely motivated by the creation of a republic that would not descend into a state of tyranny—a fate that history seemed to show was in the end, inevitable.

"Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." --Thomas Jefferson
 

Rhode Irish

Semi-retired
Messages
7,057
Reaction score
900
Just going to leave this here (re: Ryan's compassionate plea that we end freaking school lunches for poor children(!))

te0lcyvm0znc6hkqip0a.gif


Seriously, who is against feeding hungry kids?

OK, I'm back out of this thread now. Carry on.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
Just going to leave this here (re: Ryan's compassionate plea that we end freaking school lunches for poor children(!))

Seriously, who is against feeding hungry kids?

OK, I'm back out of this thread now. Carry on.
You're smarter than that and you've proven it in other threads but you either posted without thinking or you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

Your logic:

1) If you are against the federal government feeding hungry kids, you're against feeding hungry kids.
2) Paul Ryan is against the federal government feeding hungry kids.
C) Therefore, Paul Ryan is against feeding hungry kids.

You don't see how premise 1 is complete bullshit? The federal government is not the only means by which hungry kids get fed. Being against the government doing XYZ IS NOT THE SAME as saying that XYZ should never get done
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,721
Biden the consummate professional. Perfect visual for why middle ground is so hard to come by with these tools in charge.

Not sure why school lunches is a federal issue. If ever there were a local issue I would think that is it.
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,721
Righteous indignation pretty much describes Biden's response to anything he doesn't agree with or understand. Which is why he reacts that way so much, he doesn't understand much of anything.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
You're smarter than that and you've proven it in other threads but you either posted without thinking or you're being intellectually dishonest on purpose.

Your logic:

1) If you are against the federal government feeding hungry kids, you're against feeding hungry kids.
2) Paul Ryan is against the federal government feeding hungry kids.
C) Therefore, Paul Ryan is against feeding hungry kids.

You don't see how premise 1 is complete bullshit? The federal government is not the only means by which hungry kids get fed. Being against the government doing XYZ IS NOT THE SAME as saying that XYZ should never get done

So, who is going to feed them if the government just walks away?
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
So, who is going to feed them if the government just walks away?
That's ANOTHER false equivalency. "Federal government" DOES NOT EQUAL "government."

I'm A-okay with states and municipalities running subsidized school lunch programs. They're far more efficient when managed at the local level. Bonus: IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
That's ANOTHER false equivalency. "Federal government" DOES NOT EQUAL "government."

I'm A-okay with states and municipalities running subsidized school lunch programs. They're far more efficient when managed at the local level. Bonus: IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL.

State and local lunch programs are often funded by federal dollars. Should those dollars stop flowing? What happens then?
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
Messages
8,622
Reaction score
2,721
State and local lunch programs are often funded by federal dollars. Should those dollars stop flowing? What happens then?

You are right, if they pull the federal dollars they should create an unfunded mandate to ensure no children starve. God knows without DC stepping in we would all let our neighbor starve to death.
 

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
You are right, if they pull the federal dollars they should create an unfunded mandate to ensure no children starve. God knows without DC stepping in we would all let our neighbor starve to death.

You don't think that there was a reason that the fed stepped in in the first place? Think it through. I'm not sure I can think of a federal program that was started with bad intentions or just because there was some extra money laying around. I suspect that feeding kids in school has as much to do with maximizing the investment made in the students' education as it does to filling their bellies. A kid who doesn't know where his next meal is coming from has bigger things on his mind than the algebra quiz on Tuesday.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
State and local lunch programs are often funded by federal dollars. Should those dollars stop flowing? What happens then?
To be clear, this is your preferred system.

yDx3wB2.png


The federal government is nothing but a monstrous, inefficient middle-man. It takes the federal government $1.00 to do $0.44 worth of good. That's 54% of tax revenue that's wasted on bullshit and bureaucrats. If we eliminated the programs that are unnecessary (and unconstitutional) at the Federal level, we'd solve the so-called "revenue" problem and people would have significantly more disposable income. A BIG federal tax cut and a SMALL state tax increase results in more disposable income for families while maintaining the same level or better of social programs.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
You don't think that there was a reason that the fed stepped in in the first place? Think it through. I'm not sure I can think of a federal program that was started with bad intentions or just because there was some extra money laying around. I suspect that feeding kids in school has as much to do with maximizing the investment made in the students' education as it does to filling their bellies. A kid who doesn't know where his next meal is coming from has bigger things on his mind than the algebra quiz on Tuesday.
You must live around some really shitty people if you honestly think kids would starve without the Federal Free Lunch program.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
You must live around some really shitty people if you honestly think kids would starve without the Federal Free Lunch program.

This is why the GOP is dead in the water. Everyone outside of Bullshit Mountain looks around and sees 10000000000000 things more important (to cut/fix) than school lunches for the poor.
 
Last edited:

GoIrish41

Paterfamilius
Messages
9,929
Reaction score
2,119
To be clear, this is your preferred system.

yDx3wB2.png


The federal government is nothing but a monstrous, inefficient middle-man. It takes the federal government $1.00 to do $0.44 worth of good. That's 54% of tax revenue that's wasted on bullshit and bureaucrats. If we eliminated the programs that are unnecessary (and unconstitutional) at the Federal level, we'd solve the so-called "revenue" problem and people would have significantly more disposable income. A BIG federal tax cut and a SMALL state tax increase results in more disposable income for families while maintaining the same level or better of social programs.

I guess I'd prefer the system you depicted to one where kids are starving and unable to learn anything in the multi-million dollar schools we built to educate them. Nobody is suggesting that there isn't inefficiency in the system ... the question is who is going to pick up the tab to make up for the money that currently does go to feed poor kids? The states? How much do you think Republican-dominated state houses in states like Alabama, Texas, Mississippi and Louisiana are going to raise taxes to fill the void? Will you bring me some fairy dust on your way back from Unicorn Land?
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
You don't think that there was a reason that the fed stepped in in the first place? Think it through. I'm not sure I can think of a federal program that was started with bad intentions or just because there was some extra money laying around. I suspect that feeding kids in school has as much to do with maximizing the investment made in the students' education as it does to filling their bellies. A kid who doesn't know where his next meal is coming from has bigger things on his mind than the algebra quiz on Tuesday.

If I remember correctly, it started because right before World War II, when the US was drafting people to prepare for the obvious, something like 40% of the people the Army was drafting qualified for a level of malnourishment.
 

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I guess I'd prefer the system you depicted to one where kids are starving and unable to learn anything in the multi-million dollar schools we built to educate them. Nobody is suggesting that there isn't inefficiency in the system ... the question is who is going to pick up the tab to make up for the money that currently does go to feed poor kids? The states? How much do you think Republican-dominated state houses in states like Alabama, Texas, Mississippi and Louisiana are going to raise taxes to fill the void? Will you bring me some fairy dust on your way back from Unicorn Land?

THE PEOPLE! The people at my church who fill backpacks full of food to make sure that poor kids have meals for breakfast, dinner, and on the weekends, not just at school. The people at my work who literally donate warehouses full of school supplies, Christmas gifts, and food for the poor people in our communities. Do you really have so little faith in humanity? This isn't even political any more. It makes me sad that you HONESTLY think kids would starve if charity weren't mandated by politicians.
 
Top