Police State USA

[Irish#1]

This is 100% correct, blaming a group of people that have been historically disadvantaged by both parties and have faced discrimination throughout history is such a terrible cop out. Easy to blame the absent dad when you've thrown him in jail for trivial things. Privatized prison! Wooooooo

Of course, but when there is a profit motive to continue sending people to prison nothing really matters in terms of taking care of people and providing rehabilitation.

 

[TorontoGold]

There is still a cost and currently the prison population is on the decline. In fact violent crime rates have been on the way down the last 30 years, total arrest are down about 35% over the same time frame.

https://www.statista.com/statistics...h-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

Which country doesn't belong on this list.

 

[Blazers46]

https://www.statista.com/statistics...h-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

Which country doesn't belong on this list.

Canada

Maybe there are Americans that can seek Asylum to Canada since America is so oppressive.

 

[TorontoGold]

Canada

Maybe there are Americans that can seek Asylum to Canada since America is so oppressive.

"Enjoy gun violence? But don't want to go to prison at quite the same rates as the US, come immigrate to Canada today"

 

[NorthDakota]

https://www.statista.com/statistics...h-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

Which country doesn't belong on this list.

Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.

 

[Blazers46]

Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.

I am pretty happy.

 

[TorontoGold]

Eh... we might be the best country on earth but we got a lot of dumbasses too.

Idk how similar/ different the Canuck justice system is to ours, but if you ever go to court for a week or two, you see so many dumb people who do dumb things and get themselves locked up.

On one hand, you feel bad for some of them because they maybe had a rough life. On the other hand.... quit stealing cars and setting them on fire dude.

Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.

 

[Trait Expectations]

If you go back about a year. There were several that want defunding or changes that basically stripped police of most of their authority. I haven't seen them on here in a while though.


Edit: NJNP is one that GowerND11 mentioned.

Fine, there was a poster a year ago that talked about defunding the police. Is that what he means by "this board is not pro police"?

 

[NorthDakota]

Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.

Idk how reliable the data is. The data i found ( https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#detail?state1Option=U.S. Total&state2Option=0 ) has us at 419/100K.

It also looks like that source has incarceration dropping. I dont know the cause, I suspect changes in drug prosecutions and state level legalization has helped but thats a hunch.

 

[Irish#1]

Fine, there was a poster a year ago that talked about defunding the police. Is that what he means by "this board is not pro police"?

You will have to ask him that question, as I have no idea. You asked a question and I thought I was being helpful by answering, but apparently not.

 

[drayer54]

Right but your peer countries should never be places like Rwanda or Turkmenistan. There's no excuse for jailing your citizens that much. American's for the large part aren't violent animals that need to be locked up.

I disagree. I think the US has a massive under-incarceration problem.

When I see 63k violent criminals being released back into the streets of California (LINK)- I see insanity. Violent people belong behind bars and shouldn't plea bargain away their time. I'm not talking about stashing the jails with pot users. I'm talking about people who commit violent crimes. Crimes with guns. Robbery. Rape. Arson. Murder.

Remember the guy who attacked the Asian woman in NYC that got lots of attention? He was on parole for murdering his mother. Should have been behind bars.

The guy that shot people up outside of the fancy NYC restaurant a few days back? Repeat criminal with warrants and firearm charges who should have been... behind bars.

We live in a country with few consequences. We don't punish kids in schools anymore. My school had a paddle. My kids are with entitled brats who have positive reinforcement. No discipline allowed. My wife's a teacher and hates it. The admin is terrified to punish certain kids over perceptions.

It doesn't stop in school though. Big City DA's are letting bad people walk the streets.
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/CharlesFLehman/status/1382798599860391938?s=20[/TWEET]
No big deal. I'm sure we won't see his face again.

Those two girls who dragged the uber eats driver to his death in DC a few weeks back won't get jail. There's a reason they were more upset about losing the cellphone than the dead guy. The cell phone was the biggest consequence.

Don't forget that bail is somehow a bad thing now and we're just tossing the criminals right back out. NY bail reform law will keep me out of that state forever. I once lived in Saratoga, but won't return.
A reputed gang member who was freed without bail despite attempted-murder charges allegedly went on a crime spree that included dragging an NYPD officer with a car Friday — enraging the city’s top cop.

The same people who want gun control refuse to push laws that will work because it leads to further incarceration. They also won't enforce laws on the books for the same reason. If you commit a violent crime with a firearm or are a prohibited carrier- guess where you belong? But Nah, let's stop people from being able to defend themselves from the violent criminals we're releasing by the thousands. Ultra lib District Attorneys in high-crime cities are more responsible than anyone for surging crime right now.

We're looking at increasing crime, decreasing prosecution, more released violent criminals, skyrocketing gun sales, open borders, and the land of zero consequences. It's basically the old west in certain places. This isn't hard. We need more incarceration and we need it now.

Imagine living in a city experiencing surging crime and the highest murder rate in 50 years and the left-wing lunatics in charge cut 4 million and a hundred officers? It's insanity. Not like the DA would prosecute anyone they arrest anyways.

The best part of this. You know who would have agreed with me and been right? 1990s Joe Biden.

 

[TorontoGold]

That is certainly a take. Any thoughts on how to provide rehabilitation to people in jail?

 

[drayer54]

That is certainly a take. Any thoughts on how to provide rehabilitation to people in jail?

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/CityJournal/status/1386885315831414785?s=20[/TWEET]

I don't love the idea of people in bars, but it works to keep the good people safe. Not sure why the country is drifting from this.

 

[TorontoGold]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/CityJournal/status/1386885315831414785?s=20[/TWEET]

I don't love the idea of people in bars, but it works to keep the good people safe. Not sure why the country is drifting from this.

Which of the countries on the list I previously posted, are success stories for having mass incarceration?

 

[drayer54]

Which of the countries on the list I previously posted, are success stories for having mass incarceration?

First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

But...

The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:

1. Qatar
2. Taiwan
3. UAE
4. Georgia
5. Oman
6. Hong Kong
7. Slovenia
8. Isle of Man
9. Switzerland
10. Japan

According to the report, the least safe countries are:

1. Venezuela
2. Papua New Guinea
3. South Africa
4. Afghanistan
5. Honduras
6. Trinidad And Tobago
7. Brazil
8. Guyana
9. El Salvador
10. Syria

I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/country/UnitedArabEmirates/criminalpenalties.htm


The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.

 

[GowerND11]

First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

But...

The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:

1. Qatar
2. Taiwan
3. UAE
4. Georgia
5. Oman
6. Hong Kong
7. Slovenia
8. Isle of Man
9. Switzerland
10. Japan

According to the report, the least safe countries are:

1. Venezuela
2. Papua New Guinea
3. South Africa
4. Afghanistan
5. Honduras
6. Trinidad And Tobago
7. Brazil
8. Guyana
9. El Salvador
10. Syria

I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/country/UnitedArabEmirates/criminalpenalties.htm


The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.

Yeah, I love countries that arrest you for premarital sex...

 

[NorthDakota]

Yeah, I love countries that arrest you for premarital sex...

Shouldn't be arrested.

Should be shot.

 

[TorontoGold]

First one that came to mind was UAE. Now there are far too many variables to do apples to oranges with any of these.

But...

The top 10 safest countries, as at July 2020 are:

1. Qatar
2. Taiwan
3. UAE
4. Georgia
5. Oman
6. Hong Kong
7. Slovenia
8. Isle of Man
9. Switzerland
10. Japan

According to the report, the least safe countries are:

1. Venezuela
2. Papua New Guinea
3. South Africa
4. Afghanistan
5. Honduras
6. Trinidad And Tobago
7. Brazil
8. Guyana
9. El Salvador
10. Syria

I love the UAE. Been 12 times. May move there if the Dems destroy this one much more. But you aren't getting a cake DA, bail free experience in the UAE. You mess up and your butt is going to be punished. Punishment is what works. Consequences.

Penalties for breaking the law can be more severe than in the United States for similar offenses. Persons violating Emirati laws, even unknowingly, may be expelled, arrested, imprisoned, or prevented from traveling and their passport held by local authorities for extended periods of time. U.S. citizens have been arrested in the past for obscene hand gestures, using inappropriate (foul) language with a police official, and for public displays of affection, such as kissing. Penalties for possession, use, or trafficking in illegal drugs in the United Arab Emirates are severe. Convicted offenders can expect long jail sentences, heavy fines, and deportation. It is possible to be convicted for drug possession based on the result of a drug test even if no other evidence exists, regardless of when or where the consumption originally occurred. https://www.countryreports.org/country/UnitedArabEmirates/criminalpenalties.htm


The bottom 10 countries look like the ones we should not be concerned about flooding our southern border.

No, this list https://www.statista.com/statistics...h-the-most-prisoners-per-100-000-inhabitants/

So, from the actual list of prisoners per 100K, which would be considered a success?

 

[drayer54]

It's impossible to draw a conclusion from that without understanding the difference in what they are there for and sentencing, etc. Just because El Salvador locks people up doesn't mean we are like El Salvador.
I'm pointing to the high amount of violent people who either plea bargain, don't get charged/prosecuted, walk free with ridiculous bail requirements or lack thereof, early parole, early release, and contribute to an escalating crime rate in this country. The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law. Like the protestors in Portland who get arrested, released, charges dropped, repeat.

Our country has been pushing people out of prison due to COVID, safe prisons etc., pushing bail relief, shining the light on police and it is all contributing beyond the other factors of raising irresponsible kids to increased crime. We had decades of decreasing crime under this system until about 2 years ago. It works to jail people.

 

[GowerND11]

Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.

 

[drayer54]

Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.

That stuff is great. Until they create victims. Then you have to deal with reality.

 

[TorontoGold]

It's impossible to draw a conclusion from that without understanding the difference in what they are there for and sentencing, etc. Just because El Salvador locks people up doesn't mean we are like El Salvador.
I'm pointing to the high amount of violent people who either plea bargain, don't get charged/prosecuted, walk free with ridiculous bail requirements or lack thereof, early parole, early release, and contribute to an escalating crime rate in this country. The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law. Like the protestors in Portland who get arrested, released, charges dropped, repeat.

Our country has been pushing people out of prison due to COVID, safe prisons etc., pushing bail relief, shining the light on police and it is all contributing beyond the other factors of raising irresponsible kids to increased crime. We had decades of decreasing crime under this system until about 2 years ago. It works to jail people.

No it just means more people are in prison per capita than El Salvador. Are the people in prison in the US in there for less serious crimes than the people in El Salvador? If so, do you think it's reasonable to have a more restrictive system in place than a country like El Salvador? Additionally, do you have data that suggests implementing tougher sentencing reduces crime rates?

 

[drayer54]

No it just means more people are in prison per capita than El Salvador. Are the people in prison in the US in there for less serious crimes than the people in El Salvador? If so, do you think it's reasonable to have a more restrictive system in place than a country like El Salvador? Additionally, do you have data that suggests implementing tougher sentencing reduces crime rates?

I would argue the current crime spike amongst the push to release people speaks to your data request. I'm not confined in this position to an incarceration chart. I would argue the trends amongst the 'safest' countries are more important in determining what works. Is El Salvador's success or failures in crime directly related to its prison count?

Look at the US crime rate for two decades after the 1994 crime bill and tell me what happened?

It's not hard. When you have zero consequences the law means nothing. Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning. Our current system is a joke and the same people who want to defund police (radicals not certainly people here) are also the ones trying to break prosecution, free prisoners, and throwing gasoline on our crime surge.

 

[Blazers46]

Instead of locking people up, we should look into prevention of crime, community creation, keeping families intact, jobs, schools, etc.

I was a social worker for 11ish years. I worked in jails and I worked with clients through the state and privately. Tons of programs, some good some bad. A lot of people do not want help. How do you help people that dont want help?

I ran a program where would taught basic living skills. We got people/families apartments and we paid for EVERYTHING. Food/Rent/Travel... the idea was to ween them off after 6 months. 90% month 7, 80% month 8.... and so on. Best program I have ever been a part of. The only "strings attached" is they would have to meet with me or anothe staff 5-10 hours per week and just learn basic living skills. Budgeting money, saving money, cooking, parenting... Its amazing how many people that signed on for this program that was later "kicked out" of the program just because they did not 1) find or maintain employment in the 6 months leading up to the 7th month 2) Meet even on a semi-regular basis to learn living skills. We primarily worked with young families. They could erceive any services offered through the state of Indiana for FREE. Family counseling, individual counseling... some of which we mandated but some they could just simply request.

We were very hands on. We took them shopping. We took them to find job and apply. We helped fill out applications. We helped where ever the client needed help with. If everything went well and to script they could be with us for about 18 months. some would need an extention and we started to ween them off in month 9-10 sometimes. Very client friendly. Success rate was decent the frist few years but after 3 years off the program the clients would be back where they started begging to get back on the program. When I say "off the program" they still recieved some services through the state if needed, free.

We still had a lot of clients getting arrested for a myriad of things from robbery, domestic issues, murder... we actually stopped the program in about 2012-2013 because someone tried to sue us and hold us responsible for their crimes. We then just ran the program with kids aging out of foster care.

 

[Blazers46]

If you say America has a "mass incarceration" you are lacking context of crime rates. The crime rate would suggest we aren't locking up enough. But the crime rate would also suggest we have a people problem that needs some work as well.

 

[TorontoGold]

I would argue the current crime spike amongst the push to release people speaks to your data request. I'm not confined in this position to an incarceration chart. I would argue the trends amongst the 'safest' countries are more important in determining what works. Is El Salvador's success or failures in crime directly related to its prison count?

Look at the US crime rate for two decades after the 1994 crime bill and tell me what happened?

It's not hard. When you have zero consequences the law means nothing. Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning. Our current system is a joke and the same people who want to defund police (radicals not certainly people here) are also the ones trying to break prosecution, free prisoners, and throwing gasoline on our crime surge.

What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180514-do-long-prison-sentences-deter-crime

 

[Blazers46]

What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180514-do-long-prison-sentences-deter-crime

You guys might be talking about 2 different things. When you empty the jails because of COVID you are releasing more criminals to the wild which would increase crime rates. But as a whole the threat of punishment through law or policy does not deter crime, at least on paper. At the same time you would be ignorant to think if we abandoned all punishment altogether it would not increase crime. I have always learned that statistically punishment is not a deterant to crime (statistically) but is it really measureable since we do not really have a place where they have abandoned punishment altogether? You could argue some of the rioting looting where civilians knew the police were told to stand down probably contributed to an increase in crime in those areas.

 

[TorontoGold]

You guys might be talking about 2 different things. When you empty the jails because of COVID you are releasing more criminals to the wild which would increase crime rates. But as a whole the threat of punishment through law or policy does not deter crime, at least on paper. At the same time you would be ignorant to think if we abandoned all punishment altogether it would not increase crime. I have always learned that statistically punishment is not a deterant to crime (statistically) but is it really measureable since we do not really have a place where they have abandoned punishment altogether? You could argue some of the rioting looting where civilians knew the police were told to stand down probably contributed to an increase in crime in those areas.

"US has a massive under-incarceration problem."
"Punishment deters and gives the law its meaning"
"The current jail count isn't scaring people and deterring crime at all. Tough sentencing for violent crimes is needed to get people to respect the law"
"It works to jail people."

He's been quite clear on what he believes, I'm asking him what empirical evidence there is to support his belief that increased sentencing will deter crime.

 

[Irish#1]

What? I'm asking for data to support your claim. What empirical evidence do you have that supports the claim that longer sentences will deter crime. Here's a fun read (not too scientific so don't worry) https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20180514-do-long-prison-sentences-deter-crime

Good discussion. Like a lot of subjects, stats can be found to support both sides. Would appreciate it if you would share what you would do to fix this.

 

[GowerND11]

I was a social worker for 11ish years. I worked in jails and I worked with clients through the state and privately. Tons of programs, some good some bad. A lot of people do not want help. How do you help people that dont want help?

I ran a program where would taught basic living skills. We got people/families apartments and we paid for EVERYTHING. Food/Rent/Travel... the idea was to ween them off after 6 months. 90% month 7, 80% month 8.... and so on. Best program I have ever been a part of. The only "strings attached" is they would have to meet with me or anothe staff 5-10 hours per week and just learn basic living skills. Budgeting money, saving money, cooking, parenting... Its amazing how many people that signed on for this program that was later "kicked out" of the program just because they did not 1) find or maintain employment in the 6 months leading up to the 7th month 2) Meet even on a semi-regular basis to learn living skills. We primarily worked with young families. They could erceive any services offered through the state of Indiana for FREE. Family counseling, individual counseling... some of which we mandated but some they could just simply request.

We were very hands on. We took them shopping. We took them to find job and apply. We helped fill out applications. We helped where ever the client needed help with. If everything went well and to script they could be with us for about 18 months. some would need an extention and we started to ween them off in month 9-10 sometimes. Very client friendly. Success rate was decent the frist few years but after 3 years off the program the clients would be back where they started begging to get back on the program. When I say "off the program" they still recieved some services through the state if needed, free.

We still had a lot of clients getting arrested for a myriad of things from robbery, domestic issues, murder... we actually stopped the program in about 2012-2013 because someone tried to sue us and hold us responsible for their crimes. We then just ran the program with kids aging out of foster care.

You're still talking about post-crimes and such.

I'm talking about crime prevention. I'm talking about getting to people, neighborhoods, etc. before this stuff happens.