Political Correctness thread

[gkIrish]

I am not saying that.

What have you done today to help solve national problems? Perhaps this is his contribution. It got folks talking more about the topic.

Who is talking more about the topic??????

 

[IrishLax]

In some ways, the defining feature of professional sports in the US is the pageantry and the symbolism. Year in and year out we watch the same games over and over. We infuse them with meaning by placing great weight in the symbols that surround the games: the national anthem, the jerseys, the trophies, etc... Somebody turning that symbolism on its head to express a disfavored view should not simply be tolerated- it should be expected.

Why? Why should it be "tolerated" by people that vehemently disagree with an ill-conceived and poorly justified political statement?

Like don't get me wrong: I wore the flag of our country on my sleeve in a war zone. The symbolism attached to the flag and the anthem means a lot to me. I don't agree *at all* with Kaepernick's comparison of Old Glory to the flag flown by traitor slaveholders. But I don't expect him to be a one man think tank. He's famous because symbolism. He used symbolism to make a point. I don't entirely agree with the point, but I don't begrudge the man for taking advantage of the platform he has to express a message that's important to him.

I get what you're saying and I don't begrudge him taking a stand. I tried to contrast it with Dwayne Wade/Carmelo Anthony earlier because I think that illustrates how different "taking a stand" can be for different people.

The former I think is appropriate, the latter with Kaepernick I think was not. One is trying to communicate a message through a platform, the other is trying to slap everyone in the face for attention to the message. When you slap everyone in the face, I expect you to:
1) Not say stupid shit like Confederate States == the country that sacrificed hundreds of thousands of lives over the governmental right and moral question of slavery.
2) When someone says "you have our attention, what specifically do you want to fix and how?" for him to have a clear answer thought out. I don't think that's asking too much.

 

[IrishBroker]

I am not saying that.

What have you done today to help solve national problems? Perhaps this is his contribution. It got folks talking more about the topic.

I'm not the one complaining.

But, I actually get out and donate time to local food kitchens and habitat for humanity if you must know. In fact, my company donates one entire day a month of man hours to local charities..next week we'll be at the Salvation Army of Houston.

I think I know where you are coming from, but simply complaining about a problem without having any solutions, is pointless.

"Getting the conversation started" is overrated.


I like what Melo is doing...meeting with community leaders and police and brining the community together. Great direction he's taking it.

 

[IrishLax]

To draw an IE comparison... I appreciate 41 and Syria because they make thoughtful arguments. I don't appreciate Balki making ridiculous, ill-supported statements about Cam Newton in the other thread.

Execution matters. If he sat for the National Anthem, and then in his 18 minute presser made a bunch of cogent arguments I'd respect his stance. But so much of what he has said on Twitter and said after the fact is either 1) inaccurate or other BS 2) illogical 3) just stupid unsupported opinion.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Was ESPN not talking about race prior to this? That's really what we are talking about, right?

Literally no one is talking about race right now. Everyone is talking about whether what he did was disrespectful or not.

Disagree. I've seen some interesting pieces come out of this, and I've seen it being talked about in an underlying issues type way on morning TV.

e.g.

Slavery and the National Anthem: The Surprising History Behind Colin Kaepernick’s Protest | FOX40

Kaepernick is asking for justice, not peace — The Undefeated

Colin Kaepernick did something controversial, but it was not un-American - NFL

To varying degrees those pieces all address the underlying issues Kaepernick at least implicitly raised through his actions.

 

[military_irish]

I have absolutely no issue with with Kap sitting during the national anthem. This coming from a person that faught for him to have that right. Do I agree? Of course not, I feel it's disrespectful. But I'd be a hypocrite to fight for freedom then hate someone for acting on that right.

The only issue I'll have, is if that is all he does for the cause for which he is supposedly "fighting" for. Is if that's all he does. Sitting during the national anthem will fix nothing and as of now he isn't even bringing attention to the issue but to himself.

In a week once college football is in full swing and then when the NFL season starts this whole issue will be put on the back burner unless he actually does more to help the citizens which he feels are oppressed.

 

[IrishinSyria]

To draw an IE comparison... I appreciate 41 and Syria because they make thoughtful arguments. I don't appreciate Balki making ridiculous, ill-supported statements about Cam Newton in the other thread.

Execution matters. If he sat for the National Anthem, and then in his 18 minute presser made a bunch of cogent arguments I'd respect his stance. But so much of what he has said on Twitter and said after the fact is either 1) inaccurate or other BS 2) illogical 3) just stupid unsupported opinion.

Yeah, I think its totally fair to criticize him on substance and delivery. But I wouldn't just brush off everything he says because of this.

At the end of the day, I really do think that sports is a national safe zone where we put aside political differences and adopt a super rah-rah vanilla patriotism. He intruded on that zone, and it's uncomfortable. I don't mind people engaging (criticizing) his arguments, I do mind people lashing out at him personally. Feels too much like "know your place".

 

[IrishinSyria]

And to be clear, I almost never engage with people on IE who I don't think are worth engaging. So to IrishBroker and IrishLax and anyone else in this thread who I've responded to/disagreed with, I most certainly am not saying that you are the ones with reactions that bother me.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Interestingly, Kaepernick wasn't protesting or "drawing attention" to the issue when he was a starter and the center of attention. The man has every right to speak out about problems and attempt to effect change. His decision to do so in a manner that was insulting and disrespectful to most others was stupid and counterproductive. This was more about drawing attention to himself and showing he's "down with the cause" than anything else. He wasn't speaking out and doing anything to better the situation when he was a star and his platform was much, much larger.

 

[IrishBroker]

Interestingly, Kaepernick wasn't protesting or "drawing attention" to the issue when he was a starter and the center of attention. The man has every right to speak out about problems and attempt to effect change. His decision to do so in a manner that was insulting and disrespectful to most others was stupid and counterproductive. This was more about drawing attention to himself and showing he's "down with the cause" than anything else. He wasn't speaking out and doing anything to better the situation when he was a star and his platform was much, much larger.

Brilliant point.

 

[IrishLax]

On the lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner... No refuge could save the hireling and slave, From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave"... am I the only one that thinks in context it's quite obviously a nod to the fact that the British hired mercs and conscripted others to fight their battles? And not... as it's stretched in the article... to be "taking pleasure in deaths of freed slaves?"

In the British empire, Africans weren't the only slaves. They had thousands and thousands of Irish slaves, Indian slaves, etc. In fact, white slaves outnumbered African slaves in the colonies for many years.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Interestingly, Kaepernick wasn't protesting or "drawing attention" to the issue when he was a starter and the center of attention. The man has every right to speak out about problems and attempt to effect change. His decision to do so in a manner that was insulting and disrespectful to most others was stupid and counterproductive. This was more about drawing attention to himself and showing he's "down with the cause" than anything else. He wasn't speaking out and doing anything to better the situation when he was a star and his platform was much, much larger.

Hasn't he been tweeting about racial issues for a while?

Also, the timing can be explained equally well by the growing reach of the BLM movement and the continuing stream of examples of its urgency (at least to people who are sympathetic to it).

I think it's probably some combination of both- he had less to lose, less responsibility to act as a leader on the field, and felt that the issue was more urgent than before.

I'm definitely not defending him as the perfect spokesman though.

 

[gkIrish]

Disagree. I've seen some interesting pieces come out of this, and I've seen it being talked about in an underlying issues type way on morning TV.

e.g.

Slavery and the National Anthem: The Surprising History Behind Colin Kaepernick’s Protest | FOX40

Kaepernick is asking for justice, not peace — The Undefeated

Colin Kaepernick did something controversial, but it was not un-American - NFL

To varying degrees those pieces all address the underlying issues Kaepernick at least implicitly raised through his actions.

Literally none of those articles say anything about how to fix any of the underlying issues. The first article is trying to get us to stop singing the National Anthem because the lyrics we specifically don't sing are about slavery. Cool. The same arguments are made against George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. It's just ignorant.

The Undefeated was literally started to write about sports and race. Him doing this did not cause them to start talking about it.

All the final article does is what I have been saying. Talk about whether what he did was okay or not. It's not talking about the underlying issues.

They mention the underlying issues but sure as hell aren't doing anything to advance them.

Regardless, my point is that you and me and our friends are not talking about the underlying issues more because of this. We are talking about his right to do it and whether it was okay to do it. That's why I say he has hijacked everything the same way people hijack threads.

 

[kmoose]

Slavery and the National Anthem: The Surprising History Behind Colin Kaepernick’s Protest | FOX40



Obviously, Kaepernick's no Robinson, but the sentiment's not new.

In some ways, the defining feature of professional sports in the US is the pageantry and the symbolism. Year in and year out we watch the same games over and over. We infuse them with meaning by placing great weight in the symbols that surround the games: the national anthem, the jerseys, the trophies, etc... Somebody turning that symbolism on its head to express a disfavored view should not simply be tolerated- it should be expected.

Like don't get me wrong: I wore the flag of our country on my sleeve in a war zone. The symbolism attached to the flag and the anthem means a lot to me. I don't agree *at all* with Kaepernick's comparison of Old Glory to the flag flown by traitor slaveholders. But I don't expect him to be a one man think tank. He's famous because symbolism. He used symbolism to make a point. I don't entirely agree with the point, but I don't begrudge the man for taking advantage of the platform he has to express a message that's important to him.

But message does matter, I think. What is Kap's message? That Black people are oppressed in this country.

-- There's a Black guy living at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, in Washington, DC; is he oppressed?

-- Is Oprah oppressed?

-- The CEO of Xerox (a Fortune 100 company) is Black; is she oppressed?

-- 4 Black guys who never even sang rock and roll were just inducted into the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame; are they oppressed?

-- There is a Black guy on the United States Supreme Court; is he oppressed?

What is evident, is that poor people are oppressed in the United States. Does that disproportionately affect Black people? The statistics say so. In 2014, the poverty rate amongst Blacks was 26.2%, compared to 11.2% for Whites. But is this a sign of oppression? I don't think so, especially when you take into account that the poverty rate for Blacks in 1959 was over 50%. Since 1959, we have halved the rate of poverty amongst Blacks. Now, given the prison figures and the single parent rates amongst Blacks, this decline was obviously not tied to the Black Community deciding that enough was enough, and banding together to help each other out and raise themselves out of poverty. So they had to have a lot of outside help, right? Does that sound like oppression to you? There have been many injustices inflicted on Blacks over the history of this country. And White people have to recognize that. But, by the same token, Blacks have to accept that a LOT of White people have helped them out, even at the cost of their own lives. Quit placing the blame on every White person in the country, by disrespecting the flag. If you want to do that, then you better have something better than "Blacks are oppressed"........ not "were"............. "are".

 

[IrishLax]

Hasn't he been tweeting about racial issues for a while?

Also, the timing can be explained equally well by the growing reach of the BLM movement and the continuing stream of examples of its urgency (at least to people who are sympathetic to it).

I think it's probably some combination of both- he had less to lose, less responsibility to act as a leader on the field, and felt that the issue was more urgent than before.

I'm definitely not defending him as the perfect spokesman though.

Yes, a very long time.

 

[IrishinSyria]

On the lyrics of the Star Spangled Banner... No refuge could save the hireling and slave, From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave"... am I the only one that thinks in context it's quite obviously a nod to the fact that the British hired mercs and conscripted others to fight their battles? And not... as it's stretched in the article... to be "taking pleasure in deaths of freed slaves?"

In the British empire, Africans weren't the only slaves. They had thousands and thousands of Irish slaves, Indian slaves, etc. In fact, white slaves outnumbered African slaves in the colonies for many years.

article goes on:

The mere mention of “slave” is not entirely remarkable; slavery was alive and well in the United States in 1814. Key himself owned slaves, was an anti-abolitionist and once called his African brethren “a distinct and inferior race of people.”

Some interpretations of these lyrics contend Key was in fact taking pleasure in the deaths of freed black slaves who had decided to fight with the British against the United States.

In order to bolster their numbers, British forces offered slaves their freedom in British territories if they would join their cause during the war. These black recruits formed the Colonial Marines, and were looked down upon by people like Key who saw their actions as treasonous.

I think its at least ambiguous between your explanation and this one, and I don't think they necessarily are incompatible with each other.

 

[IrishLax]

I think its at least ambiguous between your explanation and this one, and I don't think they necessarily are incompatible with each other.

Yeah, I read that. I thought it was a huge stretch... consider that only a couple thousand defecting African slaves (really, in the grand scheme of things, an insignificant number in the war) fought for the British... a couple thousand also fought for the United States.

So considering they were on both sides, how does the "interpretation" the article suggested really hold water? It seems like a pretty ridiculous stretch made by someone grasping for a point that isn't there, whereas the scorn for foreign mercs/hirelings/consripts/slaves in contrast to the "free and the brave" makes a ton of contextual sense.

 

[GoIrish41]

He has not initiated a conversation about a cause. The conversation you allege he has initiated was already happening.

He has initiated conversation about his actions. Completely different. No one is talking about the underlying issue more because of this. He has almost hijacked the conversation about the underlying issue.

Didn't he state his reason? Hasn't his reason been reported? Haven't people been talking about it? Haven't we been discussing it? We don't have to like what he did but there is little doubt that he succeeded in his attempt to draw attention to a cause. It seems his preference would be the conversation centered on systemic racism, but others would rather talk about his methods. Fair enough but I don't know the guy, so I'll take him at his word.

 

[IrishBroker]

article goes on:



I think its at least ambiguous between your explanation and this one, and I don't think they necessarily are incompatible with each other.

"Some interpretations of these lyrics contend Key was in fact taking pleasure in the deaths of freed black slaves who had decided to fight with the British against the United States."


Who is "some"?? I mean, that doesn't make it true.

 

[IrishBroker]

Yeah, I read that. I thought it was a huge stretch... consider that only a couple thousand defecting African slaves (really, in the grand scheme of things, an insignificant number in the war) fought for the British... a couple thousand also fought for the United States.

So considering they were on both sides, how does the "interpretation" the article suggested really hold water? It seems like a pretty ridiculous stretch made by someone grasping for a point that isn't there, whereas the scorn for foreign mercs/hirelings/consripts/slaves in contrast to the "free and the brave" makes a ton of contextual sense.

That's exactly what it is.

 

[IrishLax]

So I just did a Google search and I'm surprised that there is actually TONS of information on African Americans in the War of 1812. Maybe I'm wrong on what I said above, maybe I'm not... will have to read these links:
https://www.nps.gov/articles/series.htm?id=FC704658-FFDB-BE94-5AA2B317D11D7958

Black Soldier and Sailors in the War | War of 1812 | PBS

 

[gkIrish]

Didn't he state his reason? Hasn't his reason been reported? Haven't people been talking about it? Haven't we been discussing it? We don't have to like what he did but there is little doubt that he succeeded in his attempt to draw attention to a cause. It seems his preference would be the conversation centered on systemic racism, but others would rather talk about his methods. Fair enough but I don't know the guy, so I'll take him at his word.

The problem/cause has been talked about nonstop since all the Ferguson stuff. Probably as far back as Trayvon Martin. What solution did he propose that we are talking about?

Not a single black person's life has improved because of this. I actually wouldn't be surprised if some white guy out there hates black people even more now. All he has done IMO is bring attention to himself.

 

[irishff1014]

Kap's actions help black people because he has initiated a conversation. He is using his notoriety to draw attention to something he feels is important ... and it is working, at least it seems to be working here in this thread.

I find his protest brave and noble more than clownish. He's not doing it without some risk to his career and he is doing it for a cause that he hopes will help people.

Brave haha. Stupid more like it.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

1) This is not brave. It's incredibly dumb. I support any American's right to protest, but the 49ers want to cut him and he isn't liked in the lcoker room. He's not a very good QB to begin with. Who's going to want him after this?

2) He hasn't initiated a conversation. It started a long time ago.

3) He proposed zero solutions to the problem he stated.

4) Kap refusing to stand during the national anthem helps absolutely no one.

5) He had every right to say what he said, now he can live with the consequences professionally.

 

[yankeehater]

And oh yeah, does anyone else remember that CK was fined last year for calling an opponent the N word...

Yup...Fined $11k for calling someone an F'n N word after being picked.


Throwback To When Colin Kaepernick Was Fined For Using Racial Slurs Towards A Black Player | Daily Snark

 

[yankeehater]

What is this Country coming to? The American Flag is being banned because it offends. God Please Help Us!

SC school bans American flag from football games | EAGnews.org

 

[IrishinSyria]

What is this Country coming to? The American Flag is being banned because it offends. God Please Help Us!

SC school bans American flag from football games | EAGnews.org

“Some events at last evening’s football game have resulted in concerns being raised in our community. I am writing to assure that any decisions made regarding American flags being permitted into the game were made in the best interests of all attending the game and in the spirit of patriotism and respect for our flag,” Lavely wrote in response to Facebook backlash about the ban, which turned away several students who came to the game with American flags.

I'm guessing that there's more to this story than the flag itself was offensive. To be honest, I have my doubts that this bro just showed up to the game planning to give the flag due deference:

 

[phgreek]

What is this Country coming to? The American Flag is being banned because it offends. God Please Help Us!

SC school bans American flag from football games | EAGnews.org

I know what the principal was trying to do...I believe the correct response would have been to have the other principal hand out American flags to his kids to wave...see how that works.

Instead, we missed an opportunity to foster unity through inclusion...to make the flag not what perpetual victims try and make it....not what bigots try and make it...but what it is. We also gave voice and credibility to those who probably did have some ugly rationale for flying the flag to begin with.

All around fail...stop sucking at your job Principal Lavely.

Sometimes you just gotta use your head for more than a hat rack...

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Here ya go, Kap.

San Francisco police union president rips Colin Kaepernick

 

[NDohio]

I know what the principal was trying to do...I believe the correct response would have been to have the other principal hand out American flags to his kids to wave...see how that works.

Instead, we missed an opportunity to foster unity through inclusion...to make the flag not what perpetual victims try and make it....not what bigots try and make it...but what it is. We also gave voice and credibility to those who probably did have some ugly rationale for flying the flag to begin with.

All around fail...stop sucking at your job Principal Lavely.

Sometimes you just gotta use your head for more than a hat rack...

So, I didn't read these specific articles, but I know a little bit about these two communities and they definitely have a bit of a history between them.

There was almost a brawl at a soccer game between these two school last year. Travelers Rest is a predominately white school and Berega is predominately Hispanic. During the soccer game last year TR students were doing a lot of "cheers" about sending immigrants back to their home country. The Berega players took exception and started fouling the TR players pretty hard. The game was called just after halftime cause it was completely out of control.

The flag being brought to the game was most definitely not just a random kid bringing a US flag to a football game. There was obvious intent behind it and those intentions weren't to be the honoring of USA.