Police State USA

goldandblue

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He was drunk and I have seen many people do dumb things with LE when drunk. I have no idea why in this particular case he struggled.

Maybe he had priors.
Maybe he couldn't afford bail and could only think about his daughters party the next day.
Maybe he knew he was going to lose his job.
Maybe he was scared of what two white cops were going to do to him.
Maybe he was pissed off at white cops and took it out on the cops.

I have no idea. None of us will unfortunately. But there are many possible reasons why he chose to do what he did, some nefarious and some might be completely "normal", whatever that means.

I’m not sure what his reasoning was but I’ll bite on the one above that is bold. My step father used to beat the shit out of my brother and me. We were scared to death of him. We obeyed EVERY word out of his mouth. In my experience, if you are truly afraid of some one you do NOT f**K with them or give them any reason whatsoever to get angry.
 

irishff1014

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He was drunk and I have seen many people do dumb things with LE when drunk. I have no idea why in this particular case he struggled.

Maybe he had priors.
Maybe he couldn't afford bail and could only think about his daughters party the next day.
Maybe he knew he was going to lose his job.
Maybe he was scared of what two white cops were going to do to him.
Maybe he was pissed off at white cops and took it out on the cops.


I have no idea. None of us will unfortunately. But there are many possible reasons why he chose to do what he did, some nefarious and some might be completely "normal", whatever that means.


He was cool and calm and then went off like a bomb so i highly doubt it had anything to do with them being white.
 

Legacy

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DUI to aggravated assault followed by an argument for robbery (since he took the taser) then when the cops chased him, another case for attempted aggravated assault when he pointed the taser at them. There are still details that need to come out, ofcourse, like was the cop in range of the taser..etc But just let the guy go? So cops are supposed to just let people who commit felonies get away if the suspect doesnt want to be caught and run? Right...ff the guy just ran away and either got caught or got away, nothing would've happened. But he stopped, turned around and aimed the taser at the cop.

What if the cops let him go and he used the taser and robbed or otherwise victimized someone else? You're the guy that would be blaming the cop.

What if if the cop doesnt react, gets tased, and his gun taken and hes executed? Or stomped? Think that doesn't happen with some frequency? It happened 3 days ago. Or the cop gets tased, his gun taken, and the guy kills someone? Again, you'd be the guy blaming the cop for getting his gun taken while being tased.

Its amazing that you sincerely believe the guy was killed because of a DUI and running away. You conveniently leave the fact out that the available evidence we have shows that the guy attacked the cop, stole the taser, and then proceeded to try and tase the cop. You don't see a thing wrong with what the victim did? At all?

These are all arguments that could be presented at trial because I imagine he will be charged with a homicide.

U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Tennessee v. Garner (471 U.S. 1) ruled that: "deadly force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

Your "What ifs" seem to amount to that defense. In my community, after a number of deadly accidents involving citizens, the police have stopped the practice of high speed pursuit of those who have stolen a car or have outstanding warrants including some felonies. The Atlanta cop used deadly force because the deceased posed a possible threat with a non-deadly weapon.

A defense could include the cop followed the standard of "The 'reasonableness' of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."
I assume that would involve testimony of departmental heads on appropriate Atlanta PD policy.

What would you have done?
 
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Legacy

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I believe this was the thread that brought up this topic.

Clemson Trustees approve Honors College name change; request authority to restore original name of Tillman Hall

CLEMSON, S.C. — The Clemson University Board of Trustees today approved changing the name of the University’s Honors College to the Clemson University Honors College, effective immediately. The college has been named the Calhoun Honors College since 1982.

The trustees also approved a resolution respectfully requesting authority from the South Carolina General Assembly to restore Tillman Hall to its original name of the Main Building, commonly called “Old Main”.

The Board also adopted a resolution respectfully requesting the South Carolina General Assembly make a one-time exception to the state’s Heritage Act during the 2021 legislative session. This exception would give limited authority to the Board to restore Tillman Hall to its original name of the Main Building. The resolution further affirms that the Board will not be seeking any further exceptions from the Heritage Act beyond this request.

https://www.clemson.edu/about/history/bios/john-c-calhoun.html
https://www.clemson.edu/about/history/bios/ben-tillman.html
 
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phork

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Here is the Atlanta PD manual rule on when you can use deadly force.<br><br>Only argument seems over the officer could have reasonably believed Brooks posed "an immediate threat of serious bodily injury to the officer or others". <a href="https://t.co/qNa7XXQjNl">pic.twitter.com/qNa7XXQjNl</a></p>— (((AG))) (@AGHamilton29) <a href="https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1272191824321556482?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 14, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

My guess is he did know because the tazer is bright yellow. But again we'll never know for sure.
 

Irish#1

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You do realize this isn't the real problem don't you? I am all fine with police reform and trying to figure out how to eliminate the bad cops, but the real problem are the criminals committing the crimes. This dude is alive today if he didn't break the law.


In Indy a few weeks back, a black man was shot and killed by the police following a police chase. While running from the police in his car, he's posting to FB laughing and telling everyone there is no way he's going to jail. He gets out of his car and fires at the police before they shoot him.

There are many here trying to make him out like a martyr. If only he stops when the police tried to pull him over, he's still alive.

Why is everyone afraid to mention this?
 
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Irish#1

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These are all arguments that could be presented at trial because I imagine he will be charged with a homicide.

U.S. Supreme Court's decision in Tennessee v. Garner (471 U.S. 1) ruled that: "deadly force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others."

Your "What ifs" seem to amount to that defense. In my community, after a number of deadly accidents involving citizens, the police have stopped the practice of high speed pursuit of those who have stolen a car or have outstanding warrants including some felonies. The Atlanta cop used deadly force because the deceased posed a possible threat with a non-deadly weapon.

A defense could include the cop followed the standard of "The 'reasonableness' of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."
I assume that would involve testimony of departmental heads on appropriate Atlanta PD policy.

What would you have done?

We need to replace human policemen with robot policemen. Given AI, they will be able to recognize and process the situation much quicker and it takes the human element out of it.
 

Ndaccountant

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You do realize this isn't the real problem don't you? I am all fine with police reform and trying to figure out how to eliminate the bad cops, but the real problem are the criminals committing the crimes. This dude is alive today of he didn't break the law.


In Indy a few weeks back, a black man was shot and killed by the police following a police chase. While running from the police in his car, he's posting to FB laughing and telling everyone there is no way he's going to jail. He gets out of his car and fires at the police before they shoot him.

There are many here trying to make him out like a martyr. If only he stops when the police tried to pull him over, he's still alive.

Why is everyone afraid to mention this?

I don't think people are afraid to mention that.

But seeds of the rotten fruit of today were sowed long before. But this isn't one singular issue. I think I wrote this before in this thread, but the policing is a symptom, not the disease.
 

BeauBenken

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You do realize this isn't the real problem don't you? I am all fine with police reform and trying to figure out how to eliminate the bad cops, but the real problem are the criminals committing the crimes. This dude is alive today of he didn't break the law.


In Indy a few weeks back, a black man was shot and killed by the police following a police chase. While running from the police in his car, he's posting to FB laughing and telling everyone there is no way he's going to jail. He gets out of his car and fires at the police before they shoot him.

There are many here trying to make him out like a martyr. If only he stops when the police tried to pull him over, he's still alive.

Why is everyone afraid to mention this?


Dude, simply breaking the law shouldn't create a potential death sentence before you even go to trial. If the person has been apprehended already the job is done. If they ask for medical help or show signs of medical distress, they still need to be given it.


Imagine getting pulled over for speeding and getting shot and killed because you were reaching for your license and registration and the cop thought you were going for a gun. Would you still want people going, "well if he wouldn't have been breaking the law..."


I get that violent crimes will likely be met with aggressive force and that should be understandable. But a guy who is already on the ground and handcuffed? Someone who isn't involved in any illegal activity but the cops think they are? A case of mistaken identity? Someone who is running from cops but is unarmed? It sounds like you're discounting all these types of cases simply because they were "criminals"; they're still humans.
 

Irish#1

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Dude, simply breaking the law shouldn't create a potential death sentence before you even go to trial. If the person has been apprehended already the job is done. If they ask for medical help or show signs of medical distress, they still need to be given it.


Imagine getting pulled over for speeding and getting shot and killed because you were reaching for your license and registration and the cop thought you were going for a gun. Would you still want people going, "well if he wouldn't have been breaking the law..."


I get that violent crimes will likely be met with aggressive force and that should be understandable. But a guy who is already on the ground and handcuffed? Someone who isn't involved in any illegal activity but the cops think they are? A case of mistaken identity? Someone who is running from cops but is unarmed? It sounds like you're discounting all these types of cases simply because they were "criminals"; they're still humans.

Don't get me wrong, not discounting that at all. I get it and agree. I'm for better policing and have posted as much. For example, if they say they can't breath, the police need to immediately get the person to their feet, call for an ambulance and continue to monitor their health as best possible. I think we need to do a better job of psychiatric screening of police candidates before they are hired and continuous monitoring and testing after they are on the force. That itself would greatly reduce many of these situations.

My point is so many of these police shootings are a result of criminal behavior which is another area where we need to do better.
 
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Irish#1

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I don't think people are afraid to mention that.

But seeds of the rotten fruit of today were sowed long before. But this isn't one singular issue. I think I wrote this before in this thread, but the policing is a symptom, not the disease.

Maybe I'm missing it, but I never see anyone on the news or in the media saying these situations could have been avoided and the person would still be alive if the person had not broken the law. Agree, policing is a symptom, not the disease.
 

BeauBenken

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Don't get me wrong, not discounting that at all. I get it and agree. I'm for better policing and have posted as much. For example, if they say they can't breath, the police need to immediately get the person to their feet, call for an ambulance and continue to monitor their health as best possible. I think we need to do a better job of psychiatric screening of police candidates before they are hired and continuous monitoring and testing after they are on the force. That itself would greatly reduce many of these situations.

My point is so many of these police shootings are a result of criminal behavior which is another area where we need to do better.


But the article you quoted was specifically showing a man saying "I can't breathe" and an officer telling him "I don't care."


Maybe I'm missing it, but I never see anyone on the news or in the media saying these situations could have been avoided and the person would still be alive if the person had not broken the law. Agree, policing is a symptom, not the disease.


I disagree though. Plenty of people have brought up George Floyd's rap sheet.
 

Ndaccountant

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Maybe I'm missing it, but I never see anyone on the news or in the media saying these situations could have been avoided and the person would still be alive if the person had not broken the law. Agree, policing is a symptom, not the disease.

I don't think people go out of their way to broadcast for all to see, but I can think of many times where people have zero complaints about lethal force. Hostage situations, workplace shootings, etc. It's just the focus quickly turns to the criminal's intent, background, etc, instead of the brave services of LE.
 

Irishize

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My guess is he did know because the tazer is bright yellow. But again we'll never know for sure.

You hit the main point. Nobody knows what was running through either man’s head when this was happening. All we can do is speculate and think of what we would do as either man.

As the suspect, regardless of intoxication; I’m confident that even in that state, I would not attempt to do what this man did. He was very docile and cooperative & just freaked when the officer went to officially arrest him for DUI. That’s a bad deal for anyone but if it happens, own up to it, pay the penalty & praise God that no one was hurt as a result of such an irresponsible choice. We all know someone who has a DUI on their record. They’re not proud of it but the hope is they learned from it & got through it w/o injuring others.

As the arresting officer, I have to believe in the back of his mind every day on the beat is the increased scrutiny of every move he & his colleagues make in light of George Floyd. Then, when the suspect resisted, his training kicked in on how to subdue a resisting suspect.

Imagine what was running through both individuals’ minds during the chase. Unfortunately, you can’t call a time out and calmly resolve the issue.

None of us know what was in either man’s heart.

I do know that a very small percentage of LEOs are of the same ilk as Derek Chauvin. Similarly, a very small percentage of the protesters are the ones who initiated the violence, looting, etc.

I believe the same goes for a lot of groups of people:

Not every physician is like Michael Jackson’s doctor
Not every priest is a pedophile
Not every NFL player is domestic abuser
Not every musician is a drug addict
Not every financial advisor is a cheat
Not every school teacher is a sexual predator
Not every dentist is likely to commit suicide
Not every Democrat is a communist
Not every Republican is a fascist

In short, none of us is without sin. I understand how society “ranks” sin. Christ does not.

I pray this incident comes to a just conclusion for all parties but in the heat of what has happened in the past month, I have little hope that due process will be served.
 
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snoopdog

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I don't think people are afraid to mention that.

But seeds of the rotten fruit of today were sowed long before. But this isn't one singular issue. I think I wrote this before in this thread, but the policing is a symptom, not the disease.

I agree...People aren't afraid to publically mention this....they are terrified. They know they will be attacked and vilified and they will be risking their jobs and reputation.
 

ACamp1900

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I agree...People aren't afraid to publically mention this....they are terrified. They know they will be attacked and vilified and they will be risking their jobs and reputation.

I tend to agree ,... we can’t have an honest conversation here. We can only walk in total lockstep with chosen narratives or else.
 

Luckylucci

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I tend to agree ,... we can’t have an honest conversation here. We can only walk in total lockstep with chosen narratives or else.

To me this is the most disingenuous part of it all. They say that we need to have deep and honest conversations. Well, we can go deep and honest until it's something they don't agree with. Then someone is losing their job and becoming a social pariah.
 

Irish#1

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But the article you quoted was specifically showing a man saying "I can't breathe" and an officer telling him "I don't care."

I was responding to the article Legacy quoted. Regardless, the article may have quoted it, but it doesn't mean I condone or condoned the actions of the police. When I first saw the video of George Floyd, the first words out of my mouth, was Oh My God!

Let me try to be clear.
1. If you don't do a crime, there is a good chance you won't end dead at the hands of the police.
2. If you are apprehended by the police, I hope they only use force as a last resort and then use as little force as possible. If the detainee says they can't breathe or is hurting, get them medical attention immediately.


I disagree though. Plenty of people have brought up George Floyd's rap sheet.

My apologies here. I was referring primarily to the Dreasjon Reed incident.
 

ulukinatme

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I get what Irish#1 is saying. Police need some reform, but if people could stop breaking the law you've addressed the root problem and it would prevent confrontations all together. Chris Rock said this 20 years ago, the very first tip is as true today as it was then:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/uj0mtxXEGE8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Irishize

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More of this please

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Well this is awesome. And what Americans are doing in every city. The USA has its problems, but these guys reflect the soul of who we are. <a href="https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7">https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7</a></p>— Megyn Kelly (@megynkelly) <a href="https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1272502642003116036?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 15, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

ACamp1900

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More of this please

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Well this is awesome. And what Americans are doing in every city. The USA has its problems, but these guys reflect the soul of who we are. <a href="https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7">https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7</a></p>— Megyn Kelly (@megynkelly) <a href="https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1272502642003116036?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 15, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is the majority as I see it,... it doesn’t sell however
 

ulukinatme

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More of this please

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Well this is awesome. And what Americans are doing in every city. The USA has its problems, but these guys reflect the soul of who we are. <a href="https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7">https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7</a></p>— Megyn Kelly (@megynkelly) <a href="https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1272502642003116036?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 15, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is the majority as I see it,... it doesn’t sell however

I agree, we need more of this and to show people that it's not all the hatred. The majority of us just want everyone to get along and forget race.
 

Irish#1

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More of this please

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Well this is awesome. And what Americans are doing in every city. The USA has its problems, but these guys reflect the soul of who we are. <a href="https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7">https://t.co/mLutp2xOI7</a></p>— Megyn Kelly (@megynkelly) <a href="https://twitter.com/megynkelly/status/1272502642003116036?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">June 15, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

"A picture is worth a thousand words".
 

Legacy

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South Bend mayor to release police officer discipline plan, bans police from using chokeholds
By Jeff Parrott South Bend Tribune 6 hrs ago

SOUTH BEND — South Bend Mayor James Mueller said Monday that later this week he will release a police officer discipline matrix, the department will ban choke holds, and he’ll ask a consultant when the city can release its recommendations for police reforms called for after the officer killing of Eric Logan a year ago. (cont)

The SB Trib has documented a number of disciplinary actions in their Police Dept dating back to 2012, though no officer has been fired and some continue to exercise excessive use of force, sometimes deadly.

SCOTUS's decision (posted above) in Tennessee v. Garner (471 U.S. 1) ruled that: "deadly force may not be used unless it is necessary to prevent the escape and the officer has probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a significant threat of death or serious physical injury to the officer or others." leaves it up to the perception of the officer. You can drive a truck through that loophole.

Timeline of events that escalated police tension in South Bend
South Bend Tribune Report Jun 23, 2019

The "decision matrix" Mueller is instituting has been discussed for over a year. Wiretaps in 2012 on the PD recorded them using racial slurs and discussing breaking the law. In 2012 three white police officers - Eric Mentz, Michael Stuk and Aaron Knepper - entered a black family’s home without permission and handcuffed, punched and used a stun gun on 17-year-old Deshawn Franklin, who was asleep in his bed and whom the police mistakenly believed was a suspect. The department said officers committed misconduct. Their name come up repeatedly including Devin Butler's incident. The matrix, sought by clergy leaders belonging to the group Faith in Indiana, would set up clearer guidelines on the types of punishments for officers who commit misconduct.

Police Chief Scott Ruszkowski and Michael Patton, the city’s diversity and inclusion officer, called George Floyd's death from a knee to the neck a “horror.”

Ruszkowski said.
“Any cop that thinks or relishes in this idea that what we saw was acceptable needs to turn in their badge right now, and those who know officers that may feel that way, need to tell us so that we can take their badge from them,”
I previously posted this in-depth examination by the SB Trib and ProPublica under this Police State thread, but it's worth reposting.
Nearly all officers in charge of Elkhart police have been disciplined. The chief keeps promoting them. By Christian Sheckler, South Bend Tribune and Ken Armstrong, ProPublica Nov 18, 2018

Excerpt:
Twenty-eight of the Elkhart Police Department’s 34 supervisors, from chief down to sergeant, have disciplinary records. The reasons range from carelessness to incompetence to serious, even criminal, misconduct.

Fifteen of them have served suspensions, including Windbigler himself, who was once suspended for three days and ordered to pay punitive damages in a federal lawsuit alleging excessive force.

How many SBPD officers feel that way about the Floyd murder and how many know someone who does and will report them to the Chief to take their badge away?
 
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dublinirish

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TorontoGold

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That article is laughable, they misstate what was being shouted in the video "He's going F$%#ing to kill you" is what the people tearing down the statue were shouting. That video is more tame than any high school fight, give the incel a gun and someone gets shot.
 

Sea Turtle

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That article is laughable, they misstate what was being shouted in the video "He's going F$%#ing to kill you" is what the people tearing down the statue were shouting. That video is more tame than any high school fight, give the incel a gun and someone gets shot.

The guy is walking away and trying to avoid a fight. He is mobbed, hit with a skateboard, thrown to the ground before pulling the gun out. All while people are screaming 'get him' and 'were going to kill you'.

I don't care if he's a member of anything, you have a right to fucking defend yourself from people trying to bash your head in.
 
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