Police State USA

Blazers46

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There was a corrections officer on Fox News yesterday who said something similar. Basically, he cited use of forces memos published by the DOJ in '92 and '95 and said what Chauvin did was clearly wrong. And that beyond being the wrong thing to do, the compounding problem is that after Floyd was subdued and restrained there was absolutely no reason for him to act like he did... especially after he became unresponsive. It seems like, at minimum, Chauvin was negligent.

Exactly. Even if you don't think there's enough evidence, whatever, for a murder conviction (which has been discussed ad nauseam here), this is still a criminal act that most of the public should agree is minimally manslaughter.

Lets not forget there were 3-4 other officers involved and/or looking on... maybe more. Some new, some not. I am curious as to what those on top of his legs or mid area would have to say. I was talking to someone about the other police the other day and they said "why did the other officers not intervene" and "why did they not say anything?" My guess is sort of what I was saying earlier... its normal (not saying textbook) behavior. I will be curious what comes out or is said at their trial.
 

Blazers46

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Of course a perfect restraint is rare, and things vary in the real world compared to a residential facility. But as I said from my initial post, there comes a time, no matter what the circumstances, that once a person is limp there's something wrong, and you need to get the hell off them.

Yeah I agree, which was stated in my original comment you replied to.
 

IrishLion

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If you don't want to get shot, then maybe don't try stabbing people in front of a cop. The cop arrived upon a felony in progress and acted to protect another citizen. Short of some crazy new video or evidence being presented that changes what we've been shown, there is no gray area on this one.

Not that it would have (or even should have) changed the outcome, but an added layer that will make this a conflicting discussion is that she was apparently the one that called for help.

If it's true that she is the one that called 911, and if it's true that she was the victim being attacked by two other girls and felt like her life was in danger, does she have a right to defend herself with a knife? If the answer is 'yes' based on state laws, and if there are witnesses that will attest to her being the original victim, then this is gets a whole lot more complicated.
 

Blazers46

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Not that it would have (or even should have) changed the outcome, but an added layer that will make this a conflicting discussion is that she was apparently the one that called for help.

If it's true that she is the one that called 911, and if it's true that she was the victim being attacked by two other girls and felt like her life was in danger, does she have a right to defend herself with a knife? If the answer is 'yes' based on state laws, and if there are witnesses that will attest to her being the original victim, then this is gets a whole lot more complicated.

You dont bring a knife to a gun fight... but you also dont bring a knife to a fist fight.
 

drayer54

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1384951673530068994?s=20[/TWEET]

Not sure why anyone is a cop.

Also:
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/hostessquickly/status/1384967643233402884?s=20[/TWEET]
 

Blazers46

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1384951673530068994?s=20[/TWEET]

Not sure why anyone is a cop.

Also:
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/hostessquickly/status/1384967643233402884?s=20[/TWEET]

Ohhhhhh Lebron.... maybe someone should ask him which life matters more. The lady with the knife or the one about to be knifed.
 

drayer54

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Ohhhhhh Lebron.... maybe someone should ask him which life matters more. The lady with the knife or the one about to be knifed.

Lebron has now deleted the stupid and reckless tweet. Imagine taking action to save a girl from being stabbed only to be targeted by professional athletes with a huge following, some of those followers being without any regard for the law.

The best thing on Twitter today is libs pretending teenage knife fights are totally normal.
 

Woneone

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Not that it would have (or even should have) changed the outcome, but an added layer that will make this a conflicting discussion is that she was apparently the one that called for help.

If it's true that she is the one that called 911, and if it's true that she was the victim being attacked by two other girls and felt like her life was in danger, does she have a right to defend herself with a knife? If the answer is 'yes' based on state laws, and if there are witnesses that will attest to her being the original victim, then this is gets a whole lot more complicated.

The idea that she was the one that called 911 is apparently a statement from the grandmother. The same grandmother who told everyone that her granddaughter was also unarmed, and that police were going to lie about how she still had a knife because they were racist. Also, from what I've gathered, she didn't actually witness the event anyway, it was told to her by someone else.
 

greyhammer90

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You dont bring a knife to a gun fight... but you also dont bring a knife to a fist fight.

I'd like to get a little more explanation on this point, because I'm not sure I agree with that. If we're all in agreement that someone who feels in danger is allowed to pull a gun, why wouldn't someone who feels in danger be allowed to pull a knife?

I have literally no opinion on the cop's action in this case, I've not watched the video, don't care to, and feel pretty confident that the cop thought he was acting in the best interest of the public based on what I've read, but I thought Lion's point about how some gray area might be there if she felt she was about to get her ass kicked by two attackers was interesting.
 

Blazers46

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I'd like to get a little more explanation on this point, because I'm not sure I agree with that. If we're all in agreement that someone who feels in danger is allowed to pull a gun, why wouldn't someone who feels in danger be allowed to pull a knife?

I have literally no opinion on the cop's action in this case, I've not watched the video, don't care to, and feel pretty confident that the cop thought he was acting in the best interest of the public based on what I've read, but I thought Lion's point about how some gray area might be there if she felt she was about to get her ass kicked by two attackers was interesting.

I suggest you watch the video then.

There may have been fighting before the officer arrived but there appeared to be no fighting as the officer arrived. Then Hell broke lose as the officer walked up.

in order to be justified in using deadly force in self defense you have to prove you felt your life was in danger. Watch the video.
 

greyhammer90

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I suggest you watch the video then.

There may have been fighting before the officer arrived but there appeared to be no fighting as the officer arrived. Then Hell broke lose as the officer walked up.

in order to be justified in using deadly force in self defense you have to prove you felt your life was in danger. Watch the video.

Ok fair enough. Nah, not interested in watching it. The message I quoted seemed to indicate that bringing out a knife in a fist fight was a no-no in and of itself. If we're in agreement that it's situational, I'm cool.
 

Bishop2b5

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1384951673530068994?s=20[/TWEET]

Not sure why anyone is a cop.

Also:
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/hostessquickly/status/1384967643233402884?s=20[/TWEET]

Yeah, he was also pushing that whole Michael Brown "Hands up, don't shoot" thing until that turned out to be a complete lie. He's a speak first, get the facts later buffoon.
 

drayer54

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Yeah, he was also pushing that whole Michael Brown "Hands up, don't shoot" thing until that turned out to be a complete lie. He's a speak first, get the facts later buffoon.

He just wasn’t that informed, that’s all.
 

Blazers46

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Yeah, he was also pushing that whole Michael Brown "Hands up, don't shoot" thing until that turned out to be a complete lie. He's a speak first, get the facts later buffoon.

He has an agenda like everyone else. If you read his tweet that followed it seems facts still won’t change his mind and refuses to be wrong.

I’m so damn tired of seeing Black people killed by police. I took the tweet down because its being used to create more hate -This isn’t about one officer. it’s about the entire system and they always use our words to create more racism. I am so desperate for more ACCOUNTABILITY
 

Woneone

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Ok fair enough. Nah, not interested in watching it. The message I quoted seemed to indicate that bringing out a knife in a fist fight was a no-no in and of itself. If we're in agreement that it's situational, I'm cool.

There is, also apparently in the video (I've tried to stay away, as like you, not one to watch this) a passing glance at a man who looks like he's about to kick a women while she's down.

Love the "He should have disarmed her" takes on twitter, as if from 8-10 ft away that would have prevented at potentially mortal stabbing. Also, there was apparently a 13 year old that killed another 13 year old with a knife in the last week in Ohio : https://www.fox19.com/2021/04/20/upd...ls-police-say/

Anyone hear about that one? No? Cool. Just kids being kids.

At some point, if you want there to be actual "peace" some uncomfortable conversations need to take place. And based purely on statistics, while the Police interaction with the AA community needs to happen (Yea Clack, I saw the Charleston SC post, please see https://abcnews4.com/news/local/poli...murder-by-year - but as long as White's feel better about police interaction, what's another few murders?) there needs to be something done.

Police interaction/training has to be on that list, absolutely. But here is the truth. Most whites in rural America have fleeting interactions with African Americans. Those that do, do so in a predominantly white community. Even those liberal white's who apparently have an unhealthy habit of what I like to think of as the Marvelfication of Social Justice (Everyone can be a hero, I just need a Villian) are predominately in White Social Circles.

Anyway, truth is, with rural whites, and I'd imagine most people there is a hierarchy - My home, my neighborhood, my city, my state, my country. And they compare to these situations in that sense.

When rural America see's this, they think "Jesus, wtf is going on in X?". I mean, watch the video. That's normal, as some ppl on twitter are defending? Think about those who tragically lost their lives? George Floyd did not deserve to die, but he was a crappy human being (gun to pregnant women's belly?). Jacob Blake can be argued, but you see his sheet? Brianna Taylor was an innocent bystander, but they guy she was with (doesn't make it any less tragic). had run-ins. There are warts. No, they didn't serve to die, or shot (I have my opinions on Blake, but whatever) or the outcome that came because of terribly trained officers. But you see patterns, not just from those like Chauvin, but those who they interact with (lil Homicide?).

The conversation needs to be had about these communities and the violence within them, mostly pertaining to African American communities. Maybe white's caused it, hell, I don't know, I'm sure we didn't help, but if you want to cut down on potentially fatal interactions with law enforcement, where (statistically speaking) the majority seem justified, maybe start there. Police training? Hell yea, that needs something done.

And yes, I saw Lax's post about Urban vs Rural shootings. They've went up in Rural areas (looking at data, seems it's mostly whites, but I have a sneaking suspicion we won't hear much about racist motivations). But while Physical police interactions are down, what is the violent crime rate doing as a whole? For example:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A new study has found that areas with Black Lives Matter protests saw a 15-20% reduction in police officers’ use of lethal force — resulting in roughly 300 fewer police homicides. <a href="https://t.co/AQtQm1v4Ue">https://t.co/AQtQm1v4Ue</a></p>— Vox (@voxdotcom) <a href="https://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1384554472152698886?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">April 20, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

What they leave out is that while there is a 15/20% in reduction in lethal force, there was an upwards of 6000 more homicides in some areas. But, as long as Whitey feels good, everyone should fall in line, right?

If you consider that victim blaming, explain that too the victims: https://news.gallup.com/poll/316571/...-presence.aspx

81% of African Americans surveyed want as much or more Police presence in their area.
 
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irishff1014

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Watching thisbody cam video... he arrives on the scene and shoots her within 5 seconds of arriving. Backup is present. No attempt to subdue the kid who is clearly engaged in a physical altercation with another person and likely has no idea he is there or can hear the three "Get Downs". Puts four into her and she dies.
https://abc6onyourside.com/news/loca...ting-4-20-2021

EDITED: Didnt see he had a knife initially.

What’s sad is oh bad cop blah blah. When you watch the video there is a female on the ground to the right off the officer and a male kicks her in the head like he is kicking a football. Why isn’t there any outrage about that?

I am not sure which channel had it but the former DC police explained this situation well about the taser use. He said that it was probably to far of a distance and he doubts both probes would have stuck in her for it to be effective.
 
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irishff1014

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/KingJames/status/1384951673530068994?s=20[/TWEET]

Not sure why anyone is a cop.

Also:
[TWEET]https://twitter.com/hostessquickly/status/1384967643233402884?s=20[/TWEET]



Lebron James is a grade A piece of shit.
 

drayer54

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At some point, if you want there to be actual "peace" some uncomfortable conversations need to take place. And based purely on statistics, while the Police interaction with the AA community needs to happen (Yea Clack, I saw the Charleston SC post, please see https://abcnews4.com/news/local/poli...murder-by-year - but as long as White's feel better about police interaction, what's another few murders?) there needs to be something done.

Police interaction/training has to be on that list, absolutely. But here is the truth. Most whites in rural America have fleeting interactions with African Americans. Those that do, do so in a predominantly white community. Even those liberal white's who apparently have an unhealthy habit of what I like to think of as the Marvelfication of Social Justice (Everyone can be a hero, I just need a Villian) are predominately in White Social Circles.

Anyway, truth is, with rural whites, and I'd imagine most people there is a hierarchy - My home, my neighborhood, my city, my state, my country. And they compare to these situations in that sense.

When rural America see's this, they think "Jesus, wtf is going on in X?". I mean, watch the video. That's normal, as some ppl on twitter are defending? Think about those who tragically lost their lives? George Floyd did not deserve to die, but he was a crappy human being (gun to pregnant women's belly?). Jacob Blake can be argued, but you see his sheet? Brianna Taylor was an innocent bystander, but they guy she was with (doesn't make it any less tragic). had run-ins. There are warts. No, they didn't serve to die, or shot (I have my opinions on Blake, but whatever) or the outcome that came because of terribly trained officers. But you see patterns, not just from those like Chauvin, but those who they interact with (lil Homicide?).

The conversation needs to be had about these communities and the violence within them, mostly pertaining to African American communities. Maybe white's caused it, hell, I don't know, I'm sure we didn't help, but if you want to cut down on potentially fatal interactions with law enforcement, where (statistically speaking) the majority seem justified, maybe start there. Police training? Hell yea, that needs something done.
.

If the last few weeks had happened 25 years ago, Biden would have been in the well of the Senate making a speech asking what societal dysfunction was causing so many black 13-to-15-year olds to act so violently with such disregard for human life. And he’d be right.

As-is, teenage girls killing an uber driver with ZERO regards for his life, 13-year-olds armed in the middle of the night, fleeing cops, and knife fights are all getting a pass. We have a deep societal problem. Look at the riots last year. We have zero consequences or discipline in schools anymore and I hate it. The law is soft on many small crimes and it's all bottling up. We're in a zero consequence mindset because the press, libs, and activists will zero in on the color of the cop.

Things are only getting worse and they will as long as we pretend that our only issue is law enforcement.
 

nvirish

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Right we for sure have issues with certain police officers. In Chicago we have had 17 people murder someone while out on affordable I Bonds this year for other major crimes. Not one one peep from anyone about that. The fact that we have had 3 PO related shootings of gangbangers and 17 murders from parolees who are getting out from social justice warriors funds is madness. Kim Foxx has blood all over her hands. No outrage here on that.
 

Irish#1

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Well, you could go look at the polls that are taken and get an idea, I suppose.

Looks like there was only one, which was conducted by USA Today. Couldn't find the actual questions after a brief search.


Washington, DC, April 21, 2021 —
In the immediate aftermath of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin being found guilty of the murder of George Floyd, the large majority of Americans agree with the verdict and plan to accept the results. With most Americans saying they have followed the trial at least somewhat, the verdict presents a rare moment when majorities of both Democrats and Republicans believe the outcome is correct.

Democrats strongly concurred, at 85%, with Republicans at 55% and independents at 71%. The results were based on an online survey of 1,000 American adults from all states.

However, this Ipsos snap poll, conducted in the three hours after the verdict was announced, does find that one in five Republicans say they plan to reject the verdict and one in four Democrats plan to accept the verdict and join rallies, marches, or protests. With continued division between Republicans and Democrats on emphasizing law and order versus the right to protest, this is likely to continue being a flash point in American society.

These are some of the findings of an Ipsos poll conducted between 5pm and 8pm on April 20, 2021, on behalf USA Today. For this survey, a sample of 1,000 adults age 18-65 from the continental U.S., Alaska, and Hawaii was interviewed online in English. The sample includes 262 Republicans, 422 Democrats, and 316 Independents.
 

Irish#1

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There was a corrections officer on Fox News yesterday who said something similar. Basically, he cited use of forces memos published by the DOJ in '92 and '95 and said what Chauvin did was clearly wrong. And that beyond being the wrong thing to do, the compounding problem is that after Floyd was subdued and restrained there was absolutely no reason for him to act like he did... especially after he became unresponsive. It seems like, at minimum, Chauvin was negligent.

I don't know if the method he used should have been used or not. When you're not right there in the moment, it's hard to say. Even if it was an approved method, once he was restrained there was no reason to keep his knee there. Sit him up. If he dies later, Chauvin is probably a free man.
 

Cackalacky2.0

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There is, also apparently in the video (I've tried to stay away, as like you, not one to watch this) a passing glance at a man who looks like he's about to kick a women while she's down.

Love the "He should have disarmed her" takes on twitter, as if from 8-10 ft away that would have prevented at potentially mortal stabbing. Also, there was apparently a 13 year old that killed another 13 year old with a knife in the last week in Ohio : https://www.fox19.com/2021/04/20/upd...ls-police-say/

Anyone hear about that one? No? Cool. Just kids being kids.
In this thread I posted just this week my 17 yo cousin was killed in his home by a 14 yo. Seemed to be an accident though. I dont know th efull story still.

At some point, if you want there to be actual "peace" some uncomfortable conversations need to take place. And based purely on statistics, while the Police interaction with the AA community needs to happen (Yea Clack, I saw the Charleston SC post, please see https://abcnews4.com/news/local/poli...murder-by-year - but as long as White's feel better about police interaction, what's another few murders?) there needs to be something done.
.

OK in a city of 150000 Charleston (metro area of close to 1 million) had 8 murders the year before and then 16 and there was increase in aggavated assault and break ins during the pandemic year. Id like to see how that stacks up against other major metropolitan areas. Unfortunate. My wie and I were asked by local officails to join and participate. We did. I feel fine participating in listening sessions and community engagement and know its making a difference. Ive many numerous individuals I would not otherwise crossed paths with and have come out better for it. My hope is they have to by interacting with me. Maybe not? Its not a final solution for sure and no one thinks it will be but it is a tool and has its purpose. I also offer science and engineering tutalage to schools in downtown Charleston with unperforming STEM students, maybe I shouldnt?. Disparage me all you want. Im actively doing something to aid the community.

Here is our murder rate up to 2018 sc-population-2021-04-22-macrotrends (1).png - Click image for larger version  Name:	sc-population-2021-04-22-macrotrends (1).png Views:	0 Size:	63.7 KB ID:	2985084


Here is our overall crime rate:
sc-population-2021-04-22-macrotrends (2).png - Click image for larger version  Name:	sc-population-2021-04-22-macrotrends (2).png Views:	0 Size:	57.0 KB ID:	2985085
 
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Cackalacky2.0

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I don't know if the method he used should have been used or not. When you're not right there in the moment, it's hard to say. Even if it was an approved method, once he was restrained there was no reason to keep his knee there. Sit him up. If he dies later, Chauvin is probably a free man.

Im not arguing wiht you but all the people who answered the question on whether he was taught to do that or if it was a method they used, they all said no its not something they are trained to to use or approve. If they said otherwise I'll stand corrected.

Conspiracy theorist inside me cant help thinking he was kneeling on Floyd to simulate and subsequently demean all of the kneeling inspred by Capernick and BLM. Especially that wry smile he game made me think he knew esactly what he was doing but proving that is immposible.
 

drayer54

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[TWEET]https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1384996249036857344?s=20[/TWEET]

This will help.
 

IrishLion

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Lebron James is a grade A piece of shit.

Being in KY and surrounded by conservatives, my Facebook looks much the same. Not much outrage about the cop that was on camera murdering a guy... but a LOT of anger about the LeBron James tweet.

Interesting social dynamic to me.
 

drayer54

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Being in KY and surrounded by conservatives, my Facebook looks much the same. Not much outrage about the cop that was on camera murdering a guy... but a LOT of anger about the LeBron James tweet.

Interesting social dynamic to me.

Who was murdered?

A super-rich athlete with incredible social media impact aggressively targeting a police officer isn't cheered on by everyone.
 

IrishLion

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Who was murdered?

A super-rich athlete with incredible social media impact aggressively targeting a police officer isn't cheered on by everyone.

George Floyd?

And I agree LeBron's tweet was a big problem, and super irresponsible.

It's just interesting to see the polarity of outrage from different political sides. My largely-conservative Facebook friends list is more mad about LeBron being irresponsible on Twitter than they would ever be about a cop wrongfully killing someone.

For example, they will add context to the George Floyd thing, bringing up his problematic past and drug use, and justifying Chauvin's actions... but they won't add context to LeBron's tone-deaf social media usage by mentioning all of the good he does for kids in his community or anything like that, and they don't think about how that might affect his thoughts and actions the way they do with other people/situations.
 
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