Police State USA

[yankeeND]

I've been taking the D.C. Metro line to work lately. It seems that the Transit Police will conduct bag checks at the gates of random exits. On the one hand, I see the need for security, but on the other, is this a valid exception to the need for probably cause and a warrant? It's one thing if they're searching people before getting on a train, but after you've gotten off? I'm all for safety and security, but I also don't like rolling over just because a cop says "open your bag and let me search it." I've done a little research but haven't come up with anything conclusive. If it happens to me, and I have enough time on my hands, I'm willing to challenge it, and ask to see a warrant. Anyone have a sense of how this plays out under 4th Amendment protections?

I completely agree with you on this. I could see reason in checking prior to, but after is very odd. Even if they have reason to believe that deals are being made inside the transient unit, it should be directed towards the individual or persons that are suspected. Not just some random people. There has to be an actual reason to do such things from my understanding of the law, but the world we live in is no longer reasonable, so I don't know what the actual law says in these cases.

 

[IrishLax]

I have no idea how we went from an officers overreaction to the death, or attempted, of an individual. Her being injured would make the action more unacceptable, just because she wasn't doesn't make it acceptable.
If I drive drunk. It's wrong and I should be punished. If while doing so I injure someone else my punishment will be harsher. But at the end of the day driving drunk is still going to result in punishment.

It's called an analogy. This isn't rocket science. You're now after the fact adding on something to modify what you said.

You said:

I don't get why her being injured has any play in this. His actions were the same whether she's injured or not.

Translated... "I don't get why the result matters, his actions were the same regardless of the result."

Sorry, but results obviously do matter from a legal, logical, and moral standpoint. Trying to shoot someone and having the gun misfire is viewed/treated very differently from shooting someone and they live which is treated very differently from shooting someone and they die.

You now seem to appreciate this, noting the degrees of "wrong" in drunk driving... that isn't close to what you said in what I quoted.

 

[yankeeND]

With that officer being fired, I am really unsure how I feel about this situation. I want to also say that I do not like that the situation got physical, yet I understand how it could, but I also do not really know what is excessive anymore either. The one thing that I took from the situation is that his superior said that he did not follow procedures correctly with his actions. That means more to me than what actually transpired because if he was trained to do something differently, then he was not doing his job to the expectations set out in front of him. I get mad at people at work who take short cuts or refuse to do things that they are supposed to. If you can't perform those duties, you need to be removed. In this case, the officer in question was held to those standards, and I actually commend the person who made that decision. I think that the child who supposedly wasnt doing anything wrong, needs to also reevaluate her decisions so that something like this does not happen again, however, with the officer being fired it may promote a similar complex that makes it difficult for anything to have been learned from the situation. Overall, this is just bad for all parties involved.

 

[Irish Insanity]

You're right it isn't rocket science. But talking to someone with respect, for you, apparently is

It's completely irrational to parallel an officer (supposed to be the good guy) throwing a girl in her desk (supposed to be the bad guy) around a room and someone murdering/ attempting murder. In one case the 'good guy' is attacking the 'bad guy.' In the other the bad guy is attacking the good guy. And not to mention one involves an unruly minor ignoring her orders and the other straight up cold blooded killing (or trying to kill) someone. So in your analogy the cop is essentially compared to the murder(attempted )?

As far as your translation of my post. Exacly, he should be held responsible for his actions, her being injured would add to his eventual repercussions, but it wouldn't mean he wouldn't have any if she wasn't.

And this is exactly what my original post was. It was in responded to you posting as if he was in the right and being guilty of being to male, strong and white.

 

[pumpdog20]

I've worked with kids of all ages in multiple settings. Guess how many times I've had to call the police to deal with my inability to establish clear boundaries from day one? Never. That's how you teach kids respect and it is a two way street.

I see this situation as a complete failure of the faculty and staff of this school on every level. If you read my post you will notice I did not question the cops behavior rather the need to involve "law enforcement" in the first place. I'm fairly certain most of the adults I know could have calmly walked up to that kid and snatched that cell phone out of her hand and then calmly escorted her to the principals office. Instead we get an outtake from Cops. It's rediculous.

Maybe you have better jedi skills than the teacher and the administrator that tried prior to the cop.

 

[IrishLax]

You're right it isn't rocket science. But talking to someone with respect, for you, apparently is

Yeah, sorry. Not playing the "respect" game. I don't respect stupid posts. And your post was stupid, because you said you couldn't understand why my perception would change based on whether she was injured. Are you kidding me with that crap? You're saying your perception of the situation would've been the same if he broke her neck vs she wasn't injured?

No, clearly you're now not saying that, based on what you've posted since. Now you're saying that the results would matter.

It's completely irrational to parallel an officer (supposed to be the good guy) throwing a girl in her desk (supposed to be the bad guy) around a room and someone murdering/ attempting murder. In one case the 'good guy' is attacking the 'bad guy.' In the other the bad guy is attacking the good guy. And not to mention one involves an unruly minor ignoring her orders and the other straight up cold blooded killing (or trying to kill) someone. So in your analogy the cop is essentially compared to the murder(attempted )?

You obviously don't understand how analogies work.

I was not saying the situations were analogous. I was not comparing murder/attempted murder to a girl being thrown from her desk. Duh. I can't believe I'm even having to explain this.

I was making an analogy between the logical flaws of what you said relative to the current incident, and if you provided similar reasoning to a hypothetical one.

It wasn't about finding comparable situations, it was about illustrating why your logic was poor. You've since completely moved away from what I quoted and are stating the literal opposite in your subsequent posts so I don't even know what the fuck we're talking about at this point.

 

[Irish Insanity]

Lulz. It's not worth my time. Hope your day gets better.

 

[kmoose]

I'm fairly certain most of the adults I know could have calmly walked up to that kid and snatched that cell phone out of her hand and then calmly escorted her to the principals office.

And if she refused to go?

By the way, the minute you "snatched the cell phone out of her hand", her parents are suing you and the school district for assault. And it doesn't matter if it was actually assault or not........ all they need is a few jurors in a civil suit as sanctimonious as you about how they could have handled it better, and you are working for free for the next 50 years. But not at that school district, or likely any other one.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

And if she refused to go?

By the way, the minute you "snatched the cell phone out of her hand", her parents are suing you and the school district for assault. And it doesn't matter if it was actually assault or not........ all they need is a few jurors in a civil suit as sanctimonious as you about how they could have handled it better, and you are working for free for the next 50 years. But not at that school district, or likely any other one.

I'm not in favor of snatching the cell phone. But you're afraid an assault law suit because of taking a cell phone, but not the one where he (as phrased by the county sherrif) "threw the student across the room"?

 

[Bluto]

And if she refused to go?

By the way, the minute you "snatched the cell phone out of her hand", her parents are suing you and the school district for assault. And it doesn't matter if it was actually assault or not........ all they need is a few jurors in a civil suit as sanctimonious as you about how they could have handled it better, and you are working for free for the next 50 years. But not at that school district, or likely any other one.

If she refuses to go you contact the kids parents to inform them that they need to come get their kid immediately and suspend her. Pretty straightforward and not very sanctimonious at all. It's called protocol. I get it you want to call in the SWAT team to handle what is basic parenting.

 

[Bluto]

Maybe you have better jedi skills than the teacher and the administrator that tried prior to the cop.

Maybe the entire administattion has become overly reliant on cops to handle pretty straight forward disiciplinary issues.

 

[IrishLion]

I don't know why they didn't just tell the kid that if she wanted to stay in the desk, that's cool, but she's expelled.

 

[NDohio]

If she refuses to go you contact the kids parents to inform them that they need to come get their kid immediately and suspend her. Pretty straightforward and not very sanctimonious at all. It's called protocol. I get it you want to call in the SWAT team to handle what is basic parenting.

I am very familiar with this school - it's in the neighboring district to us - basic parenting often doesn't exist there.

My wife will attempt to contact her student's parents and it may be days before they respond or their phone numbers often change on a regular basis. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.

And, suspensions/expulsions in SC are very, very rare. The State funding looks down upon kids being kicked out of school and you will lose finances if you suspend/expel students. It's kind of a discipline nightmare actually.


I do believe things should have been handled differently, but without you knowing the type of kid/family they are dealing with here, your ideal responses to this situation are probably not going to get the results as you've stated them.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I don't know why they didn't just tell the kid that if she wanted to stay in the desk, that's cool, but she's expelled.

This would have been my first choice as well. Not necessarily expelled, but suspension or whatever the consequences were for that particular offense.

 

[Wild Bill]

You don't think it's possible that she was injured when she slammed into the tile floor (likely with cement slab underneath it) while in the desk?

No, of course not. It's very possible. I just laughed b/c of the "according to her attorney" line. I have never in my life heard an attorney say, "yeah, no damages".

 

[IrishJayhawk]

No, of course not. It's very possible. I just laughed b/c of the "according to her attorney" line. I have never in my life heard an attorney say, "yeah, no damages".

Touche

 

[Bluto]

I don't know why they didn't just tell the kid that if she wanted to stay in the desk, that's cool, but she's expelled.

Best possible choice.

 

[GoldenDome]

She was defying orders by multiple people and then swung at the "enforcer" when he was removing her

He may have used more than necessary force but do any of you believe he should be fired for this?

Wasnt this a little girl? Weren't there people here saying you should never physically abuse a woman no matter what she does?

I mean let alone a child.

 

[GoIrish41]

And if she refused to go?

By the way, the minute you "snatched the cell phone out of her hand", her parents are suing you and the school district for assault. And it doesn't matter if it was actually assault or not........ all they need is a few jurors in a civil suit as sanctimonious as you about how they could have handled it better, and you are working for free for the next 50 years. But not at that school district, or likely any other one.

So if you are going to get sued for assault, you might as well go for broke?

 

[Black Irish]

I completely agree with you on this. I could see reason in checking prior to, but after is very odd. Even if they have reason to believe that deals are being made inside the transient unit, it should be directed towards the individual or persons that are suspected. Not just some random people. There has to be an actual reason to do such things from my understanding of the law, but the world we live in is no longer reasonable, so I don't know what the actual law says in these cases.

It wasn't spot-checking based on suspicious activity. It was more like a checkpoint. Everyone's bag gets searched. Apparently it happens regularly. Maybe it's under the same umbrella where TSA agents can search every person & bag that goes onto a plane. I guess as long as you're on WMATA property, you're subject to warrantless searches? Who knows? Just rubs me the wrong way.

 

[kmoose]

So if you are going to get sued for assault, you might as well go for broke?

I doubt that the teacher will be named in the suit, which is what I was responding to........ how the teacher should/could have handled it. Even if the attorneys do name the teacher, I doubt any judge will allow it to go forward with the teacher included. The teacher never laid a hand on her, or it hasn't been reported if they did.

 

[kmoose]

Wasnt this a little girl? Weren't there people here saying you should never physically abuse a woman no matter what she does?

I mean let alone a child.

So she gets to make adult decisions on who she obeys at school, but she is a child when the consequences come down on her? If she is a child, then she should be obeying the teacher, principal, AND the police.

 

[JughedJones]

Holy God... this thread is making me crazy. Combine this with the 'Feminism' thread and I want to freak, the fuck, out.


Wow.

I still love you guys.

 

[GoIrish41]

So she gets to make adult decisions on who she obeys at school, but she is a child when the consequences come down on her? If she is a child, then she should be obeying the teacher, principal, AND the police.

Girls should just do as they are told and they won't get thrown on the floor.

 

[JughedJones]

So she gets to make adult decisions on who she obeys at school, but she is a child when the consequences come down on her? If she is a child, then she should be obeying the teacher, principal, AND the police.

If these are the rules for being in a public school class, they're new.

I can't help thinking about what I was like when I was her age. What my
friends were like. If she got beat up for saying 'screw you' in the
middle of class... I m pretty sure I should have got shot on site for the things
I did.

I was awful, and so was every other kid around me. If you think any child should
be aggressively touched by an adult, I am the enemy of that. There is no situation
where an adult should beat up a child who poses no threat to their surroundings or peers.


Why is the term "Social Justice Warrior" considered a pejorative? I never thought I'd be one, but it
has been my goal since I was 10.

 

[NDRock]

Because we're a society of sadistic assholes apparently. This kid wasn't breaking any laws so why in the hell was law enforcement involved? If the kid doesn't want to learn oh well, call her parents and suspend her from school. Instead we call in Rambo and kill a fly with a bazzoka. Good job America.

There's actually some truth to this. I really think we ask too much from law enforcement sometimes. I work with local cops quite a bit. These guys seem to spend a lot of their time working out and training on situations where they need to "neutralize the suspect", whether by physical force or deadly force.

On one hand we expect these guys to come in like "Rambo" when there is an active shooter or some other potential life threatening situation but then be a peaceful mediator in other situations. Most of the guys who get hired by the local police are young, energetic and ready for action. They seem to like the physical part of the job and I have to say, when a bad situation has arisen, they have done a great job dealing with it. They also seem to struggle with the "gentler" aspects of the job. I'm not in law enforcement, just an observation.

Quick story. The father of a good buddy of mine was having issues with his pain medication. He was going through some depression and other side effects. One day he comes over to my buddy's house talking crazy and has a gun. My buddy finally leaves the house and the local Sheriff's department is called to a "man alone in the house, talking about hurting himself". Before it was all said and done, the department had SWAT, about 30 people surrounding the house and they brought their TANK (yes a tank). My buddy thought there was no way his Dad was going to come out alive. After about 90 minutes the Sheriff basically said they weren't sure what else to do and were going to storm the house. Luckily my buddy knows the Sheriff and talked him out of it. Long story short, his father finally came to and walked out without issue. Ended up in a mental hospital for awhile.

I guess the point is that cops don't always do the best at diffusing situations but who else are you going to call? I don't envy that job at all, not to mention it doesn't pay that great.

 

[kmoose]

Girls should just do as they are told and they won't get thrown on the floor.

If these are the rules for being in a public school class, they're new.

I can't help thinking about what I was like when I was her age. What my
friends were like. If she got beat up for saying 'screw you' in the
middle of class... I m pretty sure I should have got shot on site for the things
I did.

I was awful, and so was every other kid around me. If you think any child should
be aggressively touched by an adult, I am the enemy of that. There is no situation
where an adult should beat up a child who poses no threat to their surroundings or peers.


Why is the term "Social Justice Warrior" considered a pejorative? I never thought I'd be one, but it
has been my goal since I was 10.

As long as you two are going to continually make excuses for people, for the sole purpose of excoriating people in law enforcement, then there's no point in discussing it further.

 

[JughedJones]

There's actually some truth to this. I really think we ask too much from law enforcement sometimes. I work with local cops quite a bit. These guys seem to spend a lot of their time working out and training on situations where they need to "neutralize the suspect", whether by physical force or deadly force.

On one hand we expect these guys to come in like "Rambo" when there is an active shooter or some other potential life threatening situation but then be a peaceful mediator in other situations. Most of the guys who get hired by the local police are young, energetic and ready for action. They seem to like the physical part of the job and I have to say, when a bad situation has arisen, they have done a great job dealing with it. They also seem to struggle with the "gentler" aspects of the job. I'm not in law enforcement, just an observation.

Quick story. The father of a good buddy of mine was having issues with his pain medication. He was going through some depression and other side effects. One day he comes over to my buddy's house talking crazy and has a gun. My buddy finally leaves the house and the local Sheriff's department is called to a "man alone in the house, talking about hurting himself". Before it was all said and done, the department had SWAT, about 30 people surrounding the house and they brought their TANK (yes a tank). My buddy thought there was no way his Dad was going to come out alive. After about 90 minutes the Sheriff basically said they weren't sure what else to do and were going to storm the house. Luckily my buddy knows the Sheriff and talked him out of it. Long story short, his father finally came to and walked out without issue. Ended up in a mental hospital for awhile.

I guess the point is that cops don't always do the best at diffusing situations but who else are you going to call? I don't envy that job at all, not to mention it doesn't pay that great.

 

[JughedJones]

As long as you two are going to continually make excuses for people, for the sole purpose of excoriating people in law enforcement, then there's no point in discussing it further.

Your definition of an excuse (aka I'm a kid, please don't hit me grown ass man armed with a gun!) is hilarious.

the moose. Love ya, man.

 

[kmoose]

Your definition of an excuse (aka I'm a kid, please don't hit me grown ass man armed with a gun!) is hilarious.

the moose. Love ya, man.

Do you think children should obey teachers when they ask them to follow the rules of the class?