Police State USA

[Irish#1]

You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.

There's a lot that can be done there. Educating why it's important to get involved, teaching at a young age and reinforcing, tear down the empty houses, more street lights, police neighborhood outreach, etc.

 

[drayer54]

He's been quite clear on what he believes, I'm asking him what empirical evidence there is to support his belief that increased sentencing will deter crime.

There's no data to support a victory we haven't had yet. I can point to the contrary where bail reform laws and prisoner release in the state of New York for example. You can look at crime rates after the 1994 crime bill. It doesn't matter. You could also argue Brazil has less than half our incarceration rate but six times the murder rate.

People commit crimes because even as your opinion piece stated- they think they will get away with it. The way to deter crime then would logically be to make people less confident they'll get away with it and more afraid of the consequences. You don't accomplish that with social workers.

 

[GowerND11]

There's a lot that can be done there. Educating why it's important to get involved, teaching at a young age and reinforcing, tear down the empty houses, more street lights, police neighborhood outreach, etc.

Detroit is attempting it, still a ways to go, but it's happening.

Pittsburgh is having some successes, though still a long tough road as well. Our kids here at my placement that come from Pittsburgh have an educational liaison that goes over what they are accomplishing here, and helps them make sure they are on track when they get back there.

 

[TorontoGold]

Good discussion. Like a lot of subjects, stats can be found to support both sides. Would appreciate it if you would share what you would do to fix this.

If stats supported higher sentencing/crime deterrence they would be posted by now, they haven't, and that's telling.

Early intervention is key, get them while they're young. Out of poverty, and into post secondary schooling are two most important ones.

 

[TorontoGold]

There's no data to support a victory we haven't had yet. I can point to the contrary where bail reform laws and prisoner release in the state of New York for example. You can look at crime rates after the 1994 crime bill. It doesn't matter. You could also argue Brazil has less than half our incarceration rate but six times the murder rate.

People commit crimes because even as your opinion piece stated- they think they will get away with it. The way to deter crime then would logically be to make people less confident they'll get away with it and more afraid of the consequences. You don't accomplish that with social workers.

You would think logically that if the position of increased sentencing leads to deterrence of crime then other countries would be doing this, right? There's nothing unique or special about this situation. To think it's "just different" is incredibly naïve.

Opinion piece is one way to call an article that sources a bunch of science based studies and papers. The whole class is waiting for you to share anything that supports the increased sentencing = crime deterrence, join us when you're ready.

 

[Blazers46]

You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.

A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.

 

[NorthDakota]

Lol the jurors in the Chauvin trial seem dead set on wanting people to question their verdict.

 

[GowerND11]

A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.

White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.

 

[Irish#1]

If stats supported higher sentencing/crime deterrence they would be posted by now, they haven't, and that's telling.

Early intervention is key, get them while they're young. Out of poverty, and into post secondary schooling are two most important ones.

The bottom line is, like so many other issues the answer lies somewhere in the middle . Harsh punishment isn't going to stop anyone who is bent on committing the crime. Post secondary education is nice, but you have to graduate from HS first. How do you keep kids from dropping out? Vocational training probably fits better for a lot of people. We hear poverty all the time, but look at all of the examples where there is success right in the middle of poverty. The kid from Bama that was just drafted (Harris?). Lived in his car, but didn't let that lead him down the wrong path.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.

Yeah that surely had an impact 40 years ago but that doesn’t explain the modern housing problems. The go-to “white flight” or “white people did that” doesn’t solve the current problems, it will def help prevent the same disgusting cycle from repeating itself ofcourse. A lot of the problems are ingrained in poor areas (not just cities) and it doesn’t matter what the race of the person is or isn’t. You’re generally screwed if you grow up around the poverty line. That’s why I believe it’s more an economic problem than race issue. Don’t get me wrong, race played a big role historically, I just think the modern crisis is born more of economic disparities and mismanagement of government resources. Residential instability, failing school districts, high crime rate zones, single parents, gang activity, urban decay is a vicious cycle that destroys everything in its path regardless of your race, religion, sexual orientation...etc.

Big problem is that throwing money at these areas doesn’t help. Those areas get tons of federal funding for housing, massive school budgets, youth and adult out reach programs...etc and still nothing changes. I don’t think it’s a problem we can buy ourselves out of and I wish I knew the answer but until political partisanship ends nothing will change.


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[RDU Irish]

A lot of my clients were just guilty of being young and poor before entering the program. These were not court ordered post-adjudicated programs for the most part. Although we did have a lot of cases referred to us by DCS.

Recidivism rates are through the roof, 66% of those released from prison will be arrested again at some point. You can’t talk about crime prevention and ignore those who have once been arrested.

it’s almost like asking the chicken and the egg question. Did the crime make neighborhoods or did the neighborhoods make the crime? For example, Those abandoned homes did not abandon themselves. Someone moved and nobody moved back in. Why?

In my experience you can tear down homes and start that area out fresh but the people just move 5 minutes down the road and create and new area of need.

We don’t really have a 1982 DeLorean to go back pre-crime. A lot of crime is multigenerational. It’s a learned behavior or they are a victim of poverty or other social issues created by a line of imprisonments within the family line.

I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.

Also get serious about removing kids from completely broken situations. My wife has babies being weaned off of all kinds of drugs (street and prescription) - in the rare case the kid doesn't go home with the negligent mom it is sent home with some family member. Nobody is serious about giving these kids a chance.

 

[Blazers46]

White flight for one. I mean, there were legit racist tactics to convince white people to move out of their neighborhoods because middle class blacks were moving in. Telling the white people these black people would bring in crime, and meanwhile I can sell you this brand new "EXCLUSIVE WHITES ONLY" house in our Levittown development right up the brand new interstate.

I am not getting your point. Are you saying everything they thought would come true actually came true, or did it come true because white people left? And is the solution gentrification and moving white people into black neighborhoods?

 

[Blazers46]

I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.

Also get serious about removing kids from completely broken situations. My wife has babies being weaned off of all kinds of drugs (street and prescription) - in the rare case the kid doesn't go home with the negligent mom it is sent home with some family member. Nobody is serious about giving these kids a chance.

Its way too easy to have kids, its way too hard to lose your kids, its way too easy to get them back.

A poster above maybe a week or so ago said something about teenage pregnancy and I sort of blew it off because it sounded like a church youth group sermon... but the more I think about teenage pregnancy and how more black kids are born to parents under age 15 than white kids you would have to think its a contributing factor.

As much as some mock Ben Shapiro he screams that probably the biggest problem that plagues the black community and in a lot of poor communities as a whole is single parent households. Black people are more likely to have a fatherless child, more likely to have a child at 15 or under and 19 or under, also more likely to have an abortion. Just about every black friend I had growing up in my inner city school did not have a dad in the home and my best friend never really knew who his dad was.

85% of youth in prison come from fatherless homes.

 

[GowerND11]

I am not getting your point. Are you saying everything they thought would come true actually came true, or did it come true because white people left? And is the solution gentrification and moving white people into black neighborhoods?

Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.

 

[Blazers46]

Lol the jurors in the Chauvin trial seem dead set on wanting people to question their verdict.

I dont get it. Do they want a book deal, their 10 seconds of fame? Suprisingly all the things I have read from the liberal side is the jurors coming out and speaking puts a dent in any appeal... to me it seems they are handing Chauvin a case for appeal just coming forward as a juror so people can look up their social justice history. Pretty sure I read Juror 52 (I think) said in voir dire he did not have much knowledge on the case and then is pictured pre trial wearing a George Floyd shirt and BLM hat.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.

Well you made a very complex social change very simple. Post-WW2, veterans were offered killer loans and mortgages to move out into the suburbs. Governments creation of “the great society” and made a big push for suburban growth. Cities were crowded and dirty and suburbs offered space and lawns.
That’s what started the migration.

The racist part is on the government for investing in the burbs and not into the cities. White people were redlined who tried to move to the city and blacks were red lines who tried to leave. Manufacturing and jobs shipped off and later overseas. Again, the government created this mess. Blaming white people for being racist for every problem is disingenuous and will allow it to happen again.


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[Blazers46]

Well it comes true when people preyed on racist fears, and motivated by racism to literally abandon neighborhoods.

Whats the cause of abandoned homes and poverty within the last 30-40 years? Detroit started losing people in the early 2000s, that was probably the auto industry.

 

[GowerND11]

Well you made a very complex social change very simple. Post-WW2, veterans were offered killer loans and mortgages to move out into the suburbs. Governments creation of “the great society” and made a big push for suburban growth. Cities were crowded and dirty and suburbs offered space and lawns.
That’s what started the migration.

The racist part is on the government for investing in the burbs and not into the cities. White people were redlined who tried to move to the city and blacks were red lines who tried to leave. Manufacturing and jobs shipped off and later overseas. Again, the government created this mess. Blaming white people for being racist for every problem is disingenuous and will allow it to happen again.


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I'm not blaming white people being racist for every problem. I'm saying racist is one of the reasons that caused some of these problems.

 

[GowerND11]

Whats the cause of abandoned homes and poverty within the last 30-40 years? Detroit started losing people in the early 2000s, that was probably the auto industry.

Detroit started losing people in the 70s. Of course a major factor was the auto industry. I've never once said racism/racial fears is the sole reason. I've said that's a contributing factor. Especially as more and more middle class blacks did move into neighborhoods.

 

[Irish#1]

Detroit started losing people in the 70s. Of course a major factor was the auto industry. I've never once said racism/racial fears is the sole reason. I've said that's a contributing factor. Especially as more and more middle class blacks did move into neighborhoods.

In 77 or 78, I worked with a guy that was from Detroit. I still remember him saying "Man, your slums are way better than Detroit's".

 

[Irish#1]

I have forever thought a program for state military schools is the way to go - if you can't show up and be respectful at school you get sent away for months at a time. Make it voluntary too - any parent can send their kid there if they think they are losing control or kid running with the wrong crowd or need the break to deal with their own shit. I have known a lot of folks that have spent a lot of money to hit that reset button for their kids for a variety of reasons.

The more I think about this, the more it intrigues me. No better place to instill discipline than a military environment.

 

[Irish#1]

I dont get it. Do they want a book deal, their 10 seconds of fame? Suprisingly all the things I have read from the liberal side is the jurors coming out and speaking puts a dent in any appeal... to me it seems they are handing Chauvin a case for appeal just coming forward as a juror so people can look up their social justice history. Pretty sure I read Juror 52 (I think) said in voir dire he did not have much knowledge on the case and then is pictured pre trial wearing a George Floyd shirt and BLM hat.

I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.

 

[Blazers46]

I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.

100%. That and not sequestering the jury really set the whole thing up for appeal.

 

[IrishRazor82]

I've always felt this trial should have been held someplace else.

This is so true. The jurors can be selected from another state all the same.

 

[Irish#1]

Started watching the docu series titled "Flint". Covers Flint, Michigan police. Police force once over 300+ is now under 100 due to lack of funds which s a result of all the automotive jobs that dried up. Smallest force in the country for a city of 100K. Patrolmen answering a lot of calls with no back up.

 

[Blazers46]

Friend back in Indiana sent me this video. Thoughts?

The obvious outrage is the officer being told to leave and his motives being questioned. What I did not see initially because its easy to miss was the black power fist in the background. Reason #9,654,905 I dont send my kids to public school.

 

[Irish#1]

Afraid the kids would be scarred if they saw him taking walk through? I like how he reminded her they were the good guys. lol

 

[ulukinatme]

Yeah, this isn't how things get better. Good officers doing their job, helping deter crime and build relationships in the community and you kick them out. Meeting officers in our school back in the day while they taught D.A.R.E and helped watch over events built real relationships. Our private school gave a very nice gift to our D.A.R.E officer when he retired, he had tears in his eyes. I have no words.

[EDIT] Found a write up on Officer Shipper's retirement https://www.times-gazette.com/article/20090611/NEWS/306119276

From the article:

He praised Shipper for all the program has done to build stronger relationships among the department, the schools and residents.

“I never had to worry about the D.A.R.E. program,” Miracle said. “I might not have seen Jeff for weeks at a time, but I knew where he was and what he was doing. He was in the schools talking to kids. I appreciate that.”

Taft teachers presented Shipper with a gift basket, a weekend getaway at a condo in Port Clinton and a book of bad jokes compiled by students.

Shipper later explained he enjoyed sharing bad jokes with students.

He gave a brief farewell speech, pausing a few times to contain his emotions.

“The greatest thrill of this ride is the friendships I’ve made over the past years, friendships with teachers, administrators, parents and students alike,” he said.

The students rushed to the podium after Shipper finished. He nearly disappeared beneath a wave of orange shirts.

 

[Blazers46]

Yeah, this isn't how things get better. Good officers doing their job, helping deter crime and build relationships in the community and you kick them out. Meeting officers in our school back in the day while they taught D.A.R.E and helped watch over events built real relationships. Our private school gave a very nice gift to our D.A.R.E officer when he retired, he had tears in his eyes. I have no words.

[EDIT] Found a write up on Officer Shipper's retirement https://www.times-gazette.com/article/20090611/NEWS/306119276

From the article:

I remember my DARE officers name, just dont remember how to spell it. Great Guy.... officer Schmiel...?? Elkhart City PD.

 

[Irish#1]

Clay Travis and Buck Sexton were announced as replacements for Rush Limbaugh. Travis making the change from sports to main stream news/politics, like Bryant Gumbel and Keith Olbermann. Will be interesting to see what the ratings will be.