Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

phgreek

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that video is/will be Romneys Waterloo.
talk about a self inflcted wound.
ouch.

...was sitting here with my guns and bibles (clutching them)...man the idiot that said that guns and bibles thing...he got his Arse kicked...WAIT A MINUTE!!!

this thread...it solved a life mystery for me...its like watching a family put the letter to publisher's clearing house in the mail, and then run out and buy a yacht ...I never knew how someone got there...I get it now!

If BO wins I think it would kinda be an historic win given the economy and unemployment...but hey, enjoy the Yacht fellas....(;
 

jason_h537

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I can agree with this. Or, at least significantly reduce the income tax and make it a flat rate.

I also think we need to incentivize production in our own country... whether that means higher fees/taxes on imports or some sort of tax break for manufacturing in the US.

Here is my issue with the flat rate. So everyone pays the same rate, no exceptions. So do retirees have to pay taxes on social security? Should veteran have to pay for their VA benefits? If not, are they the only exceptions?

Cutting employment taxes would make it a lot cheaper to hire people, that's for sure.

But the way the Fed's going, our inflation is going to far outpace any increases in production anyway...And the one commodity that benefits most (oil) is the one thing we don't really make.

Another question that business owners may be able to help me with. So cutting employment taxes will make it easier to hire people, but if your business isn't making more money to continue to pay new employees, does it matter how much easier it is to hire someone? That is what I don't get. I keep hearing more tax cuts for businesses will encourage more hiring, but I don't see how you can afford to continue to pay new employees on tax cuts alone. Hopefully that makes sense to someone.
 
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connor_in

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You completely missed the point of why his comments were contraversial. It's not that he said that too much of our country is dependent on aid, it was that he said that those people don't vote for him. So in turn, it's not his job to care about them.

Pretty startling to hear a guy that has been labeled to only want to help the rich literally say it himself.

I'm guessing that he wasn't thrilled about the latino comments to come out either. It was pretty much the only demographic that people thought he could make late inroads in, but that ship has now sailed.

Being that Romney's current job is running for president (not being president) if a certain group is extremely unlikely to vote for him why should he care to spend too much time on them? As a business man he understands he needs to use the resources available to him wisely/efficently.

Speaking of being president...
A3HlinACMAAWBnI.jpg
 

woolybug25

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...was sitting here with my guns and bibles (clutching them)...man the idiot that said that guns and bibles thing...he got his Arse kicked...WAIT A MINUTE!!!


You dudes still aren't getting it. Obama stated in his acceptance speech that he knows that almost half the country voted against him. But he wanted them to know that he hears them, that he will work for them just as hard as the rest of the people that did vote for him.

Romney on the other hand, clearly stated that those that don't vote for him are not only lazy and dependant, but also not his problem to worry about.

It's much different.
 

woolybug25

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Being that Romney's current job is running for president (not being president) if a certain group is extremely unlikely to vote for him why should he care to spend too much time on them? As a business man he understands he needs to use the resources available to him wisely/efficently.

Speaking of being president...

He should care about them because they are American citizens. If it's "not his job to worry about them", then how are we supposed to expect this corporate vampire... oops... I mean venture capitalist to give a $hit about anybody in the middle class or lower (the majority of our country) as a president?
 

RDU Irish

Catholics vs. Cousins
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I heard Romney wanted to line up all poor people and shoot them and Obama wants to do the same but for rich people. Since I hate both the rich and poor I really don't know who to vote for?
 
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Bogtrotter07

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...was sitting here with my guns and bibles (clutching them)...man the idiot that said that guns and bibles thing...he got his Arse kicked...WAIT A MINUTE!!!

this thread...it solved a life mystery for me...its like watching a family put the letter to publisher's clearing house in the mail, and then run out and buy a yacht ...I never knew how someone got there...I get it now!

If BO wins I think it would kinda be an historic win given the economy and unemployment...but hey, enjoy the Yacht fellas....(;

PH, a chara,

I been thinking about this and talking with some really smart people. History almost doesn't apply to this situation; at least not the way most want to apply it. In our current situation, a single group within one party has been in charge all but 12 years of the last 32. They have set finacial policy. During a single 8 year run, they have implemented much of the policy that led to the crash of 2008. What makes this time unique, is that these people were never fired. In the past, the party that screwed the pooch, has either had a blood-bath, house cleansing, or so much time has elapsed that the varmits died or went senile. Look at every major economic downturn, (TR counts as a change because he was such an outsider). This time the Republicans are running the poster boy for the bad economic policy at the candidate. Coupled with the fact that MR could not find a way to communicate himself as anything less than a sexist, racist, elitist if his life depended upon it, and I don't think that you have to worry about the talking heads, conventional or historical political wisdom, this cycle.


A3HlinACMAAWBnI.jpg


Here is the perfect example. Most of the negatives on this list fall under the Clinton explanation for the Republicans strategy this cycle.


Beir bua agus beannacht,

Grehar the Bogtrotter
 
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Polish Leppy 22

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it's immoral that we have one half of the country paying for the other half and nothing AT ALL is demander of the recipient class. and all this comes before illegal immigrants and their benefits (education, healthcare, etc)
 

BobD

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The Democrats best weapon against the Republicans........other Republicans.

The Republicans have no choice but to get real dirty in October. Thats when they'll cause the most damage to themselves.
 

95NDAlumNM

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it's immoral that we have one half of the country paying for the other half and nothing AT ALL is demander of the recipient class. and all this comes before illegal immigrants and their benefits (education, healthcare, etc)

Yeah those dam retired people on social security why don't they get off their asses and do something. And those students, just cause their trying to get an education does not mean that they shouldn't be paying 20% in federal income taxes even if they did not have any income. How about that lazy dishwasher at my favorite restaurant. Works 40 hours a week and makes 16,000 a year. Why doesn't he pay 3 grand a year in federal income taxes. What they hell is becoming of america.
 

IrishJayhawk

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The whole list is just conflation.

No, but many of the items are directly attributable to the loss of revenue due to the Bush tax cuts and the worst economic collapse in about 70 years. Cutting spending to account for those losses would have put us in a deep depression.
 

ab2cmiller

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All of them are wrong.

Your throwing crap against the wall and hoping that it will stick. If they are wrong, what is the right answer?

The list is records that have been set under Obama's watch, it's not even necessarily what the amounts are at this moment in time. For example, #9 is a record that was set under Obama's watch back in 2009. As Houstonian correctly pointed out, that number is now closer to 46%.
 

connor_in

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He should care about them because they are American citizens. If it's "not his job to worry about them", then how are we supposed to expect this corporate vampire... oops... I mean venture capitalist to give a $hit about anybody in the middle class or lower (the majority of our country) as a president?

I spelled this out in the previous post. If & When he IS the president then it will be his job to worry about them and he will. Do you think Obama really worries about TX in his campaign or any other deeply red state? How much money is the campaign spending, how many visits is he making to the heart of Republican areas during this run up to the election?

BTW if President Redistribution...oops...I mean Obama wins re-election, statistically that is the norm...If Romney wins it is an upset. So the fact that the polls are as close as they are (and mind which polls you pay attention to and their methodologies) says more about Obama than Romney
 

ab2cmiller

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Yeah those dam retired people on social security why don't they get off their asses and do something. And those students, just cause their trying to get an education does not mean that they shouldn't be paying 20% in federal income taxes even if they did not have any income. How about that lazy dishwasher at my favorite restaurant. Works 40 hours a week and makes 16,000 a year. Why doesn't he pay 3 grand a year in federal income taxes. What they hell is becoming of america.

You give great examples of people who legitimately should not be paying taxes. Most people recognize that there is a certain segment of the population that truly can't afford to pay taxes and shouldn't pay taxes. However having close to 50% of the population not paying taxes, that is a recipe for disaster.

There are certainly some portion of that 46% that should be paying something. For example a Married couple with 4 kids making $65,000 a year will pay nothing. This is primarily due to the child tax credits that both parties supported. Obviously they aren't rich but they could certainly afford to pay something. The whole tax code needs to be reworked. There are simply to many loopholes and special interests involved in the tax code.
 

autry_denson

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Your throwing crap against the wall and hoping that it will stick. If they are wrong, what is the right answer?

The list is records that have been set under Obama's watch, it's not even necessarily what the amounts are at this moment in time. For example, #9 is a record that was set under Obama's watch back in 2009. As Houstonian correctly pointed out, that number is now closer to 46%.

This list is for people who don't think. My sense is that Bogtrotter would elaborate if it was worth doing so - this kind of stuff (which comes from both sides) is so simplistic it is not worth discussing.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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The whole list is just conflation.

In a manner of speaking yes. Obama was locked in to spending and slow growth as well as the bailouts because of the Bush administration policies, (and the resultant crash). What makes that conflation is saying "Obama Watch". Why didn't they say 2008 0r 2009 through 2011? Because whoever designed it wanted it to be provacative. Thus the conflation. I am just trying to point this stuff out to you, so you don't have to be another knee jerk, love muscle in America's body politic. Don't shoot the messenger.

Next point: Morality, and paying taxes. This point Romney made that evey one is talking about is the most effective propaganda in the world, and I can point out who is their bitches, right now. Yup, conflation rears it's ugly head again. Did you ever buy a car? Do you know how much traditionally goes in to style, and appeal, versus fuel efficiency and saftey? It is the same kind of racket.

When you talk about a family of five, making about 50K per year, you are talking about a wash with federal income tax. They would be on the list. But they pay payroll, state, local, excise, sales, ssi, medicare and every other tax. If they have kids and a mortgage, they do pretty good at the end of the year on their federal income tax owed.

Those that make less than 20K are a chunk of that group, and they have had a major reduction in what they have available to them. Before you all talk about the morality of them paying taxes, look at how hard they are working, live in their domiciles, and check their IQ's and mental, behavioral and physical health issues.

I have a vet I support that still is having a hard time sleeping inside. See his short term memory is shot, because of the piece of his jaw bone the was propelled through that part of his brain after the IED went off. He likes sleeping outside, because he finally admitted to me that he never forgets the stars. (I cried.)

Much of the rest is the elderly. Studies consistently show that 20 percent even with SSI and programs currently go hungry at some point during the week. Now I took care of my mother in the two years before she died. It would be acurate to characterize that she couldn't lift a can of soup to open it. But she never went without a meal. She died on Vetern's Day '10 just prior to her 93rd birthday; I still have family members that criticize me for moving in to take care of her. I suppose that they wanted to institutionalize her. I checked on the price for if she got worse. It was about 6.5K per month. I saved Medicare, because I wanted her to live in her own home. She made it all but the last few days when we moved her to Hospice . . .

So I think talking about the morality of these people paying taxes is conflation. If not it is socio-pathological thought at its most refined. Are there some people working the system? Undoubtedly. But saying their is widespread fraud, is like saying there is widespread voter fraud, it is more unsubstantiated inuendo; propaganda introduced to add to conflation. With conflation, justification of more robbery and mayhem.

Finally, as proof, imagine this: adjust the tax rates so that people at the bottom would pay taxes, lets say 20 %. In fact, let's make it a 20 % flat tax across the board, from the lowest to the highest, including the corporations. Who would pay the most in terms of raw dollars, and who would have the biggest increase. Figure it out. The results would absolutely shock you.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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No, but many of the items are directly attributable to the loss of revenue due to the Bush tax cuts and the worst economic collapse in about 70 years. Cutting spending to account for those losses would have put us in a deep depression.

So we all understand each other, your first word is no, meaning it is not conflation. But everything after that comma is proof that it is actually all conflation. So you said no, but you proved yes. AND that is how we have been brought up to be out of control of our government, and let a few run the many! It is so ironic that everyone got such a chuckle out of some of the "2008 Obama voters" not knowing simple political information. Myself included, most of us have no idea whether we are getting kissed first or not!
 
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95NDAlumNM

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You give great examples of people who legitimately should not be paying taxes. Most people recognize that there is a certain segment of the population that truly can't afford to pay taxes and shouldn't pay taxes. However having close to 50% of the population not paying taxes, that is a recipe for disaster.

There are certainly some portion of that 46% that should be paying something. For example a Married couple with 4 kids making $65,000 a year will pay nothing. This is primarily due to the child tax credits that both parties supported. Obviously they aren't rich but they could certainly afford to pay something. The whole tax code needs to be reworked. There are simply to many loopholes and special interests involved in the tax code.

Sure, so then why say 47% when that is made up of retired people on social security, and students, and people only making 16,000 and still paying payroll taxes. Why not say 20% (or whatever the real number is). Are they just playing to the stupid and ignorant? Does it not sound as good when you take out these groups? Or do they really believe that these people (retired people on social security, etc.) should be paying federal income tax?
 

ab2cmiller

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Sure, so then why say 47% when that is made up of retired people on social security, and students, and people only making 16,000 and still paying payroll taxes. Why not say 20% (or whatever the real number is). Are they just playing to the stupid and ignorant? Does it not sound as good when you take out these groups? Or do they really believe that these people (retired people on social security, etc.) should be paying federal income tax?

Obviously they are using the 47% figure for political effect. If they used 20% (for the smaller group that they are truly concerned about), nobody would even blink. Unfortunately all of politics is littered with things like this. Both sides citing stats that back their viewpoint and the the public is left to figure out which stats are the most applicable. Unfortunately most people don't make any attempt.
 

95NDAlumNM

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Obviously they are using the 47% figure for political effect. If they used 20% (for the smaller group that they are truly concerned about), nobody would even blink. Unfortunately all of politics is littered with things like this. Both sides citing stats that back their viewpoint and the the public is left to figure out which stats are the most applicable. Unfortunately most people don't make any attempt.

Agreed, this is for the ignorant and stupid. Hopefully, no one on here will fall for this :)
 

Irish Houstonian

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Obviously they are using the 47% figure for political effect. If they used 20% (for the smaller group that they are truly concerned about), nobody would even blink. Unfortunately all of politics is littered with things like this. Both sides citing stats that back their viewpoint and the the public is left to figure out which stats are the most applicable. Unfortunately most people don't make any attempt.

It's political effect, but it's also necessary to put the "tax cuts for the rich" class-warfare mantra in context.

By definition, a true "tax cut" can only go to 54% of the "richest" americans. If you weren't paying any, then it's a little naive to expect a windfall from a "tax cut". If you want more wealth redistributed your way, fine. But don't call it a "cut in your income taxes".

And, the top 1% pay 36% of the nation's taxes. So any regular tax cut is going to "go" to them disproportionately, since they were the ones paying in the first place.

Otherwise, the "tax cut for the rich" mantra creates a vicious cycle. Taxes go up, and wealth is redistributed, meaning that over time the precentage of Americans paying taxes gets smaller and smaller. But no tax cuts can ever happen, because they could only be given to the corresponding smaller and smaller group of Americans, making the cuts even less and less popular. Endless loop.
 

ab2cmiller

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It's political effect, but it's also necessary to put the "tax cuts for the rich" class-warfare mantra in context.

By definition, a true "tax cut" can only go to 54% of the "richest" americans. If you weren't paying any, then it's a little naive to expect a windfall from a "tax cut". If you want more wealth redistributed your way, fine. But don't call it a "cut in your income taxes".

And, the top 1% pay 36% of the nation's taxes. So any regular tax cut is going to "go" to them disproportionately, since they were the ones paying in the first place.

Otherwise, the "tax cut for the rich" mantra creates a vicious cycle. Taxes go up, and wealth is redistributed, meaning that over time the precentage of Americans paying taxes gets smaller and smaller. But no tax cuts can ever happen, because they could only be given to the corresponding smaller and smaller group of Americans, making the cuts even less and less popular. Endless loop.

Excellent points.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Excellent points.

And exactly what I addressed in my previous posts. This is why I brought the term conflation into the conversation. The top 1 % pay 36 % of the taxes. Do you want to guess what percent of the income they make? Hmmm?
 

RDU Irish

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^ I know...but I'm not telling. If one were so inclined they could read up on the topic right here:

Average America vs the One Percent - Forbes

72% of wealth controlled by the top 5%. $300K or so is the breakpoint for 1% income versus an Amecan average of $50K. Not sure if they are breaking that down per American or per household. Either way it seems the 1% earn about 14% of all wages (51K times 100 divided by 717K) yet pay 35% of all income taxes.


I will be the first to admit that ignoring FICA as a tax is disingenuous. FICA collections are on par with income tax collections which would almost cut in half the percentage of revenue collected from the 1% (35% on income is probably more like 20% overall). Still, paying 20% of taxes for 14% of the income doesn't seem to me like either side is playing the gimp roll here.

Note lumping of capital gains and dividends equally with productive wages conflates the argument dramatically.

DRINK
 
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